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Author Topic: Ho-Oh and Porygon2
NoPoke

Member # 42315


posted December 09, 2002 09:53 AM      Profile for NoPoke   Email NoPoke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Isn't Ho-oh the only card that cares about the type of a basic energy card?

So up until Ho-oh the question as to what type a basic energy card that was converted by Porygon2 (or Ditto *shudders* ugh) never came up.

So what we have is an explanation of how to calculate Ho-oh's damage. Ok the answer isn't the one that we would automatically give based upon our knowledge of the game and its rullings. But this isn't the first time that this has happend and I'm sure it won't be the last.

So unless there are lots of cases like Ho-oh I'm not going to worry too much about the dual identity that is offered to us as an explanation of why Ho-oh's damage is not increased by using Porygon2. I'll just accept it as the current rulling.

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some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL

-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------

'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.

From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
IPGeek21

Member # 184



posted December 09, 2002 05:38 PM      Profile for IPGeek21   Email IPGeek21    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Ditto can treat EACH and EVERY BASIC energy as a different type.

THAT is why I brought this up.

This ruling changes how Transform deals with Ditto.

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From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
NoPoke

Member # 42315


posted December 10, 2002 01:32 AM      Profile for NoPoke   Email NoPoke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
From the Oracle

Ditto
Pokémon card
LV. 20 #132
50 HP
Basic Pokémon
n/a

Weakness: {F}
Resistance: {P} -30
Retreat cost: {C}
Pokémon Power: Transform If Ditto is your Active Pokémon, treat it as if it were the same card as the Defending Pokémon, including type, Hit Points, Weakness, and so on, except Ditto can’t evolve, always has this Pokémon Power, and you may treat any Energy attached to Ditto as Energy of any type. Ditto isn’t a copy of any other Pokémon while Ditto is Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed.


It doesn't say "BASIC ENERGY CARD" So unless it is copying Ho-oh I don't think that the issue arrises. However the what is 'TYPE' question is very similar to the issues that Ditto raised.

--------------------
========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS

some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL

-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------

'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.

From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Porygone3
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posted December 10, 2002 01:52 AM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
type confusion and loop holes arise, also - if I paint you a color your now two colors? Plus- you guys dont seem to realise that with this rulling you now have "floating engery" when you convert an engery into anyther. The intent of the rulling may have been something difernt but it opens a loop hole that I (and others) can explote for uses that are insain.

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I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

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DOMCGI

Member # 20344



posted December 10, 2002 08:54 AM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Reply to GreatFox and Porygone3.

From my understanding, what GreatFox say is:
a card named "Basic Grass energy Card" providing Fire energy is called "Fire energy card". The card still named "Basic Grass Energy Card", but it is just the name of the card and do not directly related to its function.

So Porygone3, there is no floating energy.

What I don't agree with GreatFox is, the card should be called "Special Fire Energy card".

See the Chat Log on Dec 5, 2002:

darkmt_mike presents the speaker with question #61 from calathon:DMTM: It has previously been very explicit that if a card provides energy of a type, it is a card of that type. If you now say a Grass card changed to a Fire card is not considered a Basic Fire card, that will be a MAJOR rulings change!! -Pop
darkmt_mike says, "Yes. But NOT A BASIC ENERGY CARD!"
darkmt_mike says, "It is a Fire Energy card."
darkmt_mike says, "Not a Basic fire Energy card."

What DMTM and GreatFox are try to introduce 2 naming system to the game. One is based on the card function, another is based on the text printed on the card.

1. Based on function
we called a card "X energy card" while a card providing X type energy. DMTM do not specifiy how to identify Basic or Special in this case. Greatfox do not agree a coverted Grass energy card called "Special Fire Energy Card".
2. Based on card named
When refering to the "card" itself, we will go to what is the name printed of the card. "Basic Grass Energy Card" is just the name of the card. it is the same as Ditto always is a "Ditto card" no matter how it transform.

Ho-oh's attacked is refered to the second defination: based on card name.

This just make the game more complicated. It is a big headache to determine every attack/trainer/Power refer to the Name or Function.

For GreatFox, if the Grass energy card do not called "Special Fire energy card" how about Buzzap Electrode?
Go with DMTM logic:
1. It is actually a "Electrode card providing X energy".
2. It is a X energy card
3. It is not a Basic X energy Card.
Is it Special X Energy card? GreatFox say no. It is still an Electrode Card.
So what is the damage take from the attack of Light Golduck? It is just an Electrode Card!!!!

