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Author Topic: Ho-Oh and Porygon2
Porygone3
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posted December 05, 2002 08:57 PM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Well, I read a transcrip of the WOTC chat, I'm very confused, the last I knew you could convert basic engery using Porygon2 and add a possible 20 more dammage to Ho-Oh's attack, (60 for each of the basic engery +30 would be 90 at the most, then if you made one other basic engery into mettal, and one to dark it would be +20) but- now it seems that for some unknown reasion this power and or attack has been reworked. Now what use does Porygon2 have? Well he still finds ways into a multi colored deck (by the way the best place for Ho-oh anyway) and any deck that has Shining Pokemon almost rely on him, he could provide that Dark engery you nead... but if that basic rass engery now counts as mettal, but its still a grass basic card and can't give Ho-oh +10 dammage?
So like if you have 4 fire engery on Ho-oh and have 1 Porygon2 change one of those fire into watter, you will still only do 30+10, not 30+20.

Go figgure.

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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
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From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
MrGrass

Member # 166



posted December 05, 2002 09:23 PM      Profile for MrGrass   Email MrGrass    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking or trying to say, but:
You'd have 30+20 if you did what you said. An Energy Card is considered to be a card of the type of energy that it provides. In your example, the Fire Energy Card "Converted" by Porygon2 would become a Water Energy Card until the end of the turn. That makes 2 different types of basic energy cards on Ho-oh, so Rainbow Burn would do 50 damage. 30base+ 10 for the Water + 10 for the Fire.
Keep in mind that Porygon2 can only Convert basic energy cards, so DCE, Darkness Enery, etc. could not be Converted.

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From: A WOTC Store in Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

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posted December 05, 2002 09:30 PM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
MrGrass: Not according to the chat today!
DMTM ruled that changing a Grass card to Fire does make it a Fire card, but not a BASIC Fire card! So, it's a Special Fire card I guess?

Go figure! @_@

It makes no sense to me. I plan on discussing this and seeing if I can help get it reversed back to the way it was...

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Porygone3
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posted December 05, 2002 09:33 PM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
long quote follows:

darkmt_mike presents the speaker with question #52 from m_p_douglas:
In the Master Card Rulings under Ho-oh "Rainbow Burn" there is a question that has some very bad math in it. Unfortionately, the answer is math as well. The question has Ho-oh (nonholo) with 4 grass energy on it. It has Porygon2 on the bench using its Pokemon Power "Energy Converter" to turn one of the Grass Energies attached to Ho-oh to Fire Energy. Will Porygon2's Pokemon Power (or other similiar situations) help Ho-oh's attack do 10 addition damage? I am reasking this question because the bad math in the orginal question makes the answer ambiguous.
darkmt_mike says, "The Ho-Oh only does 10 more for each type of Basic Energy card."
darkmt_mike says, "A basic Enargy card whoes type is changed still counts as the original basic Energy card.."
darkmt_mike says, "..and the new types Energy card."
darkmt_mike says, "So a Grass Energy card on Ho-oh is a Grass basic Energy card if it is changed to provide fire it is still a Grass Basic Energy card."
darkmt_mike says, "It would also count as a Fire Energy card, but not a Basic Fire Energy card. Clear?"

end quote

then more followed :

darkmt_mike presents the speaker with question #52 from m_p_douglas:
In the Master Card Rulings under Ho-oh "Rainbow Burn" there is a question that has some very bad math in it. Unfortionately, the answer is math as well. The question has Ho-oh (nonholo) with 4 grass energy on it. It has Porygon2 on the bench using its Pokemon Power "Energy Converter" to turn one of the Grass Energies attached to Ho-oh to Fire Energy. Will Porygon2's Pokemon Power (or other similiar situations) help Ho-oh's attack do 10 addition damage? I am reasking this question because the bad math in the orginal question makes the answer ambiguous.
darkmt_mike says, "The Ho-Oh only does 10 more for each type of Basic Energy card."
darkmt_mike says, "A basic Enargy card whoes type is changed still counts as the original basic Energy card.."
darkmt_mike says, "..and the new types Energy card."
darkmt_mike says, "So a Grass Energy card on Ho-oh is a Grass basic Energy card if it is changed to provide fire it is still a Grass Basic Energy card."
darkmt_mike says, "It would also count as a Fire Energy card, but not a Basic Fire Energy card. Clear?"

