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» Wizards.Com Boards   » Card Rulings and Strategies   » Smoochum or Cleffa? Which do you prefer? (Page 2)

 
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Author Topic: Smoochum or Cleffa? Which do you prefer?
MrPokemonChallenge
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posted December 10, 2002 04:27 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
The city code was passed just when Neo Revelations came out. Thus no side-by-side comparison could happen in my city. Before that, Cleffa was everywhere. Even I put it in some of my decks then.

When that code was passed, my all-out hate of Cleffa began. Sad but true.

[ December 14, 2002, 06:20 PM: Message edited by: MrPokemonChallenge ]

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I wish that there would be a Pokémon game show.

Anyone up for making a TV edition of the Pokémon TCG?

Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
MrPokemonChallenge
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posted December 10, 2002 04:29 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Cleffa: Gets you cards but otherwise does nothing. No wonder my area banned it.

Smoochum: Every Special Energy's worst nightmare.

[ December 14, 2002, 06:21 PM: Message edited by: MrPokemonChallenge ]

--------------------
I wish that there would be a Pokémon game show.

Anyone up for making a TV edition of the Pokémon TCG?

Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Maverick Hunter Zero

Member # 6223



posted December 10, 2002 04:49 PM      Profile for Maverick Hunter Zero   Email Maverick Hunter Zero    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
This means that your opponent will need an actual Darkness Energy just to attack.
...You don't seem to understand that with 3 Elm, 3 Cleffa, 3 Bill, and 3 Oak's Research, it is not hard to get back one of four special energy cards. Any player with a brain will most likely smack down a cleffa, retreat, play an energy to that Cleffa, and use those cards to GET the special energy back until it's powered up... Double Gust out the Muk, lock it in, and you're stuck until you can get something to switch it out... And remember, you have the same chance of sending one of Murkrow's cards back into the deck, as IT does knocking out the Smoochum.

For every specific situation you name for Smoochum being semi-useful, there are 5 where Cleffa is a lifesaver...

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From: The strange, frightening world known as "SoCali" | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
kurobatto
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posted December 10, 2002 05:33 PM      Profile for kurobatto   Email kurobatto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Did you even read my reply? I feel like I'm talking to a wall here; you aren't even replying to what we're saying. You are giving completely out of the ordinary situations. Cleffa is in all the winning decks for a reason, you know. It's because Cleffa wins games; pure and simple. Did you happen to notice winning decks with Smoochum? No, I don't think so. Trust me, if Smoochum was so good, you wouldn't be the one to figure it out.

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Porygone3
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posted December 10, 2002 07:55 PM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
man, I've got alot of smoochums if you want to buy them at book price.

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peanutbutter6289
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posted December 10, 2002 08:28 PM      Profile for peanutbutter6289   Email peanutbutter6289    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
this is rediculous!! [ROFL] there is probably a better chance of u throwing 10 pieces of paper (with the numbers 1-10 writen on them) out of a plane, and then having them land on the ground, face-up, in order next to each other, then to have smoochum actually help u in a tight situation. (u just to [Turkey] to admit it)

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MrPokemonChallenge
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posted December 12, 2002 01:25 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I'm seeing tons more good responses.

[ December 14, 2002, 06:22 PM: Message edited by: MrPokemonChallenge ]

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I wish that there would be a Pokémon game show.

Anyone up for making a TV edition of the Pokémon TCG?

Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Crazy Random
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posted December 12, 2002 02:04 PM      Profile for Crazy Random      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Okay... you go play your smoochum and muk deck and you go face your porygon2 and murkrow deck....good job....

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PokePop

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posted December 12, 2002 02:11 PM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
MrPokemonChallenge: Would you please stop comparing apples to oranges?

Cleffa is not meant to do what Smoochum is meant to do. Period.
One is card drawing, the other is energy denial.

All you can do is review how well each of them do what they are supposed to do. Any direct comparison is useless.

