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» Wizards.Com Boards   » Card Rulings and Strategies   » Smoochum or Cleffa? Which do you prefer? (Page 1)

 
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Author Topic: Smoochum or Cleffa? Which do you prefer?
MrPokemonChallenge
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Member # 117167



posted December 05, 2002 07:51 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
To help you decide, here are the card texts:

Cleffa (Neo Genesis)
{C}
Baby Pokémon (Evolves into Clefairy)

{C} Eeeeeeek Shuffle your hand into your deck, then draw 7 cards.

Smoochum (Neo Revelations)
{P}
Baby Pokémon (Evolves into Jynx)
{C} Psykiss Flip a coin. If heads, choose a Special Energy card attached to 1 of your opponent’s Pokémon. Your opponent shuffles that card into his or her deck.

I like Smoochum better. It can face those Special Energy decks, and it isn't scared of one Sneasel.

[ December 14, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: MrPokemonChallenge ]

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Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

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Porygone3
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posted December 05, 2002 08:59 PM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
its a pole. Gee... let me think hard about this. Would I rather flip a coin and MAYBE put a specal engery back into there deck... (assuming they even have a specal engery out) Or would I want a new hand of 7 cards or the ablity to draw 2 cards.... oh boy I just cant deside.

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Maverick Hunter Zero

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posted December 05, 2002 09:03 PM      Profile for Maverick Hunter Zero   Email Maverick Hunter Zero    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Only in certain circumstances do I use Cleffa. Smoochum should belong in every deck. About the "far too many, far too few" scenario up top...it should be reversed. Do you agree with the comparison?
I couldn't disagree more...

Slap down a cleffa and we have a ready made, reusable, Slowking proof Elm. It can be used to constantly replenish your deck should you plan to try and stall the opponent, and it doesn't require ANY coinflips. NOTHING is left to chance.

Smoochum on the other hand, does NOTHING to help your hand, which IS most important, only TEMPORARILY tosses away an energy which the opponent can easily get back with Elm/Cleffa, and even then it requires a coinflip.

quote:
Not every deck needs card-drawing engines
You're joking, right? Nooo, no no no... You see, excessive card drawing is what MAKES Smoochum obselete. A mere 50% chance of removing ONE special energy card, back into the opponent's deck pales in Comparison to a new hand, especially after you've just USED an entire hand to make your opponent's life harder. Now, if it DISCARDED the energy card, it would be MUCH more useful, but since it only goes back into the deck, Smoochum isn't anywhere NEAR as useful as Cleffa.

Cleffa > Smoochum

[ December 05, 2002, 09:11 PM: Message edited by: Maverick Hunter Zero ]

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SuperSaiyanEevee
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posted December 05, 2002 09:38 PM      Profile for SuperSaiyanEevee      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
In my opinion Cleffa is better, but if you like Smoochum go ahead and use'em. But Cleffa does let you get a new fresh hand of 7 cards and with it's baby power it could last awhile.

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themcster

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posted December 06, 2002 10:31 AM      Profile for themcster   Email themcster    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
smoochum is a flip, energy removal 2 is a flip.

nuff said

cleffa wins!

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John Kulp
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posted December 06, 2002 10:50 AM      Profile for John Kulp   Email John Kulp    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I'd say put in both. My response would be it depends what you use each one for. But since the thread seems pro-Cleffa I guess I'll be pro-Smoochum. A Smoochum would be great in a Energy Removal deck. Especially in this Gen Sneasel/Recycle E(I'm beginning to hate those)heavy environment. And with the baby power there is a reasonable chance of protection. You remove the energy and they have to burn their deck to get it back. I've won a very important battle this way. I won't waste my time with Cleffa and its abilities since EVERYBODY knows what it can do. Like anything else you don't know until you actually play with it in the field. Like I said put Smoochum in the right deck and I think you'll see its potential. What you'll actually do is another story.

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From: Pittsburgh,PA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
MrPokemonChallenge
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posted December 06, 2002 12:50 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I'm seeing a little of both. Of course I have to prefer Smoochum seeing Cleffa is banned in my area. It's not the TCG League there, it's a city code. Of course, this city code doesn't affect Unlimited.

[ December 14, 2002, 06:14 PM: Message edited by: MrPokemonChallenge ]

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I wish that there would be a Pokémon game show.

Anyone up for making a TV edition of the Pokémon TCG?

Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

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yoshi1001

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posted December 06, 2002 01:04 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I really can't see how to compare them-they don't even serve similar purposes. Obviously Cleffa is more general purpose, but smoochum might be better in some cases.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Maverick Hunter Zero

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posted December 06, 2002 04:15 PM      Profile for Maverick Hunter Zero   Email Maverick Hunter Zero    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
[Roll Eyes]

Listen... if you're simply comparing those two cards, Cleffa is easily the best.

quote:
Can Cleffa go at your opponent? I would say no. Just guaranteed seven cards. Smoochum is not guaranteed, but it can hurt your opponent where it hurts: the Special Energy.



JUST seven cards? You make it sound like it's something small. Among those seven cards, we could have cards vital to survive, counter gyms, cards we've been searching through our deck for, healing cards, needed evolutions, needed basics, something that'll guarantee you the win, MORE drawing cards, whatever...

On the other hand, we have something that in exchange for a waste of a turn, gives a CHANCE to put a SPECIAL energy card back into the opponent's DECK... Which, I might add, they could easily retreive with the use of Trainers such as Elm, Oak's Research, Bill, Copycat, or *gasp* CLEFFA. Dark Feraligatr has to be active in order to stop the baby's attack, Oak's revenge isn't legal in modified, and cleffa has the FEWEST downsides...

[ December 06, 2002, 04:19 PM: Message edited by: Maverick Hunter Zero ]

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From: The strange, frightening world known as "SoCali" | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
SuperSaiyanEevee
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posted December 06, 2002 05:07 PM      Profile for SuperSaiyanEevee      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
And Cleffa actually would be better cuz not every deck has special nrg's.

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SlimeyGrimey
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posted December 06, 2002 10:42 PM      Profile for SlimeyGrimey      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
My simulation of the scenario:
Player A: yesss Smoochum, attach a recycle, c'mon heads, heads, heads, yes I got heads!
Player B: fortunately for me I have an Oak's research in my hand (which I would have used anyway) (uses oak's research) unfortunately I didn't get my dark back for murkrow, fortunately I got an elm. (After playing some cards) ELm, oh loook I got my Darkness energy back and killed Smoochum, that sure was an easy prize don't you think? [Roll Eyes] [NoNoNo]

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From: Edmonton,AB,Canada | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged
MrPokemonChallenge
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posted December 08, 2002 07:26 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
You have five cards left in your deck. You have one card in your hand. Cleffa is active and uses its attack. You shuffle the one card, then draw all six cards from the deck. Your opponent then takes his/her turn. On your next turn, you lose because you can't draw a card.

That's what a stupid person would do with Cleffa. I personally don't know any of these people; then again I can't use Cleffa in my area.

[ December 14, 2002, 06:16 PM: Message edited by: MrPokemonChallenge ]

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I wish that there would be a Pokémon game show.

Anyone up for making a TV edition of the Pokémon TCG?

Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Maverick Hunter Zero

Member # 6223



posted December 08, 2002 08:29 PM      Profile for Maverick Hunter Zero   Email Maverick Hunter Zero    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Here's another downside to Cleffa:

You have five cards left in your deck. You have one card in your hand. Cleffa is active and uses its attack. You shuffle the one card, then draw all six cards from the deck. Your opponent then takes his/her turn. On your next turn, you lose because you can't draw a card.

I say that Smoochum would even be better with cards that return cards to your deck. This way the game lasts longer and wins are rarely achieved by decking.



...What on earth? I have 5 cards in my deck, 1 in my hand, and I'm going to Eeeeeeek? Who precisely would be stupid enough to do that? [Bored] Again, putting a special energy card back into an opponent's deck, especially for a coin flip, is NOTHING SPECIAL. People run massive amounts of card drawing for a reason. With 4 of said special energy in their deck (if less, it's probably not vital to them attacking) they're GOING to be able to get it back. Elm, Oak's Research, Bill, Copycat, Bill's Maintenance, Cleffa, Mary's Impulse... People tend to run three or more of these cards, and even then three to four copies of each card. They'll easily have another Darkness/Metal energy in no time at all.

You don't seem to understand that it's EASY for them to get back the energy they need within one or two turns. With Cleffa, I can get a new hand ANYTIME, A cleffa on the bench with an energy is almost a guarantee you'll never find yourself stuck without a card you need.

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From: The strange, frightening world known as "SoCali" | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
BJJ763

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posted December 09, 2002 05:33 AM      Profile for BJJ763   Email BJJ763    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Here's another downside to Cleffa:

You have five cards left in your deck. You have one card in your hand. Cleffa is active and uses its attack. You shuffle the one card, then draw all six cards from the deck. Your opponent then takes his/her turn. On your next turn, you lose because you can't draw a card.