end more part 2.

then...

master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #65 from lucky_cal:
So if it's converted by Porygon2, it is no longer a Basic Energy card... does that mean 2 Porygon2's can't convert the same energy card in a turn?
master_trainer_mike says, "It is still a basic energy card. It is a grass basic energy card that provides fire energy, so it counts as a fire energy card, comprende?"

there you go.

so in other words? Umm it looks like you dont get the +10 dammage from converted engery. Log out.

thanks for making that clear MTM. :/

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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"

From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
SteveP

Member # 14743


posted December 05, 2002 10:00 PM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
FYI, the Japanese version of Ho-oh's Rainbow Burn is different than the WOTC version. Here's the Japanese version according to Edo:

quote:
CCCC: Rainbow Burn: 30+
Effect: This attack does 10 more damage for each type of Basic Energy card attached to this Pokemon. If you have two or more Basic Energy cards of 1 type attached to this Pokemon, it only does 10 more damage.

So, in Japan a Ho-oh with 2 grass, 1 fire, and 1 lightning would only do 40 damage instead of 60 damage. While Ho-oh has become a bit less powerful because of the new Energy Converter ruling, it's STILL better than the Japanese version.

Pokepop, don't you think MTM is just trying to be consistent with the general rule that Basic Energy Type and Basic Energy Card are treated differently? Although this ruling caught me by surprise, to me, it appears to be the proper ruling.

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vincent0906
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posted December 06, 2002 04:47 AM      Profile for vincent0906   Email vincent0906    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
But what happened if i attach a Rainbow Energy promo on Ho-oh ???

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BJJ763

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posted December 06, 2002 05:17 AM      Profile for BJJ763   Email BJJ763    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Rainbow Energy card is not a Basic Energy card so does not provide +10.

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PokePop

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posted December 06, 2002 06:25 AM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
SteveP: But you start out with a Basic Energy card. Why does changing its color change it from being a Basic Energy card?

Also, I think you are misinterpreting the Japanese wording. To me, it just means that you only count the Grass once, not twice. You still count the other colors.

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DOMCGI

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posted December 06, 2002 11:50 AM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I believe the new rule is very bad. This make the game more complicated.

In the old rule, if a Grass Basic energy is convert to provide Fire, it will only has 1 identity: Fire Basic Energy Card. Any where in the card refer to a Grass Energy card will no touch the Grass->Fire Energy card. A better example is the Rocket Zapdos. If Rocket Zapdos has 4 Basic Lightning Energy card and one is convert to provide Grass energy. In the ElectroBurn, there will be only 3 Lightning Energy card.

From what I read in the new rule: from DMTM example, a Basic Grass Energy Card coverted to provide fire will has 2 idenetities: Actually identity-It STILL a Basic Grass energy card; Final indentidy-it is a Special Fire energy card.

******************************
darkmt_mike says, "A basic Enargy card whoes type is changed still counts as the original basic Energy card.."
darkmt_mike says, "..and the new types Energy card."
**********************************

On the R. Zapdos case, will the actual L. Energy card still cause damage?

For the new rule supporter, they can say that only the final identity will be consider in game play. Actual identity will be ignored.

My opinion, why we introduce the new terms Actual/Final identity to make the game more complicated? Do we remember the "Real Damage KO" trouble on the Focus Band?

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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
SteveP

Member # 14743


posted December 06, 2002 03:30 PM      Profile for SteveP   Email SteveP    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Pokepop, yah, I suppose you're right. The Japanese card could possibly be read to do damage as you've said. I guess we'll just have to ask a person who reads Japanese to clarify.

