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Author Topic: Metronome Flamethrower for free?
PokePop

Member # 8



posted September 26, 2002 05:50 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I notice that the Expedition Charmeleon has Flamethrower.
The discard of the Fire energy card is now just an attack effect. It doesn't say "In order to do this attack..." or "...or this attack does nothing". It just states "Discard 1 [Red Mana] energy card attached to Charmeleon".

It seems to me, based on the rule of doing everything that you can that an attack directs you to do, that if the attack was copied and the copier did not have a [Red Mana] energy card attached, it would still be able to do the attack. If it had a [Red Mana] card attached, however, it would have to be discarded.

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yoshi1001

Member # 825



posted September 26, 2002 06:22 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Interesting. Indeed (going by the card scan) it does not state any effect of not discarding the card. Looks like we've got another chat question. Fortunately, it probably won't go up against attack copiers too often.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
SteveP

Member # 14743


posted September 26, 2002 08:41 AM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
This is yet another example of either a GROSS mis-translation or WOTC purposely changing the attack from its Japanese version. FYI, here's the Japanese version of Charmeleon according to Usagi-chan:

quote:
(RRC) Flamethrower 50
Discard 1 (R) Energy card attached to Charmeleon in order to use this attack.

BTW, this Charmeleon was reprinted in English from the Web-card set.

[ September 26, 2002, 08:46 AM: Message edited by: SteveP ]

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PokePop

Member # 8



posted September 26, 2002 09:17 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
My understanding is that TPC supplies WotC with the English text that they are to use.
So, if it is an error or a purposeful change, usually the group to ask is... I hate to say it... TPC.

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SteveP

Member # 14743


posted September 26, 2002 09:53 AM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
As a software engineer, I equate card mistranslations to bugs in software. When you uncover a bug in software, you'll usually get one-of-three responses from the developer:

1. That's not a bug. It's a feature. I meant to do that. (That's what happened with Slowking.)

2. It's a bug alright. However, it's too expensive to fix, so we'll just have to live with it. (That's what happened with non-holo Dark Vileplume.)

3. I guess I need to remove that bug. (That's what happened with Expedition Darkness Energy.)

So, we'll just have to wait and see how this "bug" is handled. Until then, we'll just have to live with it (it can be Metronomed for free).

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CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak

Member # 37400


posted September 26, 2002 10:27 AM      Profile for CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak   Email CPUSrchDiscarding2forOak    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
What, like having something from the new sets that can be Clefabled is a bad thing? I think it was a total rip in the first place that all the LC Pokemon got re-written so they can't be Metronomed. *sigh*

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From: West Mifflin, PA | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
SteveP

Member # 14743


posted September 26, 2002 12:50 PM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
CPU, a one-energy colorless Metronome is considered by most to be broken. Regardless, the "bad" part about this version of Flamethrower is that it appears to be a mis-translation.

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LuckyCal

Member # 2435



posted September 26, 2002 05:37 PM      Profile for LuckyCal   Email LuckyCal    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
This "bug" has perpetuated itself through the entire Expedition set! It appears that if Togetic/Togepi/Smeargle/Clefairy/Clefable/Misty's Psyduck uses its Metronome-esque attack to copy Flamethrower as written, it attempts to discard a [Red Mana] energy if it has one attached. Otherwise it does as much of the attack as it can. That is, just the damage.

If this is, in fact, going to be the ruling, it's just one more reason not to use Charizard anymore (besides the fact that it is no longer Resistant to Fighting).

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aragornanduril
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posted September 27, 2002 06:09 AM      Profile for aragornanduril      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
**STEVEP**
What do you mean by
2. It's a bug alright. However, it's too expensive to fix, so we'll just have to live with it. (That's what happened with non-holo Dark Vileplume.)?
I have a Dark Vileplume but mine is holo. What is the difference and what is the bug? Also what is the bug in the exped shadow energy?
And what is Slowkings "bug"?
Sorry I am new. Don't hate.

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From: Oklahoma | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted September 27, 2002 06:56 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by aragornanduril:
**STEVEP**
What do you mean by
2. It's a bug alright. However, it's too expensive to fix, so we'll just have to live with it. (That's what happened with non-holo Dark Vileplume.)?
I have a Dark Vileplume but mine is holo. What is the difference and what is the bug? Also what is the bug in the exped shadow energy?
And what is Slowkings "bug"?
Sorry I am new. Don't hate.

Don't worry. We like new players on the boards. [Smile]

The non-holo DV was printed with a weakness to Fighting instead of Fire! You play it as printed, so you can use that to your advantage in a game.

