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Author Topic: AQ Scizor...Errata Needed...?
Gymbo

Member # 30832



posted February 17, 2003 05:50 AM      Profile for Gymbo   Email Gymbo    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Hello again y'all,

Please note that my final match at my SBZ this weekend is NOT influenced by this post at ALL...

...Okay, okay, it is. But seriously though here is what the current Aquapolis Scizor card says WORD for WORD.

Scizor 80 HP
Metal Pokemon (Evolves from Scyther)

Poke-BODY: Poison Resistance: Scizor can't be Poisoned.

MC: Snatch: 20 Before doing damage, you may choose one of your opponent's Benched Pokemon with no damage counters on it and switch the Defending Pokemon with it.

CCC: Heavy Metal: 30+ Flip a coin equal to the number of (Metal Energy Symbol) Energy attached to Scizor. This attack does 30 damage plus 20 more for each heads.

Weakness: Fire
Resistance: -
Retreat: **

Mmmkay, there's the card. Word for word, I even got the Metal Energy Symbol in there. Now why is that important? Well because at the last chat it was ruled that Rainbow Energy could provide Metal Energy for Heavy Metal. Now that ruling is correct because the word "cards" is absent from the sentence in Heavy Metal's attack "Flip a coin equal to the number of (Metal Energy Symbol) Energy attached to Scizor." The word CARD is clearly meant when you read that attack. Rainbow Energy PROVIDES Metal Energy, but it ISN'T Metal Energy. Thus you SHOULD NOT be able to flip extra flips. That's totally ridiculous. You can see that by reading the attack. I mean there's no NEED for Scizor to have 8 possible flips.

Scizor is bad enough anyways. You get 4 Metals on Scizor and it reduces 40 damage to it and then you can deal up to 110 damage. Compare that to Steelix. You get 4 Metal on Steelix and you reduces 40 damage but do a max of 50. The 30 HP difference doesn't really matter when it's loaded with Metal. Then to make things worse they can play Rainbows just to do EVEN more damage. C'mon WotC, this card seriously needs errataed, or at least looked at. Please take this post into consideration.

Thank you,

~Jim Ferrell

--------------------
=Pokemon Professor Jim Ferrell=

*AKA The Publically Acclaimed and Talented Deck Mechanic Gymbo*
*Accomplished Rogue Player*
*Second Place Finisher at the Ohio SBZ '03*
*Creator of Espeon Decks*
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From: Akron, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted February 17, 2003 06:57 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Put 4 Porygon2 on the bench and add another 4...

Makes up for Discovery Scizor, doesn't it? [Smile]

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Spectreon

Member # 60305



posted February 17, 2003 09:46 AM      Profile for Spectreon      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
In modified, just add Buzzaped Electrodes. Each cost a prize to you, but can add 2 flips to Scizor. For the most ridiculas results, 4 metal, 4 Rainbow, 4 Converted Energys in modified for 30+(20x12 Flips), and in Unlimited add in 4 Electrode for 30+(20x20 flips).

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Gymbo

Member # 30832



posted February 17, 2003 10:21 AM      Profile for Gymbo   Email Gymbo    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Some mod please lock this post. Because the point is completely missed. I think that Scizor is already TOO broken and people just add their ridiculous combo ideas which have nothing to do with anything. Why do I waste my time here...?

~Jim Ferrell

--------------------
=Pokemon Professor Jim Ferrell=

*AKA The Publically Acclaimed and Talented Deck Mechanic Gymbo*
*Accomplished Rogue Player*
*Second Place Finisher at the Ohio SBZ '03*
*Creator of Espeon Decks*
*Innovator of Expedition Feraligatr*
*Current Project: Skyridge Analysis*

DCI: 2032
AIM: XGymbo01X

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From: Akron, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted February 17, 2003 11:03 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Gymbo, relax. It's not a case of having anything to do with it. If anything, it makes the case even more apparent how the card can be "broken".

To your point, if everyone starts playing it or making their decks to counter it, then WotC may look at errata'ing or banning it. Until then, it will be wait and see.

I know 'sensei was hitting me up for copies of the card for his deck, so we may see it's popularity increase over the next few weeks.