Also Pokepop, while you can change the type of energy that a basic energy card provides, like MTM said, the basic energy card itself hasn't changed. [Confused]

Anyway, this is a ruling I can understand; nevertheless, I once encouraged a new player to put Porygone 2 in her Ho-oh Rainbow Burn deck because I too once thought you could do the Energy Converter combo thingee. [Confused]

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From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001  |  IP: Logged
Porygone3
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posted December 06, 2002 03:34 PM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
umm this rulling- does that meen if I convert a basic engery I now have two engerys on me- since acording to DMTM (Who still has not yet responded to this post thank you for enlighting us--) You would have the basic phychic engery and now a converted lighting engery card on that pokemon (although you only have 1 card on it) now I can attack with shining mewtwo and use refelective barreror, with only 1 engery card attached.
Oh wait, better yet, I'll convert a fighting engery into a fighting engery so I now have 2 fighting engery provided and now I can flip twice on any attack that says flip a coin for each engery attached, oh look I made Dark Tyrantar better with only 1 Porygon2. Wow with 4 on the bench I could do alot of flips, thanks so much for making Ho-oh do 20 less dammage and opening a loop hole that alows me to rec havic -- not to mention what happens to that basic engery card if I convert just the 1 card 4 times, I still have the basic engery card counting as fire, now its watter, but I converted it to fire again so now its fire and counts as fire but it did count as watter so maybe I should just say that its still watter - but the power cancels itself out- oh wait... my heads going to explode because now I have a Sabrinas Alakazam agenst an Alakazam from E-card and now they have a copy of every attack I have out- and then I send out a Brock's ninetails and they send out a ditto.... @_@. (basicly I'm saying this rulling is confusing.)

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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"

From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
yoshi1001

Member # 825



posted December 06, 2002 04:47 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
1. Literal: What does the card say?

From the oracle:

{C}{C}{C}{C} Rainbow Burn This attack does 30 damage plus 10 more damage for each type of Basic Energy card, if any, attached to Ho-oh. 30+

Well, there are two possible interpetations: Either the type is inexorably tied to the basic type, or you can have a type of card that is not the basic type but counts as the card's type for virtually all other purposes.

2. Intent: What does it seem like the card should do?

Looks to me like the text is designed to keep people from abusing rainbow energy.

3. Original Japanese: What did the Japanese card say?

No help.

4. Broken v. Non-Broken: is either interpetion extremely unbalancing to the game?

Neither is broken.

5. Feasibility: Can this rule realisitcally be applied, or does it cause undue problems for players and judges?

Hmmm.....

My suspicion is thst there's actually some documentation out there that this is supported by...but I've never seen it.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
MrGrass

Member # 166



posted December 06, 2002 08:56 PM      Profile for MrGrass   Email MrGrass    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
This ruling completely reverses what's been used universaly for a long time. Energy Cards were always considered to be of the type of the energy that they provided. As far as I understand, this new ruling messes up quite a few things:
Charizard- Since Energy Burned cards do not become Fire Energ Cards, just whatever type they are providing Fire Energy, you'd need 2 actual Fire Energy Cards (or Rainbow) to use Fire Spin.
Rocket's Zapdos: Any Energy cards you Convert to Lightning using Porygon2 will not do self damage because they are not "Lightning Energy Cards" now.
This has to be clarrified quick.

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From: A WOTC Store in Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted December 06, 2002 09:18 PM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
MrGrass: It's not as bad as all that.
The MTs are saying that they still count as the card type that they are providing, but are not a Basic Energy card of that type.

To me, that is splitting hairs so fine you need a microscope to see them, but that is what they say.

I don't see how a card counts as a card of an energy type, is not a Special Energy card, is not a Basic Energy card of that type and is a Basic Energy card of a type while it is not providing that type of energy due to some kind of transformation.

"It counts as a card of that type, but its not a Basic card of that type." My mind reels.
We expect kids to keep this kind of reasoning straight?

This seems to be like the Suicune ruling, if you ask me...

