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Author
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Topic: What are these for?
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Zubbus
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Member # 125679
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posted February 07, 2003 03:04 PM
I know this thread is probably too elementry to even be here, but you know how hard it is to search the net for the answers.
I literally need to be told what these cards are for. I'm probably asking because I haven't seen the cards they meant to go with. And if they don't appeal to me, I'll probably offer them for cards I need right away.
Gym Heroes/Challenge
1) Giovanni's Nidoqueen - I don't find the Jungle Nidoqueen terribly good either.
2) Lt. Surge
3) Charity - anything besides keeping some opposing pokemons on the bench? (Or get past Mr. Mime)
4) Magnemite - I was just getting to like this one, but then realized 99% of the time my opponent will be able to bench or evolve either Pokemon, the other 1% of the time, chances are he can do 40 damage in 1 hit
Rocket:
5) Dark Vileplume - I can't play trainer cards but my opponent can, mmm what a great idea...
Hmmm....forgot which other ones I want to ask...
From: Out-there | Registered: Feb 2003
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted February 07, 2003 04:09 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Zubbus:
I know this thread is probably too elementry to even be here, but you know how hard it is to search the net for the answers.
I literally need to be told what these cards are for. I'm probably asking because I haven't seen the cards they meant to go with. And if they don't appeal to me, I'll probably offer them for cards I need right away.
Well, there is an aricle covering a similar subject (why bad cards are mad) on the main WotC site. They give many reasons, most of which I find... a little Farfetch'd. ![[ROFL]](../tcg/graemlins/roflmao.gif) Sorry, couldn't resist. Apparently, some resaons are a) it was and accident, b) its necessary for game balance, and c)they don't want to ahve to top themselves. As for me, I would settle for getting rid of the "waste of space cards" and make them all have some purpose (like the Magikarps-as a whole they are not overly good, but they all ahve strong points and do things a little different from each other).
quote:
Originally posted by Zubbus:
Gym Heroes/Challenge
1) Giovanni's Nidoqueen - I don't find the Jungle Nidoqueen terribly good either.
Both are meant for the same thing: big, cheap, situational damage in one attack, solid, realiable damage in the other. Unfortunately, both have flaws that TPC must have thought were balancing and not crippling. Jungle Nidoquen's Boyfriends attack always seemed to ahve potnetial, but running two Stage 2's is tricky. Personally, I think there might be a deck opportunity there, but it'd mainly be for Nidoqueen fans. If both nidoking and Queen had more HP, it might be feasible. Boyfriends could do a solid 100 damage a turn starting turn two afterall... as for the Giovanni version, I think they tried to correc the mistake of the Jungle version (which needed 4 Nidoking's in play to hit that magic 100 damage-a difficult task), but made it worse in the long run by making it tails fails. If tails just did a straight 50, then it would be a good, balanced attack.
quote:
Originally posted by Zubbus:
2) Lt. Surge
I should point out that to my knowledge the Gym Heroes/Challenge cards were their own "game" in Japan. If that is the case, then this card makes sense-its sort of an alternative Switch.
quote:
Originally posted by Zubbus:
3) Charity - anything besides keeping some opposing pokemons on the bench? (Or get past Mr. Mime)
Well, its pretty bad, but also remember: some Pokemon do damage based on what you do to them. It sometimes works better to do less, such as against Rocket's Hitmonchan. It is also a way to mess up Gold Berry. Still not great, though.
quote:
Originally posted by Zubbus:
4) Magnemite - I was just getting to like this one, but then realized 99% of the time my opponent will be able to bench or evolve either Pokemon, the other 1% of the time, chances are he can do 40 damage in 1 hit
Which one? You didn't say Lt. Surge's, but he is the only one with a Magnemite in Gym Heroes, and your comments didn't seem to go with it really. What verion is it?
quote:
Originally posted by Zubbus:
Rocket:
5) Dark Vileplume - I can't play trainer cards but my opponent can, mmm what a great idea...