Really funny. Right??

My suggestion to the rule is very simple:
Whenever refer to Energy card in the game, the name is always based on the Fucntion of the card. The name is in the format "Basic/Special X Energy Card". Basic or Special will be defined by WOTC.
Only one name be used in the game!

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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
GreatFox

Member # 77642



posted December 10, 2002 09:23 AM      Profile for GreatFox   Email GreatFox    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Sheesh.... I already explained twice that with this ruling there is no floating Energy. It is so simple that many just don't seem to get it. So let me try to explain this one more time; step by step.

Defenitions:

1) Basic Energy Card:
A Basic Energy Card is a Grass, Fire, Water, Lightning, Psychic, or Fighting Energy Card.

2) Converted Energy Card:
A Basic Energy Card that now provides a different Type of energy than originaly (ie. A Basic Grass Type Energy Card Converted by Porygon 2 that now provides one Fire Type Energy instead of Grass).

So, by defenition, a Basic Energy Card converted by Porygon 2, Ditto, or any other Card (be it a Pokémon or Trainer) is still considered to be a Basic Energy Card of its original Type becuase nothing on the card itself has changed but now provides ONLY one of another type of Energy Instaed, due to the effect of another Card in play or that was in play.

For example, a Basic Grass Type Energy Card converted by Proygon 2 to provide one Fire Type Energy is still a Basic Grass Type Energy Card. However, due to the effect of Porygon 2's Power, the Type of Energy being provided is only Fire.

The Card itself hasn't changed, only what it provides has changed due Porygon 2's effect on it. No floating Energies are produced. No Dual identaties are created. The Basic Energy Card is still in its original state. Nothing has changed on it physicaly. Only an effect by Porygon 2 has been put on it in order for it to provide a different Type of Energy of your choosing. No more, no less.

So remember, that Basic Grass Type Energy Card is still a Basic Grass Type Energy Card. Only that now it is providing one Fire Type Energy ONLY. It is not providing both Grass and Fire Type energies. Just Fire! Put simply... It is still a Basic Grass Type Energy Card that is providing a Fire Type Energy instaed.

Now, please don't make me have to explain that again. I don't think I can make it any more simple than that.
quote:

Orginaly by DOMCGI:
For GreatFox, if the Grass energy card do not called "Special Fire energy card" how about Buzzap Electrode?
Go with DMTM logic:
1. It is actually a "Electrode card providing X energy".
2. It is a X energy card
3. It is not a Basic X energy Card.
Is it Special X Energy card? GreatFox say no. It is still an Electrode Card.
So what is the damage take from the attack of Light Golduck? It is just an Electrode Card!!!!

Ok... so as you my have noticed, I never called the converted Basic Grass Energy Card a "Special Fire Energy Card" because it is not. Now, in the case of Electrode, you have to look at what his Power says.
quote:
Pokémon Power: Buzzap: At any time during your turn (before your attack), you may Knock Out Electrode and attach it to 1 of your other Pokémon. If you do, choose a type of Energy. Electrode is now an Energy card (instead of a Pokémon) that provides 2 energy of that type. This power can't be used if Electrode is Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed.
As you can notice, Electorde clearly states that it is an Energy Card, but not a Basic Energy Card. At no time would I consider a Buzzaped Electorde to still be an Electrode becuase it clearly says that it is now an Energy Card. But I would not consider it a Basic Energy Card for the same reasons. (Thought you had me there, didn't you?) [Wink]

Thanks,
-GreatFox
Master Pokémon Professor


[ December 10, 2002, 09:48 AM: Message edited by: GreatFox ]

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yoshi1001

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posted December 10, 2002 09:49 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I understand the logic behind this ruling. However, it needlessly complicates the game. I don't understand why we need a duality between what a card counts as for one purpose and what it counts as for another. Ho-oh doesn't ask for the actual identity of the card. As I have said, a more detailed explanation is required, especially given the logs posted earlier.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
NoPoke

Member # 42315


posted December 10, 2002 10:11 AM      Profile for NoPoke   Email NoPoke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Rockets Zapdos has four basic electric energy cards attched.

Use porygon2 to convert one of them.

How much damage does Electroburn do to Zapdos?