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Porygone3
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posted December 07, 2002 02:59 AM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I can see a possible reasion for this, maybe- a card from e-card2 that I saw a translation of said that you cant attach lighting engery to it from your hand- you could attach a watter engery card and then convert it- but if it still is a basic watter engery card that now counts as lighting-- wait, nevermind there is no reasion to do this rulling at all.

I still say any attack that flips more coins or adds more dammage if you have more engery cards attached will now get +1 flip for each converted engery since you are saying that card counts as its basic self and now the converted engery 1+1=2 right? No wait, thats not the "rulling" the rulling "ERRATA" is that it does not count as a difernt basic engery card- ok , now there are young players of pokemon that will never, ever, ever understand this - read the card- do as it says- a youngster did build a ho-oh deck after I explained how porygon2 could change his (mostly watter deck) and add in that card so that he could have ho-oh (his favorate card) do +10 dammage. but now, I'm sorry my young freind, but your porygon2 is not useless in that deck if you play anywhere that is sanctioned (thank goodness we dont follow these errata and play by the rull book and what the card reads with a little common sence!!) anyway- I'll just convert that psychic engery on my Sabrinas's gastly to pschic so I get +20 health in the meen time and I will split ends on this rulling because it makes NO sence at all.
Look, DMTM... if you ever do respond to this post (I hope you do) then explain the ressioning of this rulling- dont just say "its cuss I said or cuss wizrds said" or something to that effect- I want a reasion- is there a card in the next set that would make the old rulling to powerfull- or is this rulling just to "clarify" something that doesnt nead to be fixed?

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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"

From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
DOMCGI

Member # 20344



posted December 07, 2002 02:28 PM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I believe biggest problem from DMTM ruling is: The basic Grass Energy card is still a Basic Grass Energy card while it is also a special Fire energy card.

Two identities cause the problem.

If it is only a Special Frie energy card and no longer a Basic Grass Energy Card, I have no problem on this.

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NoPoke

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posted December 07, 2002 05:11 PM      Profile for NoPoke   Email NoPoke    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Basic Energy card: Has ENERGY written on the top and we are allowed more than 4 in a deck. Doesn't have anything other that ENERGY written at the top.

Energy: A commodity crucial to the game of pokemon

Fire Energy: a commodity. Used to power and pay for attacks and effects that require fire or colourless energy. Similarly for all the others

Energy Card: anything that is providing energy

Type: one of the following Fire Water Grass Fighting Psychic Electric Darkness Metal

-=------------

The Ho-oh answer leaves me with a different question .....

Can Venusaur Energy Trans any Energy card that has been converted to for example {Fire} by PoryGon2?

I believe that the answer to this is NO and it is the probable confusion over this latter question that DOMCGI is concerned about. It seems to be at odds with the explanation as to how we should calculate the damage that Ho-oh delivers.

However pokemon isn't logical and I just live with the inconsistancy untill it is reversed (or not)

edit...found this in the compendium....
Q. If Porygon2 has changed a Grass energy to Lightning, would it be fair to say that Venusaur could not Energy Trans it (for the rest of the turn)?
A. Correct. (Jan 17, 2002 WotC Chat, Q1384)

[ December 07, 2002, 05:16 PM: Message edited by: NoPoke ]

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From: Crawley England | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
yoshi1001

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posted December 07, 2002 05:28 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
There is no 100% logic system. However, usually I can look back and say, "Okay, I don't agree from a logical standpoint, but I can see where they got their answer from."

Not here.
This ruling is not supported by a need to simplify the game. Rather, it complicates it needlessly. Furthermore, it completly defies any attempt at rationalization. Why should there be more than one represention of the card's type?

When was this standard established? Why? Where?

I will do some research into this...

