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Author Topic: darkness energy damage and berry
ShadowCard

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posted November 16, 2002 08:46 PM      Profile for ShadowCard      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Since the damage done by darkness energy is dealt one at a time (like fortress's spikes pokemon power), could i use an attached berry while this step is occuring?

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Prime
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posted November 16, 2002 08:57 PM      Profile for Prime   Email Prime    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Are you saying that if some pokemon has 30 and has 1 damage counter it with a berry and you attach a dark and it does 10 to it at the end of the turn, can you just use the berry and take the 20 off?

Wizards said this:
"This card is worded this way for a reason. During the between turn phase, you can choose to use the Berry at any point (after Poison damage, after Char damage, after Darkness Energy damage, or before any of them as well). Whereas, if the conditions are met at the start of the turn, you MUST use it."

So you could add 10 with the dark energy, and then use the berry.

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PokePop

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posted November 16, 2002 09:05 PM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I think he means that if you have a 30 HP Pokemon with 2 Darkness Energy on it and 1 damage counter, can you use the Berry after one Darkness places one Damage Counter but before the other one places another Damage Counter.

The answer to that would be no. You could use the Berry either before Darkness Energy counters are placed or after, but not in-between.

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yoshi1001

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posted November 16, 2002 09:08 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Interesting question. I can't give you a 100% answer. Basically it hinges on are all D energy penalties simultaneous, or can you squeeze the berry in between them. Remember the spikes ruling simply establishes that the damages are separate, not that they are seqential. Furthermore, while it is clear that you can activate the trainer in between steps, it is unclear whether it can be activated in midstep.

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MrGrass

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posted November 16, 2002 09:50 PM      Profile for MrGrass   Email MrGrass    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I agree with Yoshi. You might be able to slide the Berry in between, but personally I doubt it.

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SteveP

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posted November 17, 2002 10:09 AM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
FYI, here's what the latest Advanced Rule book says:

quote:
Place damage counters on any Pokemon with Darkness Energy attached to them (except for Darkness Pokemon and ones with Dark in their names).
It appears that this is an atomic step, that is, you can't break up the placement of damages counters. So, if you have 2 Darkness Energy attached, you simultaneously add 2 damage counters. I view this like double poison. When you're double poisoned, you can't add one damage counter, activate a berry, then add the other damage counter. JMO.

But, the rule DOES allow a bit of interpretation. It's a bit ambiguous when more than one Darkness Energies are attached. IMO, the rule would be VERY clear if it were worded like this:

quote:
Place X damage counters on any Pokemon with X Darkness Energy attached to them (except for Darkness Pokemon and ones with Dark in their names).
Anyway, without any official ruling, I've got to agree with PokePop. You can't use the Berry in between.

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yoshi1001

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posted November 17, 2002 10:24 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
And I was just thinking we had exhausted all the good ruling questions. [Wink] However, I do have to (at least until we get an official ruling) concur with my associates. I can't think of a precedent that would allow you to apply a berry in the middle of a step.

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TheGameHHH6662

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posted November 17, 2002 03:21 PM      Profile for TheGameHHH6662   Email TheGameHHH6662    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I seem to remember this cropping up before and the general consensus of opinion then(as it is now)was ALL the damage is tabulated from each dark energy and added at the SAME time thus the berry can only go off AFTER all the damage is done!

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ShadowCard

Member # 2104



posted November 17, 2002 04:07 PM      Profile for ShadowCard      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
yes, what pokepop said would apply as an example to the question i asked.

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DOMCGI

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posted November 18, 2002 07:56 AM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Please correct me if I am wrong.

The text on the Darkness Energy card is:
“... At the end of every turn, put 1 damage counter ...”

As SteveP find from the Advance Rulebook, the damage is place in “Between turn”.

I remember there is an argument when the card just issue and a rule is issued as “Play as the text written on the card”.

So the damage counter from Darkness energy card is place at the “end of the turn” and before the “Between turn”. The Berry always should be activated after the counter is placed.

As the rule of Pokemon is always changing, I am not sure if this rule still valid. I am also not really sure if I remember correctly.