Ok so I know that the answer is still 30 but I can envisage arguments breaking out if someone has just had it explained to them that there converted energy card on Ho-oh doesn't increase Ho-oh's damage.

I don't have a problem with the rulling but I do have issues with the language used...A converted {G}card counts as a grass basic energy card and also as a {F} energy card. I don't like the complexity that this adds.

--------------------
========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS

some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL

-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------

'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.

From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689



posted December 10, 2002 10:27 AM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
indeed, also with Rockets Zapdos what if you have 4 fire engery and convert them all into Electric with Porygon2. And- as far as calling it a specal engery card... ok that opens other loop holes, as now smoochum may put the converted engery back into the deck, Light Dragonite will make the specal engery into colorless engery, since its now a specal engery card, Porygon2 can no longer convert it- therefore, you can only convert 1 basic engery (watter) into specal engery (fighting) now its specal engery and the second Porygon2 on my bench can not effect that specal engery card, since its power only effects basic engery cards, and although the card does not lose the identiy of its basic self, its not providing a specal type of engery- and since you can never change the name of the card into something else just the type it provides.... So if its not a basic engery card, what is it? Specal? Eather way, your left with something that will nead futer explation, and I promise that will lead to more confusion then ever. The way its being worded as is, if its not a basic engery, and not a specal engery, then its a (fire) turned to (watter) that still is a (basic fire) but it cant count as a (basic watter) since engery comes in only these forms : Basic & Specal. Electode is conserded a specal engery card when attached, but cant be MADE into an engery card that provides the same as the card of the Darkness Specal engery card, and Electrode could never be converted by Porygon2. Are you telling me that Porygon2 can make an engery into a specal engery card for 1 turn. Because Light Golduck will effect that as well, making Porygon2 something you will not want to play with at all. OR there maybe something other then basic & specal engery ... but what is it?

--------------------
Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"

From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
GreatFox

Member # 77642



posted December 10, 2002 10:40 AM      Profile for GreatFox   Email GreatFox    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
OK... so I guess further explainnation is required. So lets go into what Energy Cards are...

Energy Cards fall into three catagories: Energy Card, Basic Energy Card, and Special Energy Card.

As stated in the Pokémon TCG Rule Book a Basic Energy Card is a Grass, Fire, Water, Lightning, Psychic, or Fighting Energy Card. Which means that a Basic Energy Card is these cards specificly. Not a card that provides X Type energy, but these actual cards. A Special Energy Card by defenition would then be any other type of Energy Card. While Energy Card, as by the TCG Rule Book, is the type of card that powers your Pokémon and makes them able to attack. So both Basic and Special Energy Cards are Energy Cards.

Now, there is also another term used with these card... Energy Type. Theres two catagories of Type: Energy Type, and Basic Energy Type.

Basic Energy Type is Grass, Fire, Water, Lightning, Psychic, Fighting, Darkness, and Metal. While Energy Type is all of the privious, and Colorless.

Thats why when Ho-oh has converted Energy attached to it, its attack only referes to the actual card becuase it specificly asks for Types of Basic Energy Cards, and as we just learned, Basic Energy Cards are only those found in the defenition. A Buzzaped Electrode is a Special Energy Card becuse it does not fall into the defenition of Basic Energy Card. A Light Golduck can use a Buzzaped Electorde with its attack, but not a Converted Basic Energy and so on.

I really hope that clears up a lot of questions.

-GreatFox
Master Pokémon Professor


[ December 10, 2002, 10:52 AM: Message edited by: GreatFox ]

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NoPoke

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posted December 10, 2002 10:45 AM      Profile for NoPoke   Email NoPoke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Nowhere in last Thursdays chat do the MT's say that an energy card that has been converted by Porygon2 is now a SPECIAL ENERGY CARD.

--------------------
========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS

some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL

-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------

'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.

From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
WizPoG_Pop

Member # 113762



posted December 10, 2002 10:46 AM      Profile for WizPoG_Pop   Email WizPoG_Pop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I think we are getting some misunderstanding of the ruling here (one of the MAJOR problems that I have with it: makes something complicated that was relatively simple....)

If you have a basic Grass card and convert it to Fire, DMTM and MTM say you now have a Fire Energy card. It is not a Special Energy card, though. It is still Basic. They say it is not a Basic Fire card, though, but is a Basic Grass card.
For most cards, they tell you to discard an energy type card and don't specify that it has to be basic or not. It is only Ho Oh that specifies that the card has to be Basic and of a "different type".