Hmmm....forgot which other ones I want to ask...
Okay, your Vileplume problems are either do to misreading (it affects both players) or a stratigical error (using it to attack when its your only one). Dark Gloom is very important for Darl Vileplume. FOr once, it is better not too Breeder. First, you can always have two of them, so one can be active and try to attack while the other keeps up the denial. The other option is to use Dark Gloom's Pollen Stench Pokemon Power when your only Dark Vileplume is active and hope to get tails (on tails it confuses your own active; on heads it confuses your opponen's active). Once its confuse, its power shuts off. Now you can use play Trainers, and then when you are ready, bench Dark Vileplume some how (Switch will work until it actually hits the bench). It's really quite evil. Several Rogue decks use it, such as Dark Muk, Turbo Snorlax, Murkrow, etc.
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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Porygone3
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Member # 73689
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posted February 07, 2003 04:55 PM
1- its green, and it has some ok attacks.
2- Lt. Surge interduced some "sneeky" stragitys, he has trainer cards that have effects like no other- Lt. Surge's secret plan, Lt. Surge's Treaty, etc- this is the main stay- he "Jumps" in wiht a basic pokemon, why not just use switch? Well, if you've got a Big bad basic you can power up in one hit, but you dont want it on the bench, maybe a Rocket's Mine Field is out and you cant risk the 20 dammage.
3- Its the attachable trainer card that never, ever goes away- you can attach it, use Elm, it returns to your hand wether or not you used it- good agenst Mr. Mime, Wobofett, Smergie with sketch, anything that dammages you, perhaps a self dammage attack, after you find that the attack would harm you, lower the dammage by 10 so it does 10 less to them, and you.
4- combo it with The new Power Sticky goo and put out a broken ground gym, make em pay 2 more to retreat.
5- and they cant play trainers eather. You can get around not being able to play trainers 2 ways, one- have a grimer on the bench and a muk in hand with a hyper devoltion spray handy, plunk down the muk, play trainers, hyper it back, and smile, since your playing grass you can make a koga deck that brings out the koga's beedrells fast, and with the koga gym out (get heads) put the sucker back when its hurt, and swarm away. With the trainer lock it should make a good game.
the other way is to send it active, and try Dark Glooms power, if you fail at least your confused and then you can play trainers, then switch it warp point, double gust, warp engery/ full heal, etc it (since your playing grass you could put in the one that fully heals, theres two bonus for saying the names)
there you go.
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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.
"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."
"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"
From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zubbus
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Member # 125679
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posted February 07, 2003 07:25 PM
Thanks a lot. Although I forgot to specify I'm asking about Discovery's Magnemite.
1) Yeah if I want to go for 5 stage-2 pokemons, I'll go for something for rewarding.
5) The problem is that at the end of the day the attack has 50% chance of confusing myself. I can't play anything after that happens now can I?
So the bottomline is I play it only for it's power like on a damaged or never energized Dark Gloom. Or attack as a last (dodgy) resort.
I can see it's power is potent, I was just wondering if there's anyway to use his attack at the same time without worrying about messing things up.
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Re: the article. Yes, I've read it. Things like that never bothers me. In fact, he missed out the most important reason, the one that means you don't need any other:
If you decided which is the best card, and which is the worst card, and the worst card is still about the same as the best card, THEN what's so good about the best card?
Put it another way, you can't have card A better B without B worse than A.
Put it another way, take a deck of regular cards, if you take out the deuces because they're low, and repeat until you're left with 4 aces. That better?...
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And how dare you dis Margikarp ![[Big Grin]](../tcg/biggrin.gif)
Sure the 1st basic is hopeless with it's 10 or 20 point retaliation (hmmm I think I'll just use a Staryu).