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ScythKing

Member # 26665



posted February 17, 2003 11:32 AM      Profile for ScythKing   Email ScythKing    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by PokePop:
Put 4 Porygon2 on the bench and add another 4...

Makes up for Discovery Scizor, doesn't it? [Smile]

Oh - that's just evil PokePop... [Big Grin]

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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
Onix95

Member # 103241



posted February 17, 2003 04:11 PM      Profile for Onix95      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I don't see how this card can be broken enough to be banned. Yes, this Scizor can get many flips, but that's the same for Exeggutor, and with Exeggutor you don't need to have a specific type of energy for most of the Eggsplosion attacks.
Scizor's draw back is that it has no resistance, and it retains its weakness, so its odds of survival aren't that great. Not to mention that to get that number of flips you need the energy, which you can only have 4 metal and 4 rainbow in the deck AND you can only attach one per turn unless you have Venusaur.
What are the odds of Scizor having 4+ Metal Energy attached anyway, and even then, what are the odds that all of them will be heads. This card looks very broken on paper, but in play it is really situational.

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MrGrass

Member # 166



posted February 17, 2003 04:30 PM      Profile for MrGrass   Email MrGrass    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I agree with Onix95. The card has good potential, but it relies on Special Energy Cards, which are limited by deck construction limits and cards that get Special Energies from the deck/discard pile. Also the attack is very flippy. Onix gave a great example with Exeggutor. It's very similar but not limited by the same energy restrictions. I'd call Exeggutor broken before Scizor.

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ilc

Member # 38442



posted February 17, 2003 04:46 PM      Profile for ilc   Email ilc    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Give Scizor a chance (^_^), when Steelix is rotated out us Metal Pokefans will have an aprrentice worth playing (^_^).
Now about the errata, i dunno I wouldn't. I mean thats what makes this Scizor so cool the fact that you can attach rainbows and count toward powering it up.

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From: Scizor's Domain | Registered: Aug 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy K

Member # 24380



posted February 18, 2003 09:16 AM      Profile for Freddy K   Email Freddy K    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I don't see what the fuss is about. Things would be different if the Scizor had a resistance to Grass, but for all intents and purposes it is like a Grass Pokémon with its weakness to Fire and not much else going for it.

-fK

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yoshi1001

Member # 825



posted February 18, 2003 09:32 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
First of all, where is the eratta here? Errata means to change the text of a card so that it says something different. What would be used here is an interpetaion exception. Normall Rainbow would provide metal-here it would not.

Just being technical.

Well, let's look at the effective cost (how much damage you would do for a given energy cost for what you have on Scizor) versus the average. Remember, Colorless is 10, non-colorless is 15:

Energy attached to Scizor, costed damage, average damage
CCC 30 30
MCC 35 40
MMC 40 50
MMM 45 60
MMMM 60 70
MMMMM 75 80
MMMMMM 90 90
MMMMMMM 105 100
MMMMMMMM 120 110

So, the attack is good at the low end, but starts to become less efficient after the 3rd metal. I hope that was clear.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
TrainerJL

Member # 718


posted February 19, 2003 07:10 AM      Profile for TrainerJL      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I was at the Delaware SBZ with Gymbo, and I saw what he saw. While I don't think it should be banned or errata'd, I do think it is MUCH more powerful than people are giving it credit for.

First of all, in the games that I saw, Scizor players easily got three or four metals on it, plus rainbows. There is enough card drawing now that in four turns you should have three metals. Plus, some smart guy is going to figure out how to get Furret going to search for the rest.

Secondly, you are forgetting about the metal effect. It's not just that Scizor does so much damage, its that it is very difficult to kill. To kill it with one hit with three metals, you have to do 110 damage.

Thirdly, In the current modified, there simply aren't many Pokemon capable of dealing that much damage in one turn, like there were when Feraligator and Blaines Arcanine ruled. What is used now? Steelix? 50 damage max. Blastoise? Maybe 60. Light Dragonite? 40. etc, etc. With a few Gold Berries, Scizor can live for many turns, dishing out KO after KO.

So, while there are counters like Macargo that can beat it, there aren't very many. I wonder if people might actually start playing Energy Removal 2 just for the 25% chance of flushing all of Scizor's energy.

