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Author Topic: The Umbreon that never was played....is it now playable?
MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 19, 2002 05:57 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Now here is an interesting question tha I have been thinking about for who knows how long. Does dark energy add to pursuit damage? I would think it would since it isn't stating where the damage is actually coming from, which would leave it to the umbreon to deal and the dark energy to add. This would be very cool if it works the way i think it does.

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From: Taylors,SC,United States | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
yoshi1001

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posted November 19, 2002 06:11 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
From the Compendium:

quote:
Q. An Umbreon with a Pursuit attack has 4 Darkness Energy and it used Pursuit to the opponent. If the opponent retreats would the effect to 10 or do 50? I think its 50 because isn't the effect from Pursuit revelant of an attack and it also does base damage.
A. It [the Pursuit effect] is not an attack, it is still just a status effect of an attack doing damage to it. [Ed.Note: So the act of retreating would only do 10, not 50.] (Jul 19, 2001 WotC Chat, Q45)

So it does not.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 19, 2002 06:24 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Is it too much to ask for a recent ruling? I've known the thing to change within a year and a half.

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From: Taylors,SC,United States | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 19, 2002 06:32 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
And(being stubborn) the Pursuit thing is part of the attack, therefor the damage should go up on that too, since it is part of the attack

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In the Shadow of the night,the Legendary MetalDarkDitto will come out and destroy you all.
Why not me? I'm it's Trainer. So bow before me and hope I'll spare you.
Current Decks:Rainbow Beat-Down, Dancin' Riptide,Dragon Fury
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From: Taylors,SC,United States | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
yoshi1001

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posted November 19, 2002 06:37 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Well, from the compendium log for 8/9/2001:

quote:
master_trainer_pat presents the speaker with question #359 from alakadeka:For Umbreon's Pursuit, "During your opponent's next turn, if the defending pokemon tries to retreat, do 10 damage to it." With 2 dark energies, does it take 30 damage if it retreats, since it is part of an attack?
master_trainer_pat says, "The 10 damage from Pursuit is an effect, not an attack so since Darkness only adds damage to attacks, it won't add any"



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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 19, 2002 06:45 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I have to argue with the effect part of it, because an effect is defined like a status, it doesn't go away unless you retreat(like poison, confusion, ect.) and it doesn't normally do damage. Damage is mostly related in attack(exception. Elekid)and not with effects. besides, if you put it on the stack, like you do with metal energy, it seems to turn out like this. Attack is 30, retreat if done is 10. Darkness energy increases all damage values in the attack by 10. 1 Darkness energy for example: Attack becomes 40 for stack one, retreat if done is 20. That is all resolved during your turn, therefore it should apply. Same with metal energy. Rocket's Zapdos with metal energy. Stack 1:70 damage from electroburn. Stack 2:recoil damage of 30 from 3 Lightning energy cards. metal energy kicks in on stack one and 2, and then it kicks in againon stack 2 after stack one resolves. Turnout:Stack one:60 damage, stack 2:20 damage. Reslove stack 1. Stack 2 again:10 damage.

That's my only argument with this.

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In the Shadow of the night,the Legendary MetalDarkDitto will come out and destroy you all.
Why not me? I'm it's Trainer. So bow before me and hope I'll spare you.
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Shining Eevee
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posted November 19, 2002 06:47 PM      Profile for Shining Eevee   Email Shining Eevee    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I dont have kool quotes to post...but I got into a bg discusion over this card...seeing as how even the ppl who answers questions at wizards help mail can be wrong...I dun see why this person cant be wrong as well

Dark energy: If the pokemon darkness energy is attached to damages the defending pokemon (after applying weakness and resistance), the atack dose ten more

Pursuit: during yor opponent's next turn, if the defending pokemon tries to retreat, do 10 damage to it (dont apply weakness or resistance.)

that ten is part of the atack and sence dark energy adds ten to the damage done by the offencive pokemon...it adds the extra damage

everytime umbreon damagese the defending pokemon

[ November 19, 2002, 07:09 PM: Message edited by: Shining Eevee ]

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yoshi1001

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posted November 19, 2002 07:06 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Well, here's the best explanation you'll get from me. Pursuit places an effect on the defending Pokemon. That effect is triggered by attemptng to retreat. Now, in general, in order for something to be considered part of an attack, it must occour during the player's actual attack (this is supported by the focus band rulings), since the damage occours on the other player's turn, it is not part of the attack and does not recieve the Darkness bonus.