Now, when we discuss Electroburn from Rocket's Zapdos, this ruling does get interesting.
Say you have 4 Lightning Basic cards and you use Porygon2 to make one of them Fire. Now, the three that have not been changed will definately do 10 damage each, but if the card is still a "basic lightning card" (per the MTs ruling), should it still do 10 damage as well??
I don't see how they can have it both ways.

My opinion: A card is either a Basic Energy card or it is a Special Energy card. And the Name of the type of Energy card that it is is what type of energy it is providing. Otherwise, I see a Suicune-level mess.... [Mad] [NoNoNo]

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NoPoke

Member # 42315


posted December 10, 2002 11:02 AM      Profile for NoPoke   Email NoPoke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
from the Jan 10th 2002 chat

master_trainer_pat presents the speaker with question #1034 from matthewssandslash:People are seeming to have problems with this, so I'll try to get this straightened out... If Porygon2 changes a Fire energy card attached to a non-holo Ho-oh to Grass (and Non-holo Ho-oh doesn't have a Grass energy attatched) does it make it do 10 damage more? It doesn't, does it? PLEASE say it doesn't.
master_trainer_pat says, "it doesn't."

and from the Master Rules document

Porygon2 - Neo Revelation

A Basic Energy card that is Converted to provide Darkness or Metal Energy will NOT count as the Special Energy Cards of those types. It will only provide energy of that type, without the additional effects.

[both documents have the misstatement of Ho-oh's base damage which is 30 not 50]

So the MT's do appear to be self-consistant and I'm going to blame MatthewSandslash for our collective misunderstanding [Wink]

--------------------
========================================
'Good News' or 'Bad News' but NOT NO NEWS

some people brag about their tournament results, me I'm gonna brag??? about what players have managed to get past me LOL

-------Hoodwinked---(things I won't get wrong again...)------

'legal stalling' : game loss at least
'only joking' on misreported match results: DQ Yep its that serious!
The prize swap penalty as it applies to shuffling.

From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
GreatFox

Member # 77642



posted December 10, 2002 11:04 AM      Profile for GreatFox   Email GreatFox    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I really have no problem with this ruling. I find it to be so redicuosly simple to understand that I don't see why others are having so much trouble with it. It all has to do with defenitions and wording. I've tried to explain it in the simplest way possible, but no one seems to get it.

Sheesh, I even explained it to my 17 Year old little Brother (active player) and even to my 12 year old little sister (not that active but likes the game), and they understand it perfectly!

I personaly don't think that this makes anything any more complicated. But as long as someone doesn't get it, I will continue to explain it. After all, i didn't become a Pokémon Professor for nothing!

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yoshi1001

Member # 825



posted December 10, 2002 11:46 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Well, I always thought a card's true identity only mattered if A. the effect changing the card stopped B. The card left play. Also, although the ruling seems okay now, it is bound to cause problems later.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
GreatFox

Member # 77642



posted December 10, 2002 12:01 PM      Profile for GreatFox   Email GreatFox    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by WizPoG_Pop:
Now, when we discuss Electroburn from Rocket's Zapdos, this ruling does get interesting.
Say you have 4 Lightning Basic cards and you use Porygon2 to make one of them Fire. Now, the three that have not been changed will definately do 10 damage each, but if the card is still a "basic lightning card" (per the MTs ruling), should it still do 10 damage as well??
I don't see how they can have it both ways.

Again, it all depends on the wording. You have to see how Porygon 2 affects the Energy Card.
quote:
PokČmon Power: Energy Converter Once during your turn (before your attack), you may choose 1 basic Energy card attached to 1 of your PokČmon and choose an Energy type. Treat that Energy card as that type until the end of your turn. This power can't be used if Porygon2 is Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed. If Porygon2 becomes Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed, the Energy card goes back to its original type.
Now here, R. Zappy is not asking specificly for a Basic Energy Card. It is asking for a Lightning Energy Card. It is asking for the Energy Type (mind you, its for the Energy Type, not the Basic Energy Type. Look above for defenitions) and Porygon 2 states to treat the card as that type (eventhough it is not). So Zappy would not take the extra 10 damage from a Converted Lighting Energy (Now, I think thats right, unless I missread somrthing in the Cards' text. Remember, it all depends on the wording)

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WizPoG_Pop

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posted December 10, 2002 12:08 PM      Profile for WizPoG_Pop   Email WizPoG_Pop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Great Fox: I don't think it is as simple as all that.