Anyone remember the rule? What is the current rule?

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yoshi1001

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posted November 18, 2002 08:41 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
As printed in the compendium:

quote:
Q. It says on the Darkness card "....At the end of every turn, place..." Wouldn't that mean that it's NOT "between turns"? A. As per the Pokemon Company, Darkness takes place between turns, like Char and Poison do....as per the rulebook. (Aug 30, 2001 WotC Chat, Q119 & Q128)

***** PREVIOUS RULING: THIS ONE HAS SINCE BEEN OVERRULED; See Above ****

Q. when would you place a Damage Counter for Darkness Energy; at the end of the turn (per the card) or between turns (per the rule book)?
A. It goes on at the end of the turn then. (Aug 9, 2001 WotC Chat, Q171, 175)

That would be the ruling.

[ November 19, 2002, 05:11 AM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]

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MrGrass

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posted November 18, 2002 07:44 PM      Profile for MrGrass   Email MrGrass    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
[Dropjaw] D'oh! [Dropjaw]
How could I forget that ruling. I remember it being such a big deal. Oh well.

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Onix95

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posted November 18, 2002 07:46 PM      Profile for Onix95      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Wouldn't it go something like this:

a) Berry Step
b) Poison damage placed
c) Berry Step
d) Burned damage placed
e) Berry Step
f) Sleep and Paralysis check
g) Berry Step
h) Char damage placed
i) Berry Step
j) Darkness damage placed
k) Final Berry Step

That's the way I would rule it, where at each "Berry Step" you could choose to use the berry, but at each individual damage placing step, all damage is placed before the next "Berry Step", then the "Final Berry Step" is where you're forced to use it if possible. That way nobody can argue that "Berry says anytime, so I can use it between Darkness"... But... that's just me. [Roll Eyes]

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Prime
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posted November 18, 2002 09:38 PM      Profile for Prime   Email Prime    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
The way the ruling shows it, berry goes off between turns, and darkness does at the end of the turn. So you would apply the darkness and resolve anything like knockout or etc. and then the berry when the end of the turn was over, apply the berry. But you it does say may so you may apply the berry. So in PokePop's situtation, the two darkness would apply two damage counters, and then you would resolve that it is knocked out. Berry never gets in effect.

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PokePop

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posted November 18, 2002 09:45 PM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Prime: You are reading that ruling backwards. The overturned ruling is on the bottom, the new one is on the top.

By the way, Yoshi: Please put "From the Compendium" or something like that in your posts when you use it to quote a ruling. You will note on its first page a usage requirement to that effect. You're breaking the rules, Yoshi! [Wink] [Evil Smirk]

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yoshi1001

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posted November 19, 2002 05:08 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Hey, I was nice enough to give you guys a spot on PIRN, cut me some slack. [Wink] No, I'll fix that.

quote:
Originally posted by Onix95:
Wouldn't it go something like this:

a) Berry Step
b) Poison damage placed
c) Berry Step
d) Burned damage placed
e) Berry Step
f) Sleep and Paralysis check
g) Berry Step
h) Char damage placed
i) Berry Step
j) Darkness damage placed
k) Final Berry Step

That's the way I would rule it, where at each "Berry Step" you could choose to use the berry, but at each individual damage placing step, all damage is placed before the next "Berry Step", then the "Final Berry Step" is where you're forced to use it if possible. That way nobody can argue that "Berry says anytime, so I can use it between Darkness"... But... that's just me. [Roll Eyes]

Doesn't that look a line dance to anyone else ("Line to the left, line to the right, berry step, berry step, step together step-turn!"). [Wink] Yeah, that's basically what I would rule.

[ November 19, 2002, 05:17 AM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]

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MrGrass

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posted November 19, 2002 08:27 PM      Profile for MrGrass   Email MrGrass    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Nevertheless, I hope someone asks this in the chat, cause I don't have time to go to the chats.

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SteveP

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posted November 19, 2002 11:49 PM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
This is just my opinion, but I really feel the sequence in the rulebook for when things are done in between turn is purely an arbitrary sequence that someone came up with in order to make it easy for judges to rule.