There are probably a few more elements to it, but I'm not able to relay those to you. One of the memembers of TC might know, and the MTs definitely do.

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Shining Eevee
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posted November 19, 2002 07:13 PM      Profile for Shining Eevee   Email Shining Eevee    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I just find it hard to argue it [Razz]

Dark E adds to the damage done by your umbreon

if there pokemon trys to retreat umbreaon dose damage to it

simple to me

[Razz]

[ November 19, 2002, 07:15 PM: Message edited by: Shining Eevee ]

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yoshi1001

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posted November 19, 2002 07:22 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
There is no 100% logic system to the game. Understand that this is a game made of paper and ink and that some things have to be sacrificed in order to make things work. Yes, from a purely logical standpoint one would think that since it is called pursuit, that Umbreon would be adding the damage from darkness, but the general rule is that latent attack effects are not subject to the darkness bonus, and in order to follow that, pursuit is no exception.

Is it hard to accept? Yes, but you have to. Everybody's doing the best that they can, but it's never all gonna fit together perfectly because there are so many factors besides pure logic.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Onix95

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posted November 19, 2002 11:37 PM      Profile for Onix95      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Consider the following:

1) Darkness adds 10 Damage to an attack, well, if you applied the 10 damage to the 30 damage AND to the 10 damage on retreat, that's like adding 20 damage to the whole attack, which is like saying for every heads flipped on a Sneasel's Beat Up, you gain 10 damge for each Darkness Energy rather than just adding 10 damage to the whole attack for each Darkness Energy.

2) In similarity to 1, you can read the attack as saying: If your opponent attempts to retreat the defending Pokemon, this attack does 10 damage to it. While the attack did two separate damages, Darkness Energy adds damage to an attack only once, since it says: "the attack does 10 more damage to the Defending Pokemon" Feint Attack is one attack, where the base 30 damage and 10 damage on retreat are part of this one attack, so the Darkness Energy adds to it once.

3) Darkness energy should only work during the initial attack, as does PlusPower, though PlusPower is discarded.

4) The 10 Damage on retreat isn't an actual attack, since you don't announce it.

5) What if you use the attack, then the Darkness Energy gets removed, will you remember that it was there?

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BJJ763

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posted November 20, 2002 05:12 AM      Profile for BJJ763   Email BJJ763    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by Shining Eevee:
that ten is part of the atack and sence dark energy adds ten to the damage done by the offencive pokemon...it adds the extra damage

The 10 Damage is from an effect of an attack, not from the attack itself. Therefor Darkness Energy would not get to add the 10 bonus. Just like Pokémon Power attcks (Elekid, Dark Golbat, Dark Crobat) do not get the bonus, neither should effect damage.

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DOMCGI

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posted November 20, 2002 07:12 AM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
yoshi1001 and BJJ763 already explain rule.

Any attack has the following portion:
1. Cost and condition to use the attack
2. Damage
3. Effect

Many people do confuse between the damage and effect.

There is no simple answer to seperate damage and effect.

I agree with yoshi101 that:
Anything involve in the "Damage calculation step" in the attack phase (between start of attack and end of your turn) are damage. Anything happen other than the "Damage calculation step" are effect.

For example, You could has a Darkness energy on Rocket Hitmonchan and use Crosscounter. In the next opponent turn, Rocket Hitmonchan is attacked and filp head to attack back. Darkness energy do not add the 10+ damage. It is because this is an effect. If the Rocket Hitmonchan is send to the bench and back to Active (use 2 Gust), the Crosscounter effect will gone and no attack back. Anything can be clear by benching are effect. If it is an effect, Darkness energy will not add damage.

Similar, a pokemon being attacked with Pursuit last turn, than the player use "Switch" to bring back the pokemon. It is not "retreat" and will not trigger the Pursuit effect. If the player send the same pokemon back to Active again and try to retreat again, the Pursuit effect will not trigger because the effect is already gone when using "Switch". It is a prove that the Pursuit retreat damage is an effect.

