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Author
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Topic: The MMF version of "Steel Chansey"?
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 09, 2002 03:34 PM
I was thinking, f you take the NR version of Shuckle and add Metal to it, it would help it's power, right? Its power reduces all damage it tkes that is less than or equal to 40 to just 10, after weakness and resistance. Since metal is applied before powers (which is why Steel Mime and Steel E. Dratini don;'t work), bumps up the minimum damage requiremnt for non-grass types (Shuckle's weakness) by 10. So one would mean that 50- does 10, two means 60-, three means 70-, and 4 means 80 minus does 10. Also, there is the normal benefit of Metal Energy reducing damage taken. Since Shuckle only poisons (a flip to do 20 instead of 10 per turn, heads works, tales does nothing), the metal doesn't hamper its attack abilities either. Finally, Healing Fields completes the scene. I really hope I didn't mess this up, cause it seems sweet!
[ June 14, 2002, 09:40 AM: Message edited by: Otaku ]
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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Rocket's Sandshrew
Member # 56166
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posted June 09, 2002 03:50 PM
It's cool...but too slow to get you anywhere. Your combo needs a shuckle with 2 Grass and X Amount of Metal Energy to pull off the defense of a 40 HP Basic with a flippy attack. For a lot of decks, shuckle is still easy to kill. Krow with 2 darks just eats you, and poison gets thru all that.
It's not a bad combo, but the problem is, it's not reliable enough to build a deck around, and it's not "portable" enough to play in a normal deck.
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From: Dancing on NG Gatr's Grave... | Registered: Jan 2002
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 09, 2002 04:16 PM
RS: Thank you for answering my question. Now I have another: have you used this card before? I already annoy the heck out of people with it in my Waterbug deck. It's power with Healing fields alone makes it safe for a few turns. the only problem I was having with it was that late game, there were too many 50-60 dmage attacks flying around. So if I start to add metal turn three, that 50 point Flamethower from Arcanine no longer nukes me. I will likely last quite a few turns with it thanks to the basic Hard Shell/Healing fields combo (verified in battle against unlimited decks even). It also has a retreat cost of only one, making it easy to retreat when poisoned. I could also add a Miracle Berry to it. So, is there something else I missed, or a flaw in the arguement I just presented. Thank you for responding. I really don't want to waste my time if my idead is worthless.
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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Dark Psyduck
Member
Member # 41067
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posted June 09, 2002 05:09 PM
Look what's popular:
Ampharos
Entei/Magcargo
those are the 2 decks to beat in MMF. Both of them will give you at least 2nd turn 40. Magcargo blows this deck away. Ampharos on Heads will kill you 2nd turn, on tails, you'll be paralyzed.
Also, your Healing Fields is helping the opponent. Poison is a slow death, and Healing Fields might keep damage off them.
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From: Ohio - about 40 minutes from York | Registered: Aug 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 09, 2002 05:58 PM
Dark Psyduck: Actually, Entei/Cargo is what I am looking a this for. I expect that they will get more than three energies half the time by turn two, but on the other hald, the won't, and then Margargo can only hit me for 40, which is dropped to 10.
Healing fields will likely heal that. If not, they can't have a Macargo on the first turn, and if they use HOwl, they can't attack the first. So I will have at least two turns to power up Shuckle. So I can likely attack them
IF i get heads, Cargo would lose its power (no big deal), but would take a 20 at the end of each turn. Which is 20 more than Healing Fields can heal (it has a 50% chance of healing 20 on your turn only). Throw in say a benched Elekid for after the posion kicks in. On average, it will negate healing fields.
As for the Ampharos... I can't win'em all.
Anymore? Remember, Steel Chansey isn't perfect either. It could be hit by things like Tyrogue or Gligar that were super TecH. So far, there isn't a lot of good Grass-Type tech. And there's no ER. This is very important, as many pokes can get 2 or 3 Special energy on them with relative ease.
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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EmperorTopazJosh
Member # 72195
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posted June 09, 2002 06:23 PM
A problem with this idea is its reliance on special energy, meaning Light Golduck would fry it. Let's see...
your turn: play healing fields, shuckle active, attach metal energy to shuckle.
their turn: psyduck active, Psy energy on Psyduck, uses headache.
your turn: play 2nd metal energy on shuckle.
their turn: evolve into light Golduck, attach miracle energy, uses core blast
30+20+20-10-10=50.