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From: Cleveland, OH | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gymbo

Member # 30832



posted February 19, 2003 07:36 AM      Profile for Gymbo   Email Gymbo    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
The most disturbing part about Scizor in general is there is NO effective counter. This card is worse than Feraligatr (Riptide) was in the last Modified. Scizor can reduce damage, Gatr couldn't. Scizor can counter it's weakness (Fire) by playing strong, fast Water Pokemon (Destiny Mantine or Exp Blastoise), Gatr couldn't. Scizor doesn't need to feed its power of off Trainers, Gatr did via Trash Exchange, Misty's Wrath, etc, etc. Scizor/Water will be the most dominating archetype this format has seen. I personally have played against one of the very best players in the world who used this deck. You have no idea how ridiculously overpowered this card is. And TrainerJL was right. People aren't taking this seriously. Not even DMTM. I talked with him about this and he just shrugged it off. So much for that "equal playing field" type atmosphere that Card E had been bringing via eliminating Fighting and Psychic Resistance on some Pokes. I seriously cannot believe DMTM just thinks this is "just another deck", and it's like I told him, this deck will ravage through the bulk of the remaining WotC large scale tourneys. So for those of you who don't want to worry about facing Scizor later, try determining counters now.

SER2 is alright, but if it's played. Scizor can always adapt by playing Ecogym. SER2 has a 75% failure rate anyways. Light Dragonite? Scizor ALREADY plays Sprout Tower. Not to mention Blasty can go toe to toe with Light Dragonite anyways.

Whatever. I'm tired of stressing out about this. If everyone just wants to sit around and watch the fun in this game die, fine with me. The least I can do is raise awareness and not let this deck only "be worked on underground." All I ask is for people to look at how broken this card can and more than likely will be.

~Jim Ferrell

--------------------
=Pokemon Professor Jim Ferrell=

*AKA The Publically Acclaimed and Talented Deck Mechanic Gymbo*
*Accomplished Rogue Player*
*Second Place Finisher at the Ohio SBZ '03*
*Creator of Espeon Decks*
*Innovator of Expedition Feraligatr*
*Current Project: Skyridge Analysis*

DCI: 2032
AIM: XGymbo01X

"Victory goes to the player who makes the next-to-last mistake."

From: Akron, OH, USA | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
RaindanceKing
Member
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posted February 19, 2003 08:52 AM      Profile for RaindanceKing   Email RaindanceKing    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Actually, I think Light 'Nite would be effective against him even with sprout tower. A smart Draggy deck will play counter gyms anyway, leaving Scizor to do 30 a turn + no defense. Two light waves to KO him + more for gold berries and I don't see anyone playing more than two sprouts in their deck. Waste of space to run more if you dont ever have to battle him. Ooooh, new smilies! (cant get em to work though)
From: Cerulean City (AKA, Oregon) | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
yoshi1001

Member # 825



posted February 19, 2003 09:20 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Well, let's take a look at the last card that was banned-Slowking. It couldn't attack worth two cents. However, its power was very good. Chain up two or three and you had it made-that is, if you didn't mind flipping coins all the time.

The fundamental question with banning cards is what kind of game do we want to play? We didn't like playing that kind of game where every turn resulted in five thousand flips, so we banned Slowking. Now the question is, what kind of game will Scizor force us to play? Is it one we can live with, or not?

I don't know. As was the case with TR Meowth in TMP, I think we need more data.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Freddy K

Member # 24380



posted February 19, 2003 10:51 AM      Profile for Freddy K   Email Freddy K    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Come on, this is way over the top. Counters? Let's use our imagination.

  • Charmeleon (colourless attack)
  • Arcanine (AQ)
  • Muk
  • Kingdra (twist the metals off)
  • VenuCenter with AQ Entei
  • Grass Cube (er... scratch that)
  • Light Dragonite
  • EnteiMagcargo
  • Typhlosion
Adding Rainbow will add 10 damage to the Scizor even if there's Metal Energy attached, according to the new ruling.
I for one will _not_ be fearing Scizor. It's nice, but not _that_ good... [Roll Eyes]
[edit] Grass Cube doesn't work, it's a Pokébody - just realised...