I read this last night and can only compare this to: You draw your last card. You notice your opponent has no cards in his/her deck. You attack with Smoochum, getting heads. You force them to shuffle a Darkness energy into their deck. Your turn is over. They draw that Darkness Energy Card, attach it, and say "Go." You can't draw so you lose. Times like that i wish i had a Cleffa.......

Now for reality, you have 1 card in your deck but 9 in your hand. Your opponent has 2 cards. You draw. YOu can't KO their Steelix with 4 Metal Energies so you.............EEEEEEEK and put all 10 cards back and draw 7. Your opponent draws has 1 card left. They look nervous. They try to Tail Crush for the win. Tails. You draw a card. You pass. THey draw their last card. They look ill. They announce they will roll for Tail Crush. THey roll......

Almost a true story, the Active was not a Steelix with 4 Metals, i forgot what it was. Cleffa - draw power, stalling, and anti-decking all in one.

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WizPoG_Pop

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posted December 09, 2002 06:48 AM      Profile for WizPoG_Pop   Email WizPoG_Pop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
A couple of posts were deleted for outright mocking.
In case you need to be told, mocking is a form of bashing and is against the board rules.

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Otaku

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posted December 09, 2002 08:47 AM      Profile for Otaku   Email Otaku    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I feel I should add my two cents, as I have run both. Cleffa is a deck staple for Pokemon. It's as simple as that. Can a deck be good and win without it? Of course. However, that deck would most likely be enhanced by including Cleffa. I say most likely in case there is some obscure, bizarre combo deck that literally has no room for any Cleffas. Now, when I ran Smoohum in decks designed for it, it did okay... except it had a major problem-I misread it! [Embarrassed] I thought it did discard! No one caguht that error until now, when I read this thread! [ROFL] ortunately, there were no important matches decided by it, so its just a humbling experience for us. As for the actual topic, When I thought it discarded, Smoochum did indeed serve a purpose. Now? It sits in its binder and box, doing nothing. I might as well play ER2 instead of it, unless I desperately need a Basic which can remove energy. Sure Slowking makes ER2 more pathetic, but at least it doesn't risk a prize half the time. [Roll Eyes] In Unlimited, SMoochum really has no place- there are superior energy removing Pokemon (though they are evos) and Trainers (ER/SER). I ran an Energy Removal themed deck in both unlimited and Modified, and Smoochum just doesn't work. As for those energy problems for "Special" energies-they rlly are esay to replace in ost cases. Have some good examples been given? Yeah, but most are extremely rare. You remove my Murkrow's Darkness Energy? I'll probably jsut wait you out then, building up a bg hitter (or another 'Krow) on my bench, since I'll have likely Mean-Looked Smoochum. Finally, think about tis-most Celfairy are only about as useful as most Jynx, but all the Cefables are much better than any of the Jynx, especially in UNlimited where we have the glorious Metronome of Jungle Clefable. This is just really a non-issue.

John Kulp: If NG Sneasel is your problem, SMoochum isn't the answer. Baby Power isn't much protection-since if you have any non-Babies on your bench I'll GoW it for a likley Prize.

If I ahve missed something, feel free to point it out. [Smile]

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Raikou1234
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posted December 09, 2002 09:23 AM      Profile for Raikou1234      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Smmochum against a Steelix isn't going to help... They should usually have more then one metal on it anyway...Also, they can use Copycat, Bill, Bill's Teleporter, Elm, Oak's Research, etc. Those ae in a lot of decks and will get it back...And if that doesn't work, they can use switch and use something else, or even eek w/ a cleffa....With a lot of Babies, if smoochum is against a baby, they have to flip 2...And, Steelix isn't used as much anymore...Even with Kingdra playing recycle, they'll get it back easily with awesome speed, or against a Murkrow, if you get rid of a Dark, and they can't find one, they'll just retreat...And then, they'll just eek/wait for one.... When you post in the decks in the Deck Forum, didn't you notice that every deck in there had Cleffa? It was for a major reason....If they start out with a bad hand, they could use Pokemon Trader, and get out a cleffa and Eeeeeeek...Also, if you look in the decks, none have smoochum? Why? Because it's not good enough for a deck.....

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matthewssandslash
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posted December 09, 2002 09:22 PM      Profile for matthewssandslash   Email matthewssandslash    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
HA!

I have been in more than one situation where Cleffa has saved me from decking.