I use Rocket basic + 1st Ed Gyarado. Sure the 3-water puts it a bit below the curve, but I think, with 100 HPs, 2 good attacks, the 1st edition Gyarado is BETTER than a lot of stage 2 pokemons out there. Dark Gyarado is good too, provided I get enough heads, heheheh...
Most pokemons I see that can do 50 flat on 3 (non basic) energy have 60 HPs, and some of those even take evolving: Hitmonlee, Kadabra.
Anyways, thanks again, and maybe throw me some light on the Discovery Magnemite.
From: Out-there | Registered: Feb 2003
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Wai-Lam
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Member # 99788
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posted February 08, 2003 05:28 AM
quote:
5) The problem is that at the end of the day the attack has 50% chance of confusing myself. I can't play anything after that happens now can I?
Who said you had to attack with DPlume? If you really want to attack with it, you can always Flash Touch it with LLedian.
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You should not read the next sentence.
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From: Rotterdam, Holland | Registered: Aug 2002
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Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689
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posted February 08, 2003 07:11 AM
you could have 2 out
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Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.
"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."
"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"
From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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Zubbus
Member
Member # 125679
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posted February 08, 2003 12:06 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Wai-Lam:
quote:
5) The problem is that at the end of the day the attack has 50% chance of confusing myself. I can't play anything after that happens now can I?
Who said you had to attack with DPlume? If you really want to attack with it, you can always Flash Touch it with LLedian.
Read the 2nd paragraph that follows the one you quoted.
From: Out-there | Registered: Feb 2003
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Zubbus
Member
Member # 125679
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posted February 08, 2003 12:12 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Porygone3:
you could have 2 out
1 for the power and 1 for the attack? That's my point exactly, if The Dark Vileplume can't do the job by himself and I need a 2nd Pokemon to attack, I might as well pick one with a half decent attack.
From: Out-there | Registered: Feb 2003
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Dark and Vile
Member # 74653
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posted February 09, 2003 06:27 AM
There is nothing better than having an opponent turn over 3 Slowpokes against your Dark Vileplume.
There's a word for Slowkings going up against a Dark Vileplume deck: meat.
From: Melbourne, FL | Registered: Apr 2002
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MrGrass
Member # 166
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posted February 09, 2003 07:50 AM
Regarding Porygone3's post, I have to make a correction. Charity cannot reduce self damage. Charity only reduces damage to the defending pokemon. It could be used to lessen damage against reflectors (Rocket's Hitmonchan, Dark Wartortle...) so the reflected damage is less, but self damaging attacks (like Double Edge) will still do full self-damage.
I used to use Charity. I'd use it to manipulate damage so that my opponent would be knocked out at the end of their own turn, giving me a free shot at the new pokemon. This can be risky since they can evolve, heal, or bench the pokemon, but can pay off nicely if it works.
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From: A WOTC Store in Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2001
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Zubbus
Member
Member # 125679
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posted February 09, 2003 07:11 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Dark and Vile:
There is nothing better than having an opponent turn over 3 Slowpokes against your Dark Vileplume.
There's a word for Slowkings going up against a Dark Vileplume deck: meat.
I understood none of that.
From: Out-there | Registered: Feb 2003
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Maverick Hunter Zero
Member # 6223
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posted February 09, 2003 07:32 PM
What he means is, the Dark Vile player planned on playing the match with both player's trainers denied.
The Slowking player planned on playing with only his opponent's trainers denied. ALTHOUGH, the Slowking player didn't play any tech for Pokemon Powers, as he wouldn't want something that would affect his own. Slowking decks always play like other decks, TONS of trainers, except they usually won't have Pokemon Power Tech...
So Slowking is stuck, except without tech. Meat.
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From: The strange, frightening world known as "SoCali" | Registered: Mar 2001
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted February 09, 2003 07:49 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Zubbus:
quote:
Originally posted by Dark and Vile:
There is nothing better than having an opponent turn over 3 Slowpokes against your Dark Vileplume.
There's a word for Slowkings going up against a Dark Vileplume deck: meat.