Here's why I make this point. As a judge, if I observe a game in progress and someone decides to apply the Darkness Energy damage BEFORE the Poison damage, I'm NOT going to step in and make a correction (unless asked to make a ruling). Personally, I think that all those 5 things (poison, burn, condition, char, dark), along with the activation of tools, SHOULD be something that a player gets to do in any sequence of their choosing. But, that's just my own opinion.

Nevertheless, I still think that ALL Darkness Energy damage should be done in one step (no use of Berry in between placing Darkness Energy damage counters).

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BJJ763

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posted November 20, 2002 05:08 AM      Profile for BJJ763   Email BJJ763    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Ah but since the steps are there, they should be followed. Let's use this as an example:

50 HP Pokémon that has a Gold Berry attached to it has 20 damage on it already just got Burned after it had already gotten Posioned. If you let them do whatever damage tehy want first, the person could flip for Burned and if heads, active Gold Berry and save the Pokémon. THen let it take Posion damage. But with the steps, Posion increases the damage to 30, then Burned is checked. If Heads, the Pokémon is KOed and Gold Berry does not get a chance to activate.

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yoshi1001

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posted November 20, 2002 05:19 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Of course. In reality, these would be continuous energy sappers acting at all times-but we can't simulate that in a card game. We need a hard-and-fast sequence in order to make the game suitible for a wide range of players. I mean, could you imagine how bogged down things would get if people spent between-turns time rearranging steps ad infidum? Blech!

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SteveP

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posted November 20, 2002 07:02 AM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Yes, I agree that because the sequence exists, it should be followed. However, if it's so important that things be done in a certain order between turns, then why didn't the use-of-tools step get put it there somewhere (instead of being allowed to be used anywhere)?

Any way, this is just my opinion. I don't believe there's any ryhme or reason to the sequence (otherwise the burn and char step would be next to each other).

Finally, BJJ and yoshi, your example and comment just illustrate why I think the sequence is not a very good rule. In any strategic game, players should be given some leeway in how they apply a sequence of actions in order to gain an advantage. IMO, I like the idea of making Pokemon more strategic by enabling players to THINK about what order to apply the in-between steps in order to gain an advantage. I compare this to how a player sequences his trainer usage.

So, I agree that the in-between sequence rule should be followed. I just believe that the rule subtracts from the ability to play Pokemon more strategically. JMO.

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PokePop

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posted November 20, 2002 07:19 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I agree with Steve. Where was that long list published, anyway?

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BJJ763

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posted November 20, 2002 08:05 AM      Profile for BJJ763   Email BJJ763    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
The long list is really someone's interpretation of Pages 20-21 of the Advanced Rulebook Version 8:
quote:
In What Order Do Things Happen after Each Player's Turn?

Usually it doesn't matter in what order you do things after each player's turn, but if things get complicated, follow these steps in order.

a) Place damage counters on any Posioned Pokémon.

b) Flip to see if Burned Pokémon take damage.

c) Flip to see if Asleep Pokémon recover, and have Paralyzed Pokémon recover.

d) Flip to see if Pokémon with Char counters get damaged counters placed on them.

e) Place damage counters on any Pokémon with [Black Mana] Energy attached to them (except for [Black Mana] Pokémon and ones with Dark in their names).

If a Pokémon has a Pokémon Tool card attached to it and that card does something between turns, that card can be used at any time between turns that the person who played the Pokémon wants.

When things get "complicated". What's "complicated"? Well i'd have to go with "when one (or more) Pokémon in play have more than one Special Conditions, or when both Active have at least one Special Condition on them".

If a Light Dragonite was Paralyzed by a non-Dark Pokémon with a Darkness Energy attached to it....

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SteveP

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posted November 20, 2002 08:26 AM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
The list for in-between-turn steps is found in the latest Advanced Rulebook (found in theme decks). For some reason, this rule is NOT shown online at the WOTC website in the Expert Rules web pages.

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PokePop

Member # 8



posted November 20, 2002 11:36 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Ah, well; if its published, its published.
Best to stick with it unless there is some overwhelming reason not to.

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