Kills Shuckle.
though elekid is a good anti-light golduck, you will probably have to look out for it.
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From: Milton, WI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 09, 2002 06:30 PM
EmperorTopazJosh: Thank you for the warning, but thats two turns two soon to attatch the metal
First I attach two grass energy (Unless it appears vital to have metal). So Core Blast would do 10 (30<40, gets reduced to 10). And I can continue to attempt to Poison for 20 until I get it.
While I appreciate the "specific scenario" examples, I am looking for more "general" problems. Then again, if enough speecific examples come up...
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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ScythKing
Member # 26665
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posted June 10, 2002 09:55 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Otaku:
EmperorTopazJosh: Thank you for the warning,
Hard to get a good answer isn't it? Seems like everyone on this board wants to poo-poo unpopular Pokemon.
Answer - yes steel will take the remaining 10 off. If you look at the wording on steel it reduces the damage *after* all effects such as resistance/weakness. So the bad news is any damage over 40 and the shuckle is toast as the power drops off. In reality you are typically talking a 3rd turn evolution which gives you one shot to poison them before they take you out.
Shuckle has real potential and a few of my League members have seen and are now believers. I use it because people will do weird things when they are poisoned/confused. ![[Devilish]](../tcg/graemlins/diablo.gif)
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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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desertfox52
Member # 34007
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posted June 10, 2002 10:31 AM
ScythKing, I have to disagree with you on the Shuckle ruling that "steel will take the remaining 10 off". The metal would not reduce the 10 damage left after the power kicks in, it reduces the damage BEFORE the power. This ruling goes along the same lines as the Erica's Dratini/metal ruling, which stated that the damge was reduced by the metal before the Strange Barrier power kicked in.
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From: Colorado | Registered: Jul 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 10, 2002 12:14 PM
Accoding to the Pokemon Compendium, this occures with Mr. Mime and Metal Energies.
quote:
Q. If I attached 2 Metal energies to Mr. Mime, would he be invincible with his Pokemon Power?
A. No that would not work as you apply the effects of the metal energy BEFORE you apply the Pokemon power. (Feb 1, 2001 WotC Chat, Q65)
This is what I based my strategy on. Personally, I think it is better than the alternative. After all, Healing fields can handle the now reduced damage with ease.
Thanks for the support though, ScythKing.
I think I should mention that I don't consider Metal Chansey to be invinceble, so don't think that I thought this combo would be either.
Desertfox52: You're right.
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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Big Daddy Snorlax
Member # 11
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posted June 10, 2002 01:02 PM
Crobat would give Shuckle some problems. The weakness to grass means that Crobat will stand a good chance of doing 80 Damage (2 heads does 40, then double it). You will also most likely be facing Triggered Poison as Crobat powers up, so attachng those extra Metal Energies might be a bit more challenging. Finally, there is the problem of Confusion if Crobat flips two or more heads, and there goes Hard Shell. Crobat also has 90 HP and free retrerat to defend against that 20 Damage Poison.
Crobat will be seen in Modified, and Breeder makes him a threat on turn 2. I do think that Shuckle has some interesting possibilities, and depending on what you couple him with, you can compensate for some of his weak points. I'm not sure I'd put him up there on the level with Metal Chansey, but he's certainly worth a try.
BDS
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From: Oregon | Registered: Feb 2001
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ScythKing
Member # 26665
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posted June 10, 2002 04:48 PM
quote:
Originally posted by desertfox52:
ScythKing, I have to disagree with you on the Shuckle ruling that "steel will take the remaining 10 off". The metal would not reduce the 10 damage left after the power kicks in, it reduces the damage BEFORE the power.
You're right - I was in a hurry towards the end of lunch at work - the power kicks in last.
I do tend to root for the underdog (Dunsparc excepted) - there's a boatload of Pokemon out there that can do cool things but everyone seems to get their shorts in a wad over the biggest and baddest. So let's look at the logic people use:
Can't play Crobat - MP Mewtwo/Espeon will eat it's shorts.
Can't play Feraligatr - Crobat/Meganium/D. Forretress will have it for lunch.
Can't play D. Blastoise - Ampharos/D. Raichu will make turtle soup out of it
Can't play Typhlosion/Cargo/Arcanine - Feraligatr/Kingdra/D. Blastoise will douse it quick
Can't play Steelix - Typhlosion/Cargo/Arcanine will make chiken on a stick out of it
Can't play Espeon/Mewtwo/psychic - Murkrow/Houndoom will read their future quick
Can't play Venusaur/Meganium/grass - because darned near everything likes a salad on the side...