Okay, from TC's 1/24/2002 log:

quote:
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #17 from calathon:A couple of weeks ago it was ruled that if Porygon2 changed a Grass Energy Card to Fire, it would not increase the Damage of Ho-oh's Rainbow attack if there were only grass cards on Ho-oh. Can you reconsider this ruling?
master_trainer_mike says, "Actually none of us ever said that."
master_trainer_pat says, "I don't remember saying anything like that..."
master_trainer_pat says, "If so it was in error..."
darkmt_mike says, "I didn't!"
master_trainer_mike says, "If Porygon 2's Eneregy Converter is used, that energy now copunts as the new type. It could add more damage to the Ho-oh's attack as long as there was another grass eneregy also attached as per your example."

and

quote:
master_trainer_pat presents the speaker with question #23 from crosstrainer:If my active NR Ho-oh has 4 grass energy attached to it, & I have 3 NR Porygon2s on my bench, & each one uses its PP Energy Converter to to change a different grass energy to say water, fire, & psychic, how much damage does Rainbow Burn do?
master_trainer_pat says, "30 base damage + 10 for each different type of energy attached to Ho-oh. Soooo 70 damage..."

Later, same log:

quote:
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #63 from pigdeon_of_death:Re: 17: Wait a second...doesn't Ho-oh say it does 10+ for each extra energy CARD??? Not each energy!?! Doesn't the ruling you just gave overrule the card?
master_trainer_mike says, "Yeah, and an energy card is defined as a type if it provides energy OF taht type. So a Fire Burned Grass energy counts as a fire energy card!"
master_trainer_mike says, "So the Porygon 2 made those 3 other cards COUNT as other basic energy card types!"
master_trainer_mike says, "so ka?"

and:

quote:
master_trainer_mike presents the speaker with question #116 from pigdeon_of_death:WAIT a second... Ho-oh says it's more for each different basic energy card! Energy converted, not each energy TYPE. Does changing the energy TYPE change the energy CARD??? (sorry... dumb thing can't do italics so I had to improvise... =/)
master_trainer_mike says, "ok, one more time, it says 10 more damage for each TYPE of basic energy card"
master_trainer_mike says, "a converted BASIC grass energy card to fire is STILL a BASIC energy card and it is now a FIRE energy card."
master_trainer_mike says, "So it would count!"
master_trainer_mike says, "However, a rainbow would NOT as it is NOT a BASIC energy card."
master_trainer_mike says, "Ok?"

And from their 1/10/2002 log:

quote:
master_trainer_pat presents the speaker with question #1034 from matthewssandslash:People are seeming to have problems with this, so I'll try to get this straightened out... If Porygon2 changes a Fire energy card attached to a non-holo Ho-oh to Grass (and Non-holo Ho-oh doesn't have a Grass energy attatched) does it make it do 10 damage more? It doesn't, does it? PLEASE say it doesn't.
master_trainer_pat says, "it doesn't."

More as I find it...

[ December 07, 2002, 05:48 PM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
GreatFox

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posted December 07, 2002 06:24 PM      Profile for GreatFox   Email GreatFox    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Ow... My head... So, first it does cout, then it doesn't, then it does, now it doesn't again... [Confused]

Why do I feel like going to the corner and hudling up into the fetal position as I rock back and forth murmering "It counts, no it doesn't, it counts, no it doesn't..." [Eek!]

Do the MTs understand what were trying to figure out here or are they as confused as we are?

The only cunfusing part is all the flip floping. Unlike Yoshi, I do understand the thinking behind what DMTM said at first. It makes sense that a Basic Fire Energy Card converted to a Grass Energy is still a Basic Fire Energy Card that now Provides Grass Energy. Proygon 2 says "Treat that Energy card as that type until the end of your turn." It doesn't say to "treat that Energy card as that type of Basic Energy Card." Those three little words make all the difference.

But I guess will have to wait and see how the MTs sort this whole thing out.

[ December 07, 2002, 06:42 PM: Message edited by: GreatFox ]

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From: Los Angeles, California | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Porygone3
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posted December 08, 2002 02:50 AM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
ok I nead to get this back on topic, the issue is type of card. My friend pointed out that if you used a coloring counter you would change someone's pokemon into say (grass) and if they were (fighting) they would still count as a fighting pokemon but be a grass, so would that meen that if you were Weak to grass resantance to fighting that you would take double dammage then reduse by 30. Geez. I cant wait to see what they do with crystal engery...