Since I actually have a brain, I have never decked myself by Eeeeeeeking.

But come on, what kind of idiot would Eeeeeeek without enough cads to last him? If you're the sort of person who would do that, exactly how did you last this long in the game??

Now.

You have yet to come up with ONE SINGLE scenario where Smoochum is better than Cleffa. Your Murkrow/Steelix situation was ridiculously lopsided.

Let's put the Smoochum versus the four-Metal Steelix. PsyKiss... Yay! Heads! Uh-oh, now he Elms, and... he doesn't get the Metal back. Oh wait, it doesn't matter, because I'm dead anyway. Tail Crush, heads. I have no card-drawing engine, and I'm stuck drawing energies the rest of the game (which isn't long because I have no way to stop his Steelix) Now, with Cleffa... Ouch! 4-Metal Steelix! Eeeeeeek... Wow! Awesome hand! Hey, he's using Tail Crush! Heads! Dang it... but wait! I promote a random free retreater (perhaps another Cleffa, a Tyrouge, maybe), and use the cards I drew to lay down a Slugma, attach a Fire, and use Entei's PokéPower to get 3 Fire on it! My opponent uses Tail Crush! Heads! I promote the Slugma, evolve it, attach a Fire, and Lava Flow his Steelix and his 4 Metal energies away! My opponent resigns! Why? Because the card drawing got me a Magcargo and the cards I needed to support it! Whereas a Smoochum would've just plain BIT!

I challenge you to come up with ANY *realistic* scenario where Smoochum > Cleffa. This is actually really silly. I count Cleffa as the greatest card in the Pokémon TCG. I count Smoochum as easily the worst card in Revelation, and one of the bottom 15 cards in the game. Probably the second worst baby of all, behind Promo Pichu. Oh wait, you're going to say Promo Pichu is awesome, now, and we should play it instead of Neo.

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SauroN

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posted December 09, 2002 11:45 PM      Profile for SauroN   Email SauroN    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
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[ December 14, 2002, 09:05 PM: Message edited by: Wizpog_Sensei ]

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Wai-Lam
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posted December 10, 2002 01:37 AM      Profile for Wai-Lam   Email Wai-Lam    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Erm....
Smoochum CAN prove to be very useful after you've Taunt-ed a Slowking and your opponent attached Darkness to it trying to kill it...

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Meganium_Master
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posted December 10, 2002 09:45 AM      Profile for Meganium_Master   Email Meganium_Master    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
You can't be serious! When you play Pokemon TCG you need to get cards that work without coins. Of course you can put some cards but if you put too many, there is a flip-a-coin deck.
Cleffa it's an excellent card-drawing. Smoochum could be a problem with Seasel or Steelix decks but they also have cards for searching that Energy.

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MrPokemonChallenge
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posted December 10, 2002 01:16 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Do I know who was doing the mocking? Does anybody?

Enough of that. I'm seeing very good responses here.

[ December 14, 2002, 06:17 PM: Message edited by: MrPokemonChallenge ]

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I wish that there would be a Pokémon game show.

Anyone up for making a TV edition of the Pokémon TCG?

Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Meganium45

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posted December 10, 2002 01:25 PM      Profile for Meganium45   Email Meganium45    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Where's KC the Professor of Poke when we need him to save his area's honor?

What is this debate?

Top 5 babies are:
1. Cleffa
2. Tyrogue
3. Pichu
4. Magby
5. Elekid
6. Promo Cleffa

I place this Smoochum just under the value of an ER2, at least then you get to discard the energy. My goodness. After Revelation there are no good babies. They just stopped making them.

Smoochum is trash, as are all of the other E-babies.

Sorry, that's my feelings

Meganium 45

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BJJ763

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posted December 10, 2002 01:59 PM      Profile for BJJ763   Email BJJ763    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Now that you don't have a choice, you MUST use Eeeeeeek and draw cards. This empties your deck.

Um Why must you use Eeeeeeek? The only way a player would ever do that is if they know that there is nothing left in their deck to save them. Otherwise, they would say "Your turn."

Replace "Cleffa" with "Smoochum" in your example and the result will be the same:

Murkrow is facing Smoochum. Murkrow does the baby flip. It's heads. Murkrow uses Mean Look. Now Smoochum cannot retreat.

You, playing Smoochum, have just one card in your hand and five left in the deck, after your regular draw. You attack with Psykiss and GET HEADS!! [Bounce] Good-bye Darkness Energy! Oh wait you're still Mean Looked. [Bored]
5 turns later you go to draw but can't you lose.