For example:

Cleffa
Purpose: Card Drawing
Cost: a colorless energy attack. No damage done that turn.
Drawback: 50% chance of giving your opponent an easy prize opportunity.
Effectiveness: Gets you 7 new cards for your hand 100% of the time (unless up against another baby). Old hand is sent back into deck. 7 cards is excellent for a card drawing effect.
Effectiveness/Cost ratio: Excellent for early game. Giving up one prize for fast setup is worth it to turn the game into a rout. Not as good later in game when one prize can mean winning or losing.

Smoochum:
Purpose:
Energy Denial
Cost: a colorless energy attack. No damage done that turn. Can only use (effectively) if your opponent has a Pokemon with a Special Energy as Active. If he is building up on the Bench, you are out of luck!
Drawback: 50% chance of giving your opponent an easy prize opportunity AND only 50% chance of working at all. Also, only removes Special Energy cards. Basic Energy cards are immune. Finally, the card goes back into deck from where it can be drawn again.
Effectiveness: Delays your opponent 1 turn 50% of the time. Delays you from attacking 100% of the time!
Effectiveness/Cost ratio: Horrible for early game. In many cases, you will not get the opportunity to access your opponents Pokemon with Special Energy. In the midgame you do get some potential benefit, however, giving up one prize for a potential one turn delay is NOT worth it. Not good later in game when one prize can mean winning or losing. By that time, you need to be attacking to put pressure on your opponent. Stalling tactics will work as much as against you, if not more, than your opponent.

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MrPokemonChallenge
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posted December 12, 2002 03:34 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Sorry. Somebody has to prefer Smoochum. Do you know of any Master Trainers who would use Smoochum in their decks (with or without the Cleffa)?

[ December 14, 2002, 06:23 PM: Message edited by: MrPokemonChallenge ]

--------------------
I wish that there would be a Pokémon game show.

Anyone up for making a TV edition of the Pokémon TCG?

Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
matthews028
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posted December 12, 2002 03:41 PM      Profile for matthews028   Email matthews028    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
"Play situation: You have Smoochum active and a full Bench. One of those Pokémon is a Sneasel. It's Unlimited format, so it's the Neo Genesis edition."

Okay. Smoochum/Cleffa out. Sneasel on bench.

"Your opponent has a Pokémon with a Special Energy active. You Psykiss the Special Energy back into the deck. Your opponent draws a basic Energy that's useless on that Pokémon (assuming there isn't a Porygon2 on the Bench, which there isn't in this case). Not enough Energy to attack (let's say that it's a Murkrow that had a Darkness and a basic, and you shuffled the Darkness into the deck). Your turn again. You retreat Smoochum and let out Sneasel. Flip for Sneasel. Heads. Flip for Smoochum. Heads. Flip for your Porygon2. Tails. Flip for an alternate Smoochum. Tails. Flip for a second Sneasel. Tails again. Flip for an Elekid. Tails. The attacking Sneasel has two Darkness Energy, that makes 60 damage, and Murkrow is gone."

So, they certainly wouldn't RETREAT, knowing what's coming. They certainly wouldn't OAK, trying to gust out a Porygon2 to Mean Look. They certainly would REMOVE the Sneasel!

The fact is, in Unlimited, ER would DISCARD it. In MMF, there's a small amount of Special Energy, and if you DO go against one, you might as well ER2 it! Come on.

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It's sad, but true. AND...

SLOWKING IS BANNED FROM MMF.

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kurobatto
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posted December 12, 2002 04:36 PM      Profile for kurobatto   Email kurobatto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Things really come down to:

Cleffa: Guaranteed drawing 7 cards (which is more incredible than it might seem to you.)

Smoochum: 50% chance of shuffling one Special Energy into your opponent's deck. This is nothing considering most good Modified decks aren't reliant on Special Energy. If they are, they will draw it back with ease.

You know what; go play Smoochum. It doesn't bother me if you don't win as many games as you would with Cleffa. Do you honestly think all of us are wrong and you are right?

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kurobatto
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posted December 12, 2002 04:38 PM      Profile for kurobatto   Email kurobatto    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Btw, drawing power wins you games. Hey, guess what. We play what wins us games. [Big Grin]

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MrPokemonChallenge
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posted December 13, 2002 02:40 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Of course Smoochum is easier to come by, figuring it is Common compared to Cleffa's Rare.