Back to the topic however, this is a rulling that neads to be changed- it totaly will confuse the younger players that pokemon is geared for- its hard enough to explain that Fralagator from E-card base set has a power that you may use, even though it doesnt say may. I meen, come on!!
Dark Mike... I'm still waiting for a reply.
To all the profecors who responded, most of you are with me on changing the rulling, and some seem like they dont understand this rulling at all.
Yes I'm spliting hairs as Pokepop said, this is a very split hairs subject, if I can produce engery off of engery, I'll have floting engery- for those that play magic, you know what that meens, Oh look I can use that floting engery to retreat, attack- etc... but do I get it back at the end of the turn, what happens to that engery... oh the insain possiblitys. By the way, convert a single grass into 4 grass using this loop hole and put a megenum out and you have 8 engerys for only 1 engery!! Go-- any pokemon that neads to attack with engery!! Oh I get damamged? Oh pokemon center- oh well- its just 1 engery...
Wait- what happens to the converted floating engery cards....

Oh my word...

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From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
GreatFox

Member # 77642



posted December 08, 2002 06:05 PM      Profile for GreatFox   Email GreatFox    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
OK... let me try to clerify what I believe DMTM was trying to point out and explain.

So, you have 4 fire energies on you active Ho-oh and you use your Benched Porygon 2 to convert one of your Fire Energy cards into a Grass Energy.

Ho-oh reads:
{C}{C}{C}{C} Rainbow Burn: 30+
This attack does 30 damage plus 10 more damage for each type of Basic Energy card, if any, attached to Ho-oh.

Porygon 2 reads:
PokČmon Power: Energy Converter:
Once during your turn (before your attack), you may choose 1 basic Energy card attached to 1 of your PokČmon and choose an Energy type. Treat that [/b]Energy card[/b] as that type until the end of your turn. This power can't be used if Porygon2 is Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed. If Porygon2 becomes Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed, the Energy card goes back to its original type.

Now, when you convert that Basic Fire Energy card into Grass all you are doing is making that card provide Grass Energy instead of Fire. It is still a Basic Fire Energy Card that just happens to be providing 1 Grass Energy.

Its just like Rainbow Energy. If 3 Basic Fire Energy Cards and a Special Rainbow Energy Card were attached to Ho-oh which was being used that turn to provided a Grass Energy, how would that Work? In the way that many were using Porygon 2's power, you would be counting it as a second Basic Energy Card and doing 30+10. However, it is not! It is a Special Energy Card which is providing a Basic Energy Type. So you only do the base 30 damage.

Samething with Converted Energy. The Basic Fire Energy Card has been converted to provide one Grass Energy Type (Just like Rainbow Enregy would). It is still a Basic Fire Energy Card but now it ONLY provides one Grass Energy for that turn. It doesn't provide both a Fire Energy and a Grass Energy, but ONLY a Grass Energy. But it is still a Basic Fire Energy Card becuse the text on the card hasn't changed; the only thing that has changed is the type of energy provided.

Hope that helps all the confused Trainers, Professors, Master Professors, and Master Trainers! [Wink]

-GreatFox
Master Pokémon Professor


[ December 08, 2002, 06:08 PM: Message edited by: GreatFox ]

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yoshi1001

Member # 825



posted December 08, 2002 06:12 PM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Yes, basically that is the MT's postition. However, the problem is they said it's always been that way. From the looks of the logs, it hasn't.

[ December 08, 2002, 06:13 PM: Message edited by: yoshi1001 ]

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
DOMCGI

Member # 20344



posted December 09, 2002 08:59 AM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
In my opinion, override a rule is not a problem.

I can accept a new rule that a coverted/Burn Basic Grass Energy Card become a Special Fire Energy Card.