The Expedition Darkness Energy was printed without mentioning that the bonus 10 Damage was only against the Defending Pokemon. This has been Errata'd. You play it as if it were printed the same as the Neo: Genesis version.

Slowking's Pokemon Power, as origially printed in Japan, only worked while he was the Active Pokemon. It did not work from the Bench as in the WotC printing. There is uncertainty whether this change was made on purpose (to combat "Trainermon", decks with 40+ Trainers) or if it was an error.

On a side note, Unown D, M, and N only protect other Unowns in their original Japanese versions. So that's another big change in the WotC versions.

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LuckyCal

Member # 2435



posted October 05, 2002 10:32 AM      Profile for LuckyCal   Email LuckyCal    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I'm reviving this topic, since the original question hasn't been answered yet. Keep in mind that TPC didn't really want these e-cards played with the other cards. So we probably won't be able to get an answer from them about it. That leaves the WotC rulings team to try to decipher it in context. Somebody needs to ask at the next chat (or sooner). Until there is an official answer, I'm going to be ruling that the text should have the "or this attack does nothing" text. Hopefully we'll have an answer from the higher-ups soon.

--------------------
He's always ready, he's always set, he's always well prepared. He's the most peculiar man you'd care to meet. -- Barenaked Ladies (The King Of Bedside Manor)

I know, but I still believe in ignorance as my best defense. -- Matchbox Twenty (Argue)

Have you seen Ajax?

From: Springfield, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
SteveP

Member # 14743


posted October 05, 2002 02:11 PM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
LuckyCal, I'd be more inclined to use the Japanese version of this card until WOTC rules. FYI, here's that version from Usagi-Chan:

quote:
Discard 1 (R) Energy card attached to Charmeleon in order to use this attack.


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PokePop

Member # 8



posted October 05, 2002 07:05 PM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I say until there is a ruling, play it as printed.

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LuckyCal

Member # 2435



posted October 05, 2002 10:45 PM      Profile for LuckyCal   Email LuckyCal    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Play it as printed? Elaborate on how, in the case of Clefable, Smeargle, Misty's Psyduck, Togetic, etc. are we supposed to "play it as printed?" The problem is, we don't know whether the attack does nothing if the Energy card isn't discarded, or if the discard is a requirement in order to do the attack. Or do we go with "do as much of the card's effect as you can." As printed, it's ambiguous.

--------------------
He's always ready, he's always set, he's always well prepared. He's the most peculiar man you'd care to meet. -- Barenaked Ladies (The King Of Bedside Manor)

I know, but I still believe in ignorance as my best defense. -- Matchbox Twenty (Argue)

Have you seen Ajax?

From: Springfield, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
NoPoke

Member # 42315


posted October 06, 2002 02:46 AM      Profile for NoPoke   Email NoPoke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Until we are told otherwise, Metronoming a Flamethrower attack will only discard a fire energy if there is one attached.

My guess is that Pop was raising the issue in much the same way as previous discussions about the impact of the 'NEW' Darkness template clarified the general view that the NEW Dark needed fixing.

Remember that Wizards don't like Errata. What happens if we use the new Flamethrower text as the definative definition for that attack?

[ October 06, 2002, 02:52 AM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]

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From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted October 06, 2002 08:48 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by LuckyCal:
Play it as printed? Elaborate on how, in the case of Clefable, Smeargle, Misty's Psyduck, Togetic, etc. are we supposed to "play it as printed?" The problem is, we don't know whether the attack does nothing if the Energy card isn't discarded, or if the discard is a requirement in order to do the attack. Or do we go with "do as much of the card's effect as you can." As printed, it's ambiguous.

Yes, I meant to say to use the "do as much of the card's effect as you can" principle.

I would not go so far as to say to use the E cards wording as a template for previous attacks of the same name. The only reason Legendary Collection's Charmeleon's Flamethrower overrode the Base Set Charmeleon's Flamethrower is because those are the same card, including card level.

By the way, what level is the Expedition Charmeleon?

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Shadowcat1
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posted October 06, 2002 07:07 PM      Profile for Shadowcat1   Email Shadowcat1    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Well if I remember correctly the wording of Clefable's metronome allows you to do discard attacks without discarding cards. It's been this way for quite some time. Now Togetic makes you discard....
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yoshi1001

Member # 825



posted October 06, 2002 07:09 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Depends how the attack is worded. The phrase "in order to use this attack" must be present for Metronome to ignore that directive.

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