I don't know.

I have to sit down with Ditto and Brock's Ninetales and Porygon2 and Ho Oh and meditate on this for awhile.

God help us if Brock's Ninetales helps to make things clearer....

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yoshi1001

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posted December 10, 2002 12:18 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Treat that Energy card as that type until the end of your turn.
You must understand that the crux of the arguement is basically I find no basis for the existance of a "Basic energy card type." There is the type of the basic energy card, obviously. That is my point of view. Maybe this is the only area affected at the momement, but quite frankly there is no purpose or basis for making this distinction.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
DOMCGI

Member # 20344



posted December 10, 2002 12:36 PM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
After a long argument, I think again and adjust my point.

Every card has a Name printed on the card. This Name can not be changed, even the function of the card changed.

For the converted “Basic Grass Energy Card”, the property of the card changed to provide Fire energy instead of Grass. But the name of the card is still “Basic Grass Energy Card”. It is what DMTM and GreatFox say it is STILL a “Basic Grass Energy Card”.

Then in the gaming purpose, we already have a rule:
Any card providing X Type Energy is treat as "X Type Energy Card".

So we will “TREAT” the card as “Fire Energy Card”

What we “Treat” do not affect the “Name” of the card.

Note: the rule does not specify we “TREAT” this as Basic or Special

Before Ho-Oh, we always only care the “Treat” and do not care the “Name”.

Now, we get a rule that Ho-Oh’s attack is using the Name of the Energy card.

Than, we know that some attack/trainer/power MAY use the Name of the card, other MAY use the TREAT of the card.

Up to here, it stills the same opinion with GreatFox. Below are the different.

1. It is a big headache to identify every attack/trainer/power INTENDS for the Name or for the TREAT. I propose to use only the “TREAT” in the game. This could simplify the game and easier to handle.

2. When treat a card as energy card, the Basic/Special part can not omit.
For the Electrode example, Buzzap let us TREAT the Electrode as an Energy card providing 2 energies. Even we treat this as an energy card, the card itself is still name “Electrode card” and not an energy card. It is “We” treat this as “Special Energy Card” (from the old old rule of WOTC) and get extra damage from Light Golduck. If we only treat this as Energy card without define it is Basic or Special energy card, we will be in trouble on the damage calculation from Light Golduck. Same as the Grass covert to fire card. From the Chat, DMTM already say the covered grass card is a “Fire Energy Card” and “Not Basic Fire Energy Card”. Since we only has 2 type (Basic or Special) of energy card, it is very natural to treat this as “Special Fire Energy Card”.

I hope my opinion is clear enough this time and no more misunderstand.

--------------------
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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689



posted December 10, 2002 08:09 PM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
There are 3 types of engery someone said, basic, engery and specal engery. Um... not really. There is only basic and specal engery, now as type goes-there are 7 Basic types of engery, grass-fire-watter-fighting-electric-mettal-dark. Then there is Rainbow that provides every type of color, Miracal that provides 2 types of color. Then there are the Colorless Specal engery cards that only provide colorless engery and give added effects, but strangely colorless is not a basic engery type at all. You've got Electode the only pokemon that can become a specal engery card that gives 2 type of one color (not 2 difernt colors mind you) and now you've got Porygon2 that converts BASIC engery into an engery type. Now, we also have Pokemon that have attacks that are effected by the ammount of engery on them, (ie more flips) have Pokemon that do more dammage per actual engery card that the defending Pokemon has on them, one pokemon that takes all grass engery and adds 1 more to it (tell me thats not floating engery, what happens if you convert the second provided grass engery since its basic grass...)
Now, I could go on and on. My point has been, and will forever be that untill this is clarifed and explained in a thoughtfull manner that its a loop hole. A few of you Profecors are trying to do this, and although its great to see some of you are thinking with your minds, I can see that your also being asked to do the inpossible, corect something that didnt nead correcting in the first place. Untill next time, log out.

--------------------
Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"

From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted December 10, 2002 09:20 PM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
DOMCGI: But... Basic energy cards don't have a name printed on them!! Other than "Energy" at least. There is no "Grass Energy" or "Fire Energy" name printed on there.