[Edit: a very general rule is a card providing X type of energy is a "X type energy card". Unless this rule is overrided, a converted Grass basic energy card providing Fire should be a "Fire Energy Card". The only quesion is if it is Basic or Special energy card. The new rule state that it is Special.]

But the key problem is why we are keeping: "it is STILL a BASIC GRASS ENERGY CARD but not providing grass energy any more."

This "ACTUALLY" identity cause problem. How do we handle this?

We may get a rule like: "ACTUALLY" is always ignore in the game play.

But if it is always ignore, why should we keep this?

My opinion is the "ACTUALLY Basic Grass Energy card" identity will no long exist once it is providing Fire (or anything other than Grass).

Of course, we may have a new rule new week and get everything back to original. Who know?

To Porygone3, this rule will not increase the Energy as you say. In the DMTM chat example, the converted Grass Enegy card is a "Basic Grass Energy card but not providing grass energy" and a "Special Fire Energy Card".

[ December 09, 2002, 09:07 AM: Message edited by: DOMCGI ]

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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
IPGeek21

Member # 184



posted December 09, 2002 09:28 AM      Profile for IPGeek21   Email IPGeek21    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I have one for you... HOPE I am not TOO late:

Ditto vs Ho Oh & Ditto has 4 lightning energies attached to it...

YEP, I've seen this before AND I HAVE RULED that Ditto can do 70 damage.

Each of those ENERGIES are BASIC lightning energy cards even though Ditto changes their TYPE to Water, psychic, fire, & fighting? So they remain only BASIC Lightning TYPE energy cards?

*sigh*

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SHUT UP & DO something about it

From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
GreatFox

Member # 77642



posted December 09, 2002 09:44 AM      Profile for GreatFox   Email GreatFox    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
DOMCGI:
Well... actually, it is not a Special Energy Card. Like I explained above, it is just a normal Basic Energy Card that is now providing a different Energy Type than originaly providing. The card it self does not change into a different type of Basic Energy Card or Special Energy Card, only the Type of Energy it is providing changes.

IPGeek21:
Ok... see where your going with that. Of course, at Tournamnets, the Head Judge has the final word on a ruling. At your tournaments, you would allow the Transformed Ditto to do 70 Damage. At my Tournaments, in the other hand, I wouldn't. Why? It all comes down to the wording on Ditto.
quote:
PokČmon Power: Transform If Ditto is your Active PokČmon, treat it as if it were the same card as the Defending PokČmon, including type, Hit Points, Weakness, and so on, except Ditto can't evolve, always has this PokČmon Power, and you may treat any Energy attached to Ditto as Energy of any type. Ditto isn't a copy of any other PokČmon while Ditto is Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed.
If you notice, it just says Energy. Nowhere on the card is the phrase Basic Energy card used. If it were to say "treat any Basic Energy card attached to Ditto as a Basic Energy card of any type" then I would rule that the Transformed Ditto can do 70 damage. But it doesn't, so it wont. (Just hope I never get called to rule one of your matches at any of my Tournaments. Cause I always pick at every little word on all the cards involved in a particular scenario.)

While many don't beleive that these kinds of samll distinction are made cleared in the game, in reality they are. It all comes down to how the specific Card Titles, Powers, Attacks, and effects are worded on the card. By carefully reading and understanding the meaning of each, distinctions, identaties, are cercumstanses are made clear. It kinda like a lawer with a Legal Document. One small word out of place, one missplaced comma or semi-colon can make a lot of difference.

For example, the way Ho-oh's Rainbow Burn attack is written:
quote:
This attack does 30 damage plus 10 more damage for each type of Basic Energy card, if any, attached to Ho-oh.
For a time at first, I thought this card did 70 damage atomaticly. 30+10 for each Basic Energy card Attacthed. But after reading it again carefully, I noticed I missed the for each Type part. Well, opps, I read it wrong [Blush] . Just having it say type makes all the difference.

I know it may get complicated at times, but with practice and by taking every Card apart, word for word, you can better understand the game and e much more prepared to face just about any opponent. [Wink]

[ December 09, 2002, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: GreatFox ]

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