I understood none of that.
Zubbus: The Neo Genesis Slowking, if you don't know, has a Pokemon Power called Mindgames. Long story short, for each NG Slowking ou have in play, you may flip a coin when you opponent plays a Trainer. If you flip at least one heads, that Trainer doesn't work and is then placed on top of you opponent's deck. If you get all Tails, then that Trainer works as normal. This can be quite nasty as it has been ruled that Trainers that require you to do something to use them (such as discarding two cards from your hand in order to use Computer Search) must be done before the flip, and if Mindgames negates the Trainer, the cost is not refunded. Most Slowking decks rely on Trainers as heavily, if not more heavily, than a lot of other decks, good Dark Vileplume included. As such, when it runs up against a Dark Vileplume deck, all things equal, it has been my experience that Dark Vileplume wins more often then not. IF neither player can play Trainers, then Slowpoke/Slowking, who are also (successfully) played only for Slowking's Pokemon Power, becomes worthless. Since Slowking works best in large numbers, thats usually 7 or 8 cards that are now basically worthless in that players deck. For that matter, nearly every successful Unlimited deck is heavy on Trainers. As such, Dark Vileplume is a very nasty card if you play it right. One more thing: when ever you rely on a Pokemon Power for an edge, you always plan on having having muliples of it in your deck and probably in play. Why? Powers can be shut down in a variety of ways. Global effects generally can't be avoided, but often need to be the focus of a deck. So we are mainly talking about Special Conditions and Neo Discovery Igglybuff. That Igglybuff has its own Pokemon Power, Gaze, which during the owners turn allows them to shut down one Benched Pokemon's Power. As such, you need to be able to drop extra copies of most useful Powers that occur on your opponents turn. Special Conditions can also be a problem-its bad enough that a Slowking can be attacked while active, but when its afflicted, your opponent's just doubled his Trainers success rate.
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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Porygone3
Member
Member # 73689
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posted February 09, 2003 11:38 PM
if you double edge and reduce the dammage that you did with charity, I would think that the self dammage would also be reduced.
--------------------
Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.
"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."
"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"
From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002
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Big Daddy Snorlax
Member # 11
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posted February 10, 2003 12:35 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Porygone3:
if you double edge and reduce the dammage that you did with charity, I would think that the self dammage would also be reduced.
The damage reduction only works on Damage done to the Defender. You can see why when you look at the way Charity is worded:
quote:
Attach Charity to your Active Pokémon. Unless that Pokémon gets Knocked Out, return Charity to your hand at the end of your turn. If that Pokémon attacks and does damage to the Defending Pokémon, you may reduce that damage by any amount (rounded to the nearest 10).
BDS
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From: Oregon | Registered: Feb 2001
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Zubbus
Member
Member # 125679
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posted February 10, 2003 07:58 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Otaku:
Since Slowking works best in large numbers, thats usually 7 or 8 cards that are now basically worthless in that players deck.
Thanks again, you only had to give me the name and set since what's-his-name linked me to this great spoiler scan site.
But I must say that your experience probably is factored by the Slowking player pooping his pants unneccessarily. As 2 Dark'plumes, stage 2, taking 6 cards to set up, only stand to get whooped by 3 Slowkings, stage 1 pokemons, when no trainers cards can be played.
As I said, I like the 'plume's power, just confirming that I need someone else to do the fighting.
Anyways, this sparks new questions:
1) If I have 3 Slowkings out, I get to use them all and as long as I get 1 head, the trainer card does nothing?
2) Is there a way to play a stage 1 without the basic pokemon?
3) I just noticed the Holo Dark'plume is weak vs fire, and the non-holo is weak vs fighting, play as written?
4) The Neo Discovery Magnemite...
From: Out-there | Registered: Feb 2003
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Crobat1
Member # 85086
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posted February 10, 2003 08:04 PM
You are correct about Dark Vileplume. It was a great card--until the discovery set came along. Igglybuff destroys Dark Vileplume.
