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Author Topic: retreating light dragonite with recycle
themcster

Member # 1207


posted February 02, 2003 10:56 PM      Profile for themcster   Email themcster    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Ok, this issue came up at a game i was playing last night.

I have an active light dragonite. It has various special energy cards attached including recycle energy. I try to retreat my dragonite with recycle. Does the recycle come back to my hand? Or does it get discarded due to its pokemon power?

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From: horsham, west sussex. england | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Big_Pappa_Poke

Member # 3495



posted February 02, 2003 11:08 PM      Profile for Big_Pappa_Poke   Email Big_Pappa_Poke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
It comes back to your hand.

When you discard the energy, the text of the card kicks in and the recycle comes back to your hand.

Since it is in the discard pile (thus no longer in play and thus not affected by L. Dragonite) and it has come from play, its effect kicks in.

[ February 02, 2003, 11:09 PM: Message edited by: Big_Pappa_Poke ]

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Big Daddy Snorlax

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posted February 02, 2003 11:08 PM      Profile for Big Daddy Snorlax   Email Big Daddy Snorlax    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Your troubles shall be solved if you look to the Compendium [Wink]

quote:
Q. Light Dragonite retreats and discards a Recycle Energy in the process. According to the rulebook, the energy must be discarded before the pokemon is placed on the bench. Recycle Energy does not come back to your hand? Is this correct?

A. Correct. (Sep 26, 2002 WotC Chat, Q566)

Q. An active Light Dragonite faints with a Recycle Energy attached. Both the Recycle Energy and Light Dragonite hit the discard pile at the same time. Is this a case of two things happenning at once - Light Dragonite's Pokemon Power being turned off and Recycle Energy hitting the discard pile at the same time? So the controller could choose which happens first?

A. Good question, yet another example of what the rules DON'T cover. My first answer would be that it would not come back as you discard all of the cards (Pokemon, Tools, Energy, etc) all at once (according to the rule book). (Sep 26, 2002 WotC Chat, Q561)

BDS

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From: Oregon | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Big_Pappa_Poke

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posted February 02, 2003 11:16 PM      Profile for Big_Pappa_Poke   Email Big_Pappa_Poke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I can see where they come up with that.

But (there's always a but),

If that is the case (and obviously that is the ruling from the chat) it then should be the same way for cards "coming into play" which there are rulings that the effects of Full Heal and Potion Energy as well as Warp Energy happen when they are played.

If the text of a discarded card (which is out of play) is affected by L. Dragonite, then special energy cards in hand should be affected the same way. They are "out of play" as well.

As with many other rulings which were overturned, one or the other of these should be revisited.

[ February 02, 2003, 11:18 PM: Message edited by: Big_Pappa_Poke ]

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From: Portsmouth, OH, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Big Daddy Snorlax

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posted February 02, 2003 11:46 PM      Profile for Big Daddy Snorlax   Email Big Daddy Snorlax    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
In the case of Recycle Energy, it is the act of leaving play that triggers the card. When that is happening, the PP has the card turned off. After the card ends up in the discard pile, with its text active, there is nothing to trigger its effect, so it won't return to the player's hand.

It is different with the coming into play cards you mentioned. The trigger for those cards happens while they are coming into play, before the PP has the text turned off. That's why their effects will happen, but the Recycle Energy's won't.

BDS

[ February 02, 2003, 11:48 PM: Message edited by: Big Daddy Snorlax ]

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From: Oregon | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Big_Pappa_Poke

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posted February 03, 2003 07:52 AM      Profile for Big_Pappa_Poke   Email Big_Pappa_Poke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Glad you cleared that up. It's sort of like a stack rule (oh, boy [Roll Eyes] ) for pokemon effects, except it's "first in, first out."

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From: Portsmouth, OH, USA | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
hoosier_pokedad
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posted February 03, 2003 09:02 AM      Profile for hoosier_pokedad   Email hoosier_pokedad    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by Big Daddy Snorlax:
In the case of Recycle Energy, it is the act of leaving play that triggers the card. When that is happening, the PP has the card turned off. After the card ends up in the discard pile, with its text active, there is nothing to trigger its effect, so it won't return to the player's hand.

It is different with the coming into play cards you mentioned. The trigger for those cards happens while they are coming into play, before the PP has the text turned off. That's why their effects will happen, but the Recycle Energy's won't.

BDS

I would have to disagree with this. According to the text, it isn't the act of leaving play, but actually leaving play that triggers it. If I'm not mistaken, the text reads "If this card is put into your discard pile from play, return it to your hand." The important part being "is put into your discard pile" which means it has to have been put there. If it were the act of leaving play then it would or should say something like, "If this card would be put into your discard pile." Just my opinion.
From: Reynoldsburg, Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
yoshi1001

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posted February 03, 2003 09:24 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
You've been warned about using logic, guys. [Wink] Sometimes there are other factors that come into play, as in this case. BDS's explanation is simpler, for example.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted February 03, 2003 09:32 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
As long as it's consistant, I'm fine with the current ruling.
It's when rulings get specific to certain cards that I get [Confused]

This is consistant with the ruling for Ditto being KO'd while its Mysterious Fossil or Clefairy Doll, that it does not give a Prize, so I think it's the right way to look at it.

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NoPoke

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posted February 03, 2003 03:12 PM      Profile for NoPoke   Email NoPoke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Recycle Energy
Energy
Special Energy Card
Recycle Energy provides {C} Energy. (Doesn’t count as a basic Energy card.)
If this card is put into your discard pile from play, return it to your hand.

Note that it does not say was. So the trigger takes place before the card comes to rest in the discard pile. With light Dragonite in play none of the cards' text is available until after the recycle energy is resting in the discard pile.

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From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
SteveP

Member # 14743


posted February 03, 2003 07:55 PM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I've got to agree with BBP's first comment. IMO, it's not right to say that cards that "come into play" DON'T have to check other effects in play in order to use their own effect, while cards that "leave play" MUST check other effects in play in order to use their effects.

Furthermore, IMO, it's not right that cards that "don't come into play" MUST check other effects in play in order to use their own effect, while cards that "do come into play" DON'T have to check. For example, you CAN'T use Switch against Clamping Jaw, but you CAN use Warp Energy.

But hey, I'm sure there are rulings that I find good that others find confusing and/or incorrect. I'm sure glad we have the Compendium; otherwise, I'd be lost trying to make rulings on my own.

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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
hoosier_pokedad
Member
Member # 55065


posted February 04, 2003 08:43 AM      Profile for hoosier_pokedad   Email hoosier_pokedad    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by NoPoke:
Recycle Energy
Energy
Special Energy Card
Recycle Energy provides {C} Energy. (Doesn’t count as a basic Energy card.)
If this card is put into your discard pile from play, return it to your hand.

Note that it does not say was. So the trigger takes place before the card comes to rest in the discard pile. With light Dragonite in play none of the cards' text is available until after the recycle energy is resting in the discard pile.

Is put means that it has to be put there before it will activate. If the effect comes into play before the card comes to rest in the discard pile, then it would say "would be put, or going to be put".
From: Reynoldsburg, Ohio | Registered: Dec 2001  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted February 04, 2003 09:40 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Remember that this is translated from the Japanese, by Japanese native speakers.
My understanding is that TPC provides WotC with the text and they just print it.
I would like if they had more say in the wording, but I don't think they do.

Because of that, I don't know how useful it is delving into the myriad tenses of verbs.

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