So many naysayers gets on my nerves. ![[Wink]](../tcg/wink.gif)
Play 'em all - you got 'em anyway - so take 'em out for exercise now and then.
Shuckles main claim to fame is that it is one of - hmmm - three? - Pokemon that can do the pluspoison thang. My thoughts are that if someone gets one of those big monsters into play - I want something to at least annoy the heck out of it until I can get my threats up to speed. Steelix is a prime candidate to get poisoned - darned thing is pretty tuff with 3 steels and no fire in sight. People also lose sight of the fact that poison is the gift that gives twice per *round* if they can't get it off - 20 at the end of your turn and then 20 more at the end of *his* turn. That's pretty stiff damage for a basic and 2 energy. Just my 2 cents...
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From: Chattanooga, TN USA | Registered: Jun 2001
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Rocket's Sandshrew
Member # 56166
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posted June 10, 2002 06:02 PM
Like I said, it's not a bad combo, it's just that the big3 of MF right now (Crobat/Gatr/Cargo) can all easily eat the thing...even with 4 metals.
And go Jungle Snorlax!
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From: Dancing on NG Gatr's Grave... | Registered: Jan 2002
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 10, 2002 07:19 PM
RS: Crobat is Shuckle's worst Nightmare,so we can leave it be for now (every Pokemon has a sort of "anti-card"). 'Gatr is in trouble if it botches its timing. If I can Poison it to shut off its Power, then it will probably do less than 40. MMF, remember, so no Wrath for massive discards. Macargo has to burn one energy to take it out, and is hosed if it gets poisoned. And this is before Metal. If I do get four on, then 'Gatr has to Riptide with at least 8 Water energy in the discard to K.O. Not impossible, but can be tricky (especially if its Poisoned). macargo has to pay 3 extra energy to cook it.
Also, here's the Pokes in a deck for this: The new Promo Scyther, for a cheap 40, Elekid to hit after they're Poisoned, and the Dodrio evolution line for free retreat (optional).
[ June 11, 2002, 06:50 PM: Message edited by: Otaku ]
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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Power_Of_Arcanine
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Member # 50387
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posted June 12, 2002 06:44 AM
Plus, If something statuses Shuckle, His power goes off, then all you have to rely on is Metals. It'sa good Idea, but I agree with RS....it's just a little too slow.
PS-I'm sorry if anyone already said something like this. I haveot leave and I wanted to reply to this before I left. Thanks!
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From: Shelby, N.C. U.S.A. | Registered: Nov 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 12, 2002 10:43 AM
Status can be handled by Miracle Berry. It will go off before they can attack (if they use a Power) or attack again (if they afflicted Shuckle via an attack). Also, the Poison is kind of a non-issue: Grass is Shuckles weakness, and the main source of Poiosn, so e's prbably dead anyway. Also, the retreat sot is only onw.
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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EmperorTopazJosh
Member # 72195
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posted June 13, 2002 06:50 PM
Don't Forget about Holo Suicune(I'm sure wizards won't ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif) ) It's power prevents it from getting status errors(Poison) and can do a good 30 damage plus status errors. If you had an elekid, though, This wouldn't be all that bad.
Also, what happens if you face another shuckle deck? A good way to tell good decks is if they can stand up to Itself.
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From: Milton, WI | Registered: Mar 2002
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted June 14, 2002 09:53 AM
Hello again.
After re-reading the posts, I thought I'd add the folloeing comments:
1. I don't consider Metal Chansey to be all that great on its own. In Unlimited, SER owns it. GoWs and other Stadiums ruin its "shortcut" version (insted of 4 M, it uses Sprout Tower and Unonw N with one M). And it is slow versus itself. Shuckle is basically, who dies from poison first.
2.Its metal Chansey's back-up that can make it own,as they won't be able to hurt eachother if they are both fully set up. Alakazam for Damage Swap or Slowking for Trainer Denial. Shuckle gets less by pairing with those guys, but thats because it needs them less.
3. I am going to post a deck featuring this eventually, and both a freiend and I have added it to existing decks. But this is single card, so I didn't want to have to mention things like how in a deck that focused on it, I hoinestly planned on Elekid. After you nail them with Toxic Slaiva, the kid allows you to hit them without removing your "wall". I alos plan on adding in some back-up hitters, like the new promo Scyther.
Later!
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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