That's why I don't like this ruling. It's still a Basic Energy card. DMTM and MTM acknowledge this.
It provides Fire. They acknowledge this.
It's a Fire Energy card. They acknowledge this.
Then they take a left turn and say its a Grass Basic Energy card.
I don't see how it can be both at once.

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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno

The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net

Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
slowdad
Member
Member # 66088


posted December 10, 2002 10:27 PM      Profile for slowdad      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I shake my head in amazement watching us descend once again into another round of Clinton-esque hairsplitting about the subtle shades of nuance dripping from every holy word on a Pokemon card's text. A game targetting young teens shouldn't get this complicated.

That said, here goes:
As DOMCGI has said, the crux of the dispute is in how we interpret "treat". When I hear "treat" a Basic energy card as a different type, my mind pictures a red card with a flame icon magically BECOMING a blue card with a water drop for the rest of the turn (or until discarded?).

Clearly, that is not how "treat" has been used with Ditto or Brock's Ninetales. If Ditto transforms into Tyranitar and does Trample on a benched Erika's Dratini, the attack is coming from a Basic Pokemon. (He may be dressed in green armor, but he still has a crooked smile and pinpoint eyes.) Similarly, if a Kabutops on Brock's Ninetales attacks Lily Pad Mew, the Kabutops is not an evolved Pokemon but Ninetales is.

"Treat" implies putting a costume on a card in play so as to use the abilities of the costume. The identity of the original card never vanishes by becoming the costume. Ditto and Brock's Ninetales need to continue to exist underneath to be consistent with all previous rulings about their always maintaining their PP's.

So hush all of this talk about dual identities.

From: Watsonville CA | Registered: Feb 2002  |  IP: Logged
Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689



posted December 10, 2002 11:42 PM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
soslow, your wrong, kabotops IS an evolved pokemon. And Ditto would be an evolved Pokemon because it has become that card. Your treating the card that way- it becomes as such.
Also, anther question, can Porygon2 convert the second grass engery provided from a Megenum that says that all grass engerys now provide 2 grass engerys. And what do we call the second provided grass engery? Basic, Specal... dare I say floating? When you say a card is something, IE Electrode, it becomes it untill discarded, you could engery flow an elecrode, if you made it into grass, you could engery transfer it with Venusar, you could engery transfer a miracal engery with engery transfer because its being treated as grass. But its not grass. Its something else, just being treated as grass.

--------------------
Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"

From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Onix95

Member # 103241



posted December 11, 2002 12:41 AM      Profile for Onix95      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Here's my 2 cents, hope I don't add to the confusion..

If we look at Darkness energy:
Darkness Energy; Special Energy Card
Darkness Energy provides (Darkness) Energy.

If Light Dragonite were active, it would change the card to read:
Darkness Energy; Special Energy Card
Darkness Energy provides (Colorless) Energy.

Now the thing is we don't have this text on a Basic Energy Card, but we could use the Special Energy Cards to "add" the needed text so that a card like a Fire Energy would read:
Fire Energy; Basic Energy Card
Fire Energy provides (Fire) Energy.

If a Porygon2 changed it to another color like Grass, wouldn't it be safe to say that it would read:
Fire Energy; Basic Energy Card
Fire Energy provides (Grass) Energy.

The only difference between the two situations is that Light Dragonite says that the Special Energy Cards PROVIDE (Colorless) Energy, where Porygon2 says that we TREAT the Basic Energy Card as that type, but wouldn't we treat a card that provides a type as that type, and vise versa. Porygon2 doesn't change the name of the card, just what the card provides. Now.. if we only had dot coding on these cards, then we could just scan it and get a simple answer... [Razz]

From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted December 11, 2002 06:52 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
OK, let's take a look at this scenario:

Charizard Energy Burns a Grass card to Fire.
Venusaur is on your bench. Its Energy Trans power says: "...you may take 1 [Green Mana] Energy card attached to 1 of your Pokemon and attach it to a different one."

Now, if this is still a "basic [Green Mana] Energy card that provides [Red Mana] ", can you Trans it?
If not, why not? Please be clear in your explanation and show your notes. [Wink]

[ December 11, 2002, 06:59 AM: Message edited by: PokePop ]

--------------------
"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno

The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net

Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged


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