Hope this help people to understand and do not cause more confuse

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MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 20, 2002 02:53 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Have to argue with you on the Rocket's Hitmonchan thing. It may be an effect of an attack, but the card does say "attack back" keyword being attack. Darkness energy says that it adds to any damage caused by an attack. Rocket's Hitmonchan is attacking, therefore he gets the +10 from the dark energy. As for the Sneasel deal, Darkness energy is ruled to add the damage after the attack itself is finished, not in between flips or other requirements that deal damage. Darkness energy is a finisher ability, as stated in the rulebook in "Order of Actions". On the Hitmonchan thing rerouted in Umbreon's favor, it is considered that the Umbreon is attacking back, b/c damage cannot come from an unknown source, therefor rerouting it to the Pokemon. Since it is attacking back, it gets the Dark energy bonus, since Dark energy kicks in during an attack of any sort that your Pokemon performs, whether it be one you called or not. Another thing, an attack doesn not need to be called by you to make it an attack if a Pokemon states that it attacks back. That would also apply the effects of the Dark Energy and (if on) Metal Energy. besides, if ya want to think about it in another perspective, how does Metal energy reduce 20 damage off of a recoil Pokemon like Chansey/Rocket's Zapdos? Answer:The same way that Dark Energy works...by putting values on the stack.

--------------------
In the Shadow of the night,the Legendary MetalDarkDitto will come out and destroy you all.
Why not me? I'm it's Trainer. So bow before me and hope I'll spare you.
Current Decks:Rainbow Beat-Down, Dancin' Riptide,Dragon Fury
Rainbow Rocks

From: Taylors,SC,United States | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 20, 2002 02:55 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Besides, if an effect of an attack causes an attack, the Dark Energy would apply to it because it is an attack, not because an effect is causing an attack.

--------------------
In the Shadow of the night,the Legendary MetalDarkDitto will come out and destroy you all.
Why not me? I'm it's Trainer. So bow before me and hope I'll spare you.
Current Decks:Rainbow Beat-Down, Dancin' Riptide,Dragon Fury
Rainbow Rocks

From: Taylors,SC,United States | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 20, 2002 02:58 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
And another thing (keeps adding stuff as he reads over multiple posts at any one time) and this is for the Hitmonchan. It's Crosscounter is calculated in the damage step if you think about it. Damage steps are not limited to the player using them. If you attack and damage it, it gets the attack back during a damage step and not during any other phase. Just as a bit of inquiry....

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In the Shadow of the night,the Legendary MetalDarkDitto will come out and destroy you all.
Why not me? I'm it's Trainer. So bow before me and hope I'll spare you.
Current Decks:Rainbow Beat-Down, Dancin' Riptide,Dragon Fury
Rainbow Rocks

From: Taylors,SC,United States | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 20, 2002 03:18 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
As for Dark Golbat/Crobat and others of the sort, if it applies weakness/resistance, it is considered an attack in the form of a Pokemon Power. Again, the keyword is attack, which is the only condition Darkness energy needs to activate and put it's effect into play. Since attack is in play, Darkness energy activates and puts it into the damage pool.

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In the Shadow of the night,the Legendary MetalDarkDitto will come out and destroy you all.
Why not me? I'm it's Trainer. So bow before me and hope I'll spare you.
Current Decks:Rainbow Beat-Down, Dancin' Riptide,Dragon Fury
Rainbow Rocks

From: Taylors,SC,United States | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
yoshi1001

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posted November 20, 2002 03:24 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I told you-no 100% logic system.

From the compendium:

quote:
Q. Attacks like Crosscutter and Counter [ed. note: and Mirror Shell] have effects that trigger when your opponent attacks, but they are not considered actual attacks (i.e. won't trigger a Focus Band). Is a Baby flip required for those attack back effects if a Baby's attack triggers them?
A. Nope, they [Ed.Note: the "recoil effects"] aren't actual attacks so they don't trigger the baby rule flip. (Aug 29, 2002 WotC Chat, Q92)

You see, any latent effect is considered not to be part of an attack. This is for the sake of simplicity and consistiency. Does it make logical sense in every case? No, but it is needed to keep things running.

Pokemon is not a game that is to be endlessly debated as how it should be operated, it is a game designed to be played and enjoyed. Sorry if your logic got thrown out the window, but in order to maintain playability, well, some things have to be sacrificed. This is one of them.

P.S. There is an edit icon (the pencil and paper icon) you may click it if you wish to add to a post.