You play Dark Vileplume. Your opponent plays Discovery Igglybuff. Now, your opponent can play trainers and you can't.
Dark Vileplume became unplayable. Lots of people play Igglybuff in Unlimited to stop Slwoking, Unown N, Unown D, anmd Unown M--it also then stops Dark Vileplume.
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Crobat2:
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Winner, Friday's Open Modified Event, Origins, July, 2002
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Crobat1:
Winner, Albany SBZ, May, 2003
9th Place: Professor's Tournament at World's, August 2002
Top 4, Theme Deck Tournament at World's, August, 2002
Top 8, Unlimited Side Event at World's (Undefeated in Main Draw), August, 2002
From: Binghamton, NY | Registered: May 2002
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Otaku
Member # 42359
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posted February 11, 2003 09:00 AM
quote:
Originally posted by Crobat1:
You are correct about Dark Vileplume. It was a great card--until the discovery set came along. Igglybuff destroys Dark Vileplume.
You play Dark Vileplume. Your opponent plays Discovery Igglybuff. Now, your opponent can play trainers and you can't.
Dark Vileplume became unplayable. Lots of people play Igglybuff in Unlimited to stop Slwoking, Unown N, Unown D, anmd Unown M--it also then stops Dark Vileplume.
Aaaah, but Crobat1 forgets: in most Dark Vileplume decks, you have ways of getting around Dark Vileplume's Power anyway, so in such an instance, you use it, then GoWthe little IGgly active, KO it, and you're back in business. If they play 2 or 3 Igglybuffs (this is the Neo Discovery version, btw), that's okay, since other than Turbo Snorlax, most people also play Neo Genesis Murkrow with the Black Rose. A simple way to foil Igglybuff is to make Dark Vileplume active (Igglybuff can only affect Benched Pokemon). Did I mention that Elekid is also common TecH for Dark Plume decks for that reason? D.V. sits up front with a hopefully confused (from Dark Gloom) active trying to hit you while Elekid "attacks" from the bench with its Playful Punch Pokemon Power. Finally, not that many people play Igglybuff anymore. There are better ways to deal with Slowking in Unlimited, and that was Igglybuffs main use. Igglybuff is a 30 HP Baby. Sadly for it, so many things can get around the baby Rule. Pichu Zzaps are always fun-Dark Vileplume can survive two Zzaps from Neo Genesis Pichu, but Igglybuff can't. My point: Igglybuff is a concern, but like all counter-deck strategies, there is a counter (or 5) to it as well.
Zubbus: Sorry, but you lost me now. I have played Slowking players who did not panic, at least not until the turn before they realized I was about to KO their last basic (usually a few turns into the game, and only my second or thierd prize). Most successful unlimited decks max out on Trainers while minimizing Pokemon and Energy. As such, it is not uncommon for a player to start with only one basic Pokemon in play. Why is that important? I can and often do have a Dark Vielpume by my second turn. More accurately, I have it in hand most of the time by turn one, and am waiting to Breeder. If they do have Slowkings out to slow me down, I can usually Eeeeeeek my way to a Dark Vileplume by turn 3. So either one of two scenarios are most likely.
1) I start and have Dark Vileplume up on my second turn. They ahve maybe three Pokemon on their bench, and whoever is my attacker for the deck proceeds to lay waste to them. Without Trainers, the low Pokemon count (generally 8-12 Basics in good decks) means that unless they consistently pull Pokemon, I'll run them out of Pokemon in a few turns. And if they consistently pull Pokemon, they aren't getting any energies, are they?
2)They go first. They set up a few SLowkings second turn. Now I still get Dark Vileplume out in a few turns. To slow me down that much means they have great luck or probably 3 'Kings in play. So now they have three big pieces of meat and I and no trainers.
[ February 11, 2003, 01:03 PM: Message edited by: Otaku ]
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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001
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