[ December 14, 2002, 06:25 PM: Message edited by: MrPokemonChallenge ]

--------------------
I wish that there would be a Pokémon game show.

Anyone up for making a TV edition of the Pokémon TCG?

Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Raikou1234
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posted December 13, 2002 03:21 PM      Profile for Raikou1234      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
Here's another issue that makes Smoochum better: the rarity of the card. Smoochum is of Common rarity. Cleffa is of Rare rarity. You're far more likely to find a Smoochum in a Neo Revelations booster than finding a Cleffa in a Neo Genesis booster. I bet there are more Smoochum currently in decks than there are Cleffa cards total.

umm.... The bottom part...You're kidding, right? Look at the deck forum...You've been posting there probably every day, and nearly every deck has cleffa in it, and the others? They don't have smoochum... Also, don't you think Cleffa was rare for a reason? He's rare because he's much better...Also, you look at nearly every deck... Don't you notice there's most of the time more trainers then anything? Speed = A better chance for drawing that card... with little/no speed, you just draw, one at a time, waiting and waiting...You need speed to get the card you want.
And, I think, look at the Champion's deck on the Wizards Site. I now who won, and he played cleffa, not smoochum, right? Also, he played speed! You need to look at the facts, what gets played more, and you'll see why you need cleffa, not smoochum....

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Meganium45

Member # 99835



posted December 13, 2002 03:24 PM      Profile for Meganium45   Email Meganium45    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Umm, No.

Any player worth his salt has at least 1-2 Cleffa in his deck. Used to be 2-3, even 4 sometimes, but now that Slowking is gone, Cleffa has been weakened.

Could Smoochum become more important? Yes. Looks like there are some great Special Energy cards coming out in Aquapolis, meaning Smoochum could effect Rainbow, Dark, Metal, Full Heal, Crystal, Boost, and Warp Energies, oh yeah, and potion energy.

Would I rather use a Tyrogue and an Energy Removal 2? Yes. Energy Removal 2 discards the energy cards, just as Super Energy Removal 2 will. Shuffling the energy back into your opponent's deck actually gives them an advantage!

Quite simply, Smoochum is a worthless piece of cardboard, that is the first of the babies that start flip a coin and waste my time...Should have had a retreat cost, then it would be a full e-style waste of time baby.

When we draft Genesis/Revelation, my boys are trained to avoid this nasty rat at all costs, unless they want to waste deck space with a card that could delay their opponent by making them flip a coin to attack. That is the best use for this card. Waste of space, baby delay filler.

Man, I wonder if all KC players play this thing in their deck? Know KC the professor of Poke didn't, and he is a superior Pokemon player!

Hope to go up against a well built Smoochum support deck sometime. Would like to see how it works in the hands of someone who believes in it.

Good luck, see you on the boards

Meganium 45

--------------------
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Too bad we never have room for our bench - - lol.

From: St. Louis, Missouri | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
MrPokemonChallenge
Member
Member # 117167



posted December 13, 2002 03:59 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Any player worth his salt has at least 1-2 Cleffa in his deck. Used to be 2-3, even 4 sometimes, but now that Slowking is gone, Cleffa has been weakened.

True.
quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Could Smoochum become more important? Yes. Looks like there are some great Special Energy cards coming out in Aquapolis, meaning Smoochum could effect Rainbow, Dark, Metal, Full Heal, Crystal, Boost, and Warp Energies, oh yeah, and potion energy.

So when is Aquapolis being placed on the TCG site? Then I can learn what's in it!
quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Would I rather use a Tyrogue and an Energy Removal 2? Yes. Energy Removal 2 discards the energy cards, just as Super Energy Removal 2 will. Shuffling the energy back into your opponent's deck actually gives them an advantage!

They all require a coin flip. They all have an equal chance of not working than of working.
quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Quite simply, Smoochum is a worthless piece of cardboard, that is the first of the babies that start flip a coin and waste my time...Should have had a retreat cost, then it would be a full e-style waste of time baby.