Now how about a more realistic example:

Your draw 7 cards - Cleffa, Trader, Slowking, Murkrow, P, Focus Band, Double Gust.

Since you're going first, Cleffa active, Bench Murkrow. Attach P to Cleffa. Possibly the Focus Band too. If your opponent has a Baby active and not one on the Bench, Double Gust. Trade Slowking for Slowpoke. Bench Slowpoke. That leaves you with a hand of 1 or 2 cards. Need more cards. Eeeeeeek. Get a nice hand of 7 new cards to use next turn.

This situation also applied midgame too.

Please replace "Cleffa" with "Smoochum" and tell me how you'd play it.

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From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
kurobatto
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posted December 10, 2002 03:58 PM      Profile for kurobatto   Email kurobatto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Far too many decks use Cleffa.

There's good reason why many decks use Cleffa, you know. Drawing is the basic staple of ANY deck that hopes to get its strategy off of the ground.

quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Far too few use Smoochum.

Gee, I wonder why. Maybe because it's not worth using? hmmmm... Think about that one.

quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Not every deck needs card-drawing engines, and those engines do not have to be Cleffa.

Yes, every deck does need card-drawing if they hope to get their strategy off the ground. Card drawing puts much needed cards to your strategy within your grasp. Most of the time, those engines do have to include Cleffa because it's simply one of the best card drawers out there.

quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Can Cleffa go at your opponent? I would say no. Just guaranteed seven cards.

Is that Cleffa's purpose? No, it isn't. Cleffa's purpose is to draw the cards that will help "go at your opponent."

quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Smoochum is not guaranteed, but it can hurt your opponent where it hurts: the Special Energy.

Exactly; you said it yourself. Smoochum is not guaranteed which makes it bad enough. Don't forget; the energy goes back to your opponent's deck if successful, but most likely your opponent (using draw power engines like Cleffa) will get it back. There are many draw cards which will almost definetely get you back the lost Special Energy after being Psykissed.

quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Look at this situation from the perspective of Pokémon like Steelix (Neo Genesis) and Murkrow (also Neo Genesis):

Cleffa, from Steelix perspective: Ha ha ha! That puny card-drawer harming me? Attatch the TM to it, then consider having it face me. It can't hurt me!

Do you have any idea how ridiculous that sounds? [Roll Eyes] Once again, the "puny-card drawer" draws you the cards that are needed to take down the Steelix (and Cleffa does that very well). It isn't meant to harm the Steelix.

quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Smoochum, from Murkrow perspective: Oh no! If that thing flips heads, out goes the Energy I need to attack! I have a {D} and a {D}{C}, and losing the {D} would be devastating!

Like I've said before; Cleffa and other card drawing engines will get back the lost Special Energy easily. Plus, consider that most Murkrow or Steelix decks play 4 Darkness Energy or 4 Metal Energy.

quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Here's another downside to Cleffa:

You have five cards left in your deck. You have one card in your hand. Cleffa is active and uses its attack. You shuffle the one card, then draw all six cards from the deck. Your opponent then takes his/her turn. On your next turn, you lose because you can't draw a card.

I say that Smoochum would even be better with cards that return cards to your deck. This way the game lasts longer and wins are rarely achieved by decking.

I don't know of any decent player that would even consider Eeeeeeeking in such a situation. It's just common sense if you think about it.

quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Earlier I contrased a situation where Cleffa faced Steelix and Smoochum faced Murkrow. Now it's Cleffa's turn to face Murkrow.

Murkrow is facing Cleffa. Murkrow does the baby flip. It's heads. Murkrow uses Mean Look. Now Cleffa cannot retreat.

You, playing Cleffa, have just one card in your hand and five left in the deck, after your regular draw. Now that you don't have a choice, you MUST use Eeeeeeek and draw cards. This empties your deck.

Murkrow again. Flips for the Baby flip. Tails. No Feint Attack there. Cleffa's turn again. You try to draw a card, but there isn't any. Murkrow wins.

Why MUST you Eeeeeeek? Go check the Pokemon rulebook please; you have a choice on whether you attack or not. There are cards to get you out of a Mean Look too such as Double Gust, Switch, Warp Point, Gust of Wind, and probably more.

If you still think Smoochum is better than Cleffa, I suggest just playtesting both of them (in not just a few games, but a lot of games). You will see, if you play smart (unlike your examples), that Cleffa is clearly the better card.

[ December 10, 2002, 04:07 PM: Message edited by: kurobatto ]

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