[ November 20, 2002, 03:27 PM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 20, 2002 03:31 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Problem I see with this is that the card actually STATES that it attacks. Whether it was caused by an effect or an actual announcement of an attack, it is still an attack and should be treated as one. If it is not, then the cards need to be reruled and redesigned ASAP. And as for the logic thing, logic made this game, logic is needed to run it, logic is needed to start an argument between people like this one, and logic is needed to solve it. Either ruling that is made here won't matter to me though. If it is something that I believe is right and I have followers to it, then my gym will run on the rules that me and my fellow "logic-users" believe is right. I put this here to win support, not to change my own rules at my gym.

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In the Shadow of the night,the Legendary MetalDarkDitto will come out and destroy you all.
Why not me? I'm it's Trainer. So bow before me and hope I'll spare you.
Current Decks:Rainbow Beat-Down, Dancin' Riptide,Dragon Fury
Rainbow Rocks

From: Taylors,SC,United States | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
yoshi1001

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posted November 20, 2002 03:55 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Then it is clear I cannot argue with you, since you have decnounced that which I consider to be official and you are unwilling to consider the potential result of your decision. I will try once more, though.

Some rules may not make sense at first, but consider the implications of treating every ruling as if it were a unique puzzle to be solved. This isn't so bad for the rulings that are truly out there, but try going through the Compendium and arguing every ruling through your complex ruling logic. You'll wind up with a much longer document, trust me. Every minute difference potentially causes a change in ruling. Now try remembering all that. With so few common threads, it becomes nearly impossible.

If you have anything further, you can always send an e-mail off to custserv@wizards.com with a subject starting with attn: Mike Gills and try to make your case to Master Trainer Mike.

Steven Reich
2002 CSC 11-14 Judge
2002 Gencon Pokemon Judge
Master Professor

[ November 20, 2002, 03:58 PM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 20, 2002 04:00 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I may just do that. It would be better to go through the normal people and send it directly to the man one. Thanks for the address

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In the Shadow of the night,the Legendary MetalDarkDitto will come out and destroy you all.
Why not me? I'm it's Trainer. So bow before me and hope I'll spare you.
Current Decks:Rainbow Beat-Down, Dancin' Riptide,Dragon Fury
Rainbow Rocks

From: Taylors,SC,United States | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Onix95

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posted November 20, 2002 07:27 PM      Profile for Onix95      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Pursuit: During your opponent's next turn, if the Defending Pokemon tries to retreat, do 10 damage to it. (Don't apply Weakness and Resistance)

There are several reasons that can be considered why the Darkness doesn't add to this 10 damage, and I will repeat myself on some:
-The 30 damage and 10 damage are part of a single attack, so the Darkness bonus would apply only once
-The Pursuit effect does not have the world Attack(s)
-It has been ruled in the past that damage done from an attack outside of an attack step doesn't get the normal attack steps applied (no baby rule, no darkness bonus)
-Darkness Energy is only applied to the damage done that is written on the right side of the attack (in this case, 30)

All in all, you can't add damage from a Darkness Energy twice to the same attack, that goes against what the card says. The 30 damage AND the 10 damage on retreat are part of ONE single attack, so just by going with that, it wouldn't add extra to the 10 among other reasons.

[ November 20, 2002, 07:27 PM: Message edited by: Onix95 ]

From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
MetalDarkDitto
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posted November 20, 2002 07:50 PM      Profile for MetalDarkDitto   Email MetalDarkDitto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
If darkness energy works only on the amount on the right side of the card, then why does it boost Murkrow's attack?

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In the Shadow of the night,the Legendary MetalDarkDitto will come out and destroy you all.
Why not me? I'm it's Trainer. So bow before me and hope I'll spare you.
Current Decks:Rainbow Beat-Down, Dancin' Riptide,Dragon Fury
Rainbow Rocks

From: Taylors,SC,United States | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
yoshi1001

Member # 825



posted November 20, 2002 08:15 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Actually, Darkness adds to either base damage or anything mentiontioning "(this attack) does x damage" to the defending Pokemon. Umbreon's Pursiut's effect uses an implied you and is not added to(there are probably exceptions to this, but Pursuit isn't one of them).

[ November 20, 2002, 08:17 PM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Onix95

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posted November 20, 2002 08:33 PM      Profile for Onix95      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I stand corrected. [Blush]

Well, um... still, beside that one thing, I believe I am correct for the most part. Thank you for correcting me....

I would feel very sheepish if I did something like that again. [Bored]

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