Smoochum is a Neo card. You can tell an e-card from a Neo card because there are spots for e-Reader strips.
quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
When we draft Genesis/Revelation, my boys are trained to avoid this nasty rat at all costs, unless they want to waste deck space with a card that could delay their opponent by making them flip a coin to attack. That is the best use for this card. Waste of space, baby delay filler.

Which Pokémon are you reffering to?
quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Man, I wonder if all KC players play this thing in their deck? Know KC the professor of Poke didn't, and he is a superior Pokemon player!

Who is this KC the professor of Poké?
quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Hope to go up against a well built Smoochum support deck sometime. Would like to see how it works in the hands of someone who believes in it.

There are tons of them out there. You just don't see too many of them.

[ December 14, 2002, 06:28 PM: Message edited by: MrPokemonChallenge ]

--------------------
I wish that there would be a Pokémon game show.

Anyone up for making a TV edition of the Pokémon TCG?

Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
IPGeek21

Member # 184



posted December 13, 2002 05:44 PM      Profile for IPGeek21   Email IPGeek21    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I DO NOT WANT TO DO ALL THAT WORK:

MrPokemonChallenge , When you post your decks PLEASE type WHAT changes YOU will not consider... it is frustrating members who are REPLYING with suggestions that you keep saying YOU WILL NOT CONSIDER.

I am not going to edit EACH and every one of your decks (that will make this mod unhappy) SO can you PLEASE add a line to each one of YOUR POSTS that You will NOT include cleffa in your decks because your AREA has banned them (or not allow them)

THANK YOU.

PS Everybody else, PLEASE keep yer cool in the deck section... Danke Schoen!

Edit: TO WHOM & WHOMS I refer to, lol Otaku

[ December 13, 2002, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]

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SHUT UP & DO something about it

From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
swanton_1717
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posted December 13, 2002 05:50 PM      Profile for swanton_1717   Email swanton_1717    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
OMG Tyrogue is awesome! But Smoochum is better then the E babies cause of the free retreat. O BTW KCtheprofessorpoke is only on Pojo... I need to get him on Wizpog

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From: St. Louis MO | Registered: Sep 2002  |  IP: Logged
Otaku

Member # 42359



posted December 13, 2002 05:50 PM      Profile for Otaku   Email Otaku    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by IPGeek21:
I DO NOT WANT TO DO ALL THAT WORK:

When you post your decks PLEASE type WHAT changes YOU will not consider... it is frustrating members who are REPLYING with suggestions that you keep saying YOU WILL NOT CONSIDER.

I am not going to edit EACH and every one of your decks (that will make this mod unhappy) SO can you PLEASE add a line to each one of YOUR POSTS that You will NOT include cleffa in your decks because your AREA has banned them (or not allow them)

THANK YOU.

PS Everybody else, PLEASE keep yer cool in the deck section... Danke Schoen!

[Confused] [Dubious] Me thinks someone posted on the wrong topic... [ROFL]

--------------------
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matthewssandslash
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posted December 13, 2002 11:00 PM      Profile for matthewssandslash   Email matthewssandslash    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by MrPokemonChallenge:
quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Any player worth his salt has at least 1-2 Cleffa in his deck. Used to be 2-3, even 4 sometimes, but now that Slowking is gone, Cleffa has been weakened.

True, but Cleffa was weak before. I doubt you can find Cleffa after January 1.
Any player worth his salt runs 4, unless it's Draft. Period. Cleffa remains the unoquivocal best card in the game.

quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Could Smoochum become more important? Yes. Looks like there are some great Special Energy cards coming out in Aquapolis, meaning Smoochum could effect Rainbow, Dark, Metal, Full Heal, Crystal, Boost, and Warp Energies, oh yeah, and potion energy.

So when is Aquapolis being placed on the TCG site? Then I can verify. When I read the strategy articles, then we can talk about these Energies.[/QUOTE]

Smoochum is still weaker than ER2, if for some sick reason you wanted to use ER2 in the first place.

quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Would I rather use a Tyrogue and an Energy Removal 2? Yes. Energy Removal 2 discards the energy cards, just as Super Energy Removal 2 will. Shuffling the energy back into your opponent's deck actually gives them an advantage!