~fK

[ February 19, 2003, 10:59 AM: Message edited by: Freddy K ]

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Prime
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posted February 19, 2003 10:58 AM      Profile for Prime   Email Prime    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I think Light Dragonite would shut scizor down. Not only would it not get the extra potection from the steel but it would be doing 30 at max. Team it up with magcargo and it is scrap metal. You must be fast though. Scizor is a stage two, and by stage two, you will need to have dragonite on the field.

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jdb728

Member # 60530



posted February 19, 2003 11:59 AM      Profile for jdb728      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
"We didn't like playing that kind of game where every turn resulted in five thousand flips, so we banned Slowking.", accually Slowking was banned because it was like the only deck winning tourneys, so you'd have to either play Slowking or anti-Slowking.
Onto the point, Scizor is great, but there are WAY TO MANY good counters to it to Ban or Errata IT.

[ February 19, 2003, 12:05 PM: Message edited by: jdb728 ]

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yoshi1001

Member # 825



posted February 19, 2003 12:06 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Exactly, Slowking's power sapped the fun out of the game. That's what I mean by the kind of game we want to play.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Spectreon

Member # 60305



posted February 19, 2003 01:07 PM      Profile for Spectreon      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
So it cant be Poisoned, Burn it instead. Burn can potentially be more devesatating any ways. Why are ya'll worried about Rainbow Energy. They have to place a damge counter for every one they attach. Metal Energy is its strong suit, and you want to errata it to just Metal. So what, let them attach all those special energy, just makes it that more painful to them if and when you take it down. There arent many ways to get Special energy back from the discard pile anyways.

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CmonIWanaPLaYa
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posted February 19, 2003 01:34 PM      Profile for CmonIWanaPLaYa      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I would LOVE to play a scizor deck with my Muk/Muk/Ninetails deck. Poison & Burn, Bring up Ninetails and it is bye bye Scizor...he is not Unstoppable, and furthermore, If necessary use the Aq Houndoom (F type) Smokescreen it, pray for good flips, which is what they have to do,and then big-badda-boom, smack it around a little. Toss in some Fire Cube for extra Kick if need be---not impossible, just takes a bit of thought--it isnt like we dont have Worthy Fire Type out there that have Colorless or a FC/ FCC attack for Pete's Sake....just my honest opinion.

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Mega Murkrow

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posted February 19, 2003 02:12 PM      Profile for Mega Murkrow      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Seeing a few replies that list light draggy as a counter to scizor, I was wondering if that would really work. I know that draggy's power would stop scizor from taking less damage, but would scizor still get to flip all its coins? So basically, even tho scizor's metal energy *counts* as colorless, does it still count as having metal energy attached to it?

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From: St. Louis | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MrGrass

Member # 166



posted February 19, 2003 02:54 PM      Profile for MrGrass   Email MrGrass    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Well Scizor asks for Metal Energy, not Metal Energy Cards (thus allowing Rainbow to work for the flips). Light Dragonite would make them all Colorless Energy, so they wouldn't count towards Scizor's attack.

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From: A WOTC Store in Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Mudkip
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posted February 19, 2003 03:21 PM      Profile for Mudkip   Email Mudkip    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
as long as scizor is on the bench, you can always play pokemonpark to remove the counters when attaching rainbow energy!
From: Mexico D.F | Registered: Jan 2003  |  IP: Logged
DMTM

Member # 10



posted February 19, 2003 04:19 PM      Profile for DMTM      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
So stop stressing and let it prove itself! Nothing worse then jumping the gun folks. Imagine that every time someone somewhere reported that there was a new deck that will dominate the field and blow away everything else away we banned the card responsible?

That is the only solution. The card cannot be errated. There is nothing to errata. It works as it was intended.

Like any responsible action it will take time to see what the deck does. It certainly did not have the kind of dominance in the other SBZ tournaments that is reported here.

And for the record Gymbo. I always "shrug off" any report like this. I have to. That does not mean I did not listen or hear you, and it does not mean I will ignore it. It just means I'm not willing to jump to any conclusions without imperical evidence. That would be the biggest mistake. I had about six people get a hold of me claiming that X deck would now dominate the environment after BZ.

So let's just wait and see shall we. Frankly I hope it does well. Not convinced it will "dominate" though. I have already seen pretty good counter tech for it.

DMTM

[ February 19, 2003, 11:39 PM: Message edited by: DMTM ]

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