They all require a coin flip! [/QUOTE]

ROFL! And Smoochum doesn't?

quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Quite simply, Smoochum is a worthless piece of cardboard, that is the first of the babies that start flip a coin and waste my time...Should have had a retreat cost, then it would be a full e-style waste of time baby.

Smoochum is a Neo card. And Cleffa should have had a Retreat Cost, not poor Smoochum![/QUOTE]

... Ya, Smoochum is a worthless pice of cardboard.

quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
When we draft Genesis/Revelation, my boys are trained to avoid this nasty rat at all costs, unless they want to waste deck space with a card that could delay their opponent by making them flip a coin to attack. That is the best use for this card. Waste of space, baby delay filler.

You are reffering to Cleffa, right?[/QUOTE]

Smoochum is horrid, even MORESO in Draft, because there are no Special Energies.

quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Man, I wonder if all KC players play this thing in their deck? Know KC the professor of Poke didn't, and he is a superior Pokemon player!

What are you talking about?[/QUOTE]

Don't sweat that comment.

quote:
Originally posted by Meganium45:
Hope to go up against a well built Smoochum support deck sometime. Would like to see how it works in the hands of someone who believes in it.

Just oppose someone who did the right thing and traded all the Cleffas for Smoochums. That makes it a good fight.
[/QUOTE]

Lol, not much chance of a well-built Smoochum deck. If you can't understnd that card drawing = winning, you are beyond our aid.

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From: Here, I think... I'm not sure though. =/ | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
MrPokemonChallenge
Member
Member # 117167



posted December 14, 2002 06:30 PM      Profile for MrPokemonChallenge      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Me dan mucha risa... lol... que importa?

*ahem* STAY on topic... ipg21


[ December 14, 2002, 08:06 PM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]

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I wish that there would be a Pokémon game show.

Anyone up for making a TV edition of the Pokémon TCG?

Don't pester me "Add Neo Cleffa"--my area won't allow it!

From: Kansas City, MO | Registered: Dec 2002  |  IP: Logged
Gengar13531
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Member # 118727



posted December 14, 2002 07:27 PM      Profile for Gengar13531      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
CLEFFA!!!!!!! [Smile]
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TheAnswer3

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posted December 14, 2002 08:18 PM      Profile for TheAnswer3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
This is really starting to get on my nerves [Mad]

Mrpokemonchallenge: You have seen how people compare cleffa to smoochum but you know what everyone is welcome to their own opinion so think smoochum is better personally i dont care. But why are you still adding wood to the fire? Why cant you just stop saying i wont consider why dont you try some CLEFFA and see how it works ya might be suprised. Seriously are you trying to do this as a popularity statement or just to get on the nerves of the Poke WorlD?
All i really mean by this is to stop making us more frustrated and upset by posting your views in this topic, WHEN will all this smoochum madness end???
[Confused]
TheAnswer3
Btw: for those of you that dont take spanish Me Dan mucha risa i interpret as Ive made/caused much or a lot of Laughter. Huh does that help the mods do something about this?

[ December 14, 2002, 08:26 PM: Message edited by: TheAnswer3 ]

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From: Michigan | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
Yo3ZekeYokiMiki13
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posted December 14, 2002 08:31 PM      Profile for Yo3ZekeYokiMiki13   Email Yo3ZekeYokiMiki13    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Oy, not another one. Let's get one thing straight here. Smoochum and Cleffa are both good and are equal in many ways. I rather have both, and I think they are good together, not apart. I'm leaving it at that. Neither of them are bad. Both are good and that's that. That's my opinion.

~Yulee~

[ December 14, 2002, 08:31 PM: Message edited by: Yo3ZekeYokiMiki13 ]

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Call me Yulee.

*freaks out* I'm lost in my quest to find the Neo Genesis Cleffa! Anyone have one I can have?

Pokemon 5 May 16th 2003
Ruby/Sapphire games March 17th 2003
Pokemon 4ever DVD release March 18th 2003

Come visit Legacy Forums at http://pub13.ezboard.com/blegacyforums !

From: Kenosha, Wisconsin | Registered: Jul 2002  |  IP: Logged


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