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Author Topic: Elm = Staple? I don't think so.
Prime
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posted July 24, 2003 06:02 PM      Profile for Prime   Email Prime    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
IMO there are so many drawing cards now that you dont need to depend on elm to get your cards. Sure most are supporters and that is the big problem. You either shut your trainers down with elm or not play any more supporters for the rest of the turn. I usually play bill, copycat, desert shaman, and a few elm, like one or two. Some decks can take advantage of energy with juggler and the other one, I forgot.

And I mean, I am not trying to say that Elm is useless. I just think it isn't as staple as people thought it was. I used to play 4 elm in every deck. I don't now.

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"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Dark Llama
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posted July 24, 2003 07:06 PM      Profile for The Dark Llama   Email The Dark Llama    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I never have, why? Because it's useless to me. My decks have always been decks that build up the hand of cards (Bill, Promo Cleffa, Oracle, etc) so you can use them all when you need to, not using whatever you can and just ditching the rest (Elm) I don't like Elm, just look at my sig.

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Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7

Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0

Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.

YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8

My have/want list

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From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted July 24, 2003 09:07 PM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by The Dark Llama:
I never have, why? Because it's useless to me. My decks have always been decks that build up the hand of cards (Bill, Promo Cleffa, Oracle, etc) so you can use them all when you need to, not using whatever you can and just ditching the rest (Elm) I don't like Elm, just look at my sig.

Well, Elm doesn't quite "ditch" the rest. That would be Oak. The cards are available to be drawn from the deck later on when they could be useful again.

Elm also helps prevent decking by replenishing your deck while straight draw cards can cause you to deck if overplayed.

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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno

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Articjedi

Member # 342



posted July 25, 2003 12:40 AM      Profile for Articjedi   Email Articjedi    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Do I really have to argue this again?

Let's take a look at all of the card drawing, AGAIN.

bill gives too little advantage to make a difference.

bill's teleporter is a flip.

bill's maintainence has the same problem as bill.

mary actually loses card advantage.

card flip game is lucky

arcade game stinks, unless you like energy.

mail from bill, don't get me started.

copycat is completely dependent on your opponent, who unless he or she eeeeeeeked, will give you the hand that he or she just used up.

professor oaks research just doesn't give enough card drawing to make a difference

mary's impulse, uggh

professor birch forces you to not have a hand at all, so you're probably wasting cards.

professor elm is probably the most efficient card drawing card in the game, it gives you a fresh hand, better than cleffa because you don't give your opponent a chance at a prize. And if you can't use trainers that turn, most of the other good drawing cards are supporters, so you can't abother one afterward. Elm CAN be used after a supporter.

The next time during a tournament when you lost because you didn't get the cards you needed from oak's research, well...

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Thank you WOTC for a wonderful pokemon journey.

From: Seattle, Washington | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
LizardOTC

Member # 124



posted July 25, 2003 04:38 AM      Profile for LizardOTC      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I can confidently predict that every deck in the top 8 at Gen Con will have 3-4 Elm in it. Those that have only 3 will be the ones that simply could not fit in the 4th.

These's a reason for this: Elm is by far the best nonsupporter draw card in MF.

[ July 25, 2003, 04:39 AM: Message edited by: LizardOTC ]

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From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Porygone3
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posted July 25, 2003 05:22 AM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I wish they made Erica as a "Best" Promo [Big Grin]

--------------------
Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

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From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Otaku

Member # 42359



posted July 25, 2003 12:03 PM      Profile for Otaku   Email Otaku    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by LizardOTC:
I can confidently predict that every deck in the top 8 at Gen Con will have 3-4 Elm in it. Those that have only 3 will be the ones that simply could not fit in the 4th.

These's a reason for this: Elm is by far the best nonsupporter draw card in MF.

Saying Elm is the best non-supporter is true. It's just that I find the supporters superior. Also, use doesn't always indicate the best cards, just what is "percieved" as the best or is easy to get: in my area, Modified decks don't use Elm because he slows us down to much (when over 1/3 of your deck is Trainers...). Conversely, most people chose a deck they percieve as the strongest and use it for big tournaments, even when they don't like it. If everyone plays macargo, it will be the top 100 decks. [Wink]

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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
The Dark Llama
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posted July 25, 2003 12:57 PM      Profile for The Dark Llama   Email The Dark Llama    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by Otaku:
If everyone plays macargo, it will be the top 100 decks. [Wink]

Exactly - if everyone used Elm, it will always be in the top decks, like magcargo or Scizor or Gatr or whatever.

Just because it's in the decks that win doesn't necessarily mean that Elm contributed to the win.

[ July 25, 2003, 01:01 PM: Message edited by: The Dark Llama ]

--------------------
Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7

Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0

Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.

YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8

My have/want list

One Sentence Add-On!

From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
Maverick Hunter Zero

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posted July 25, 2003 04:20 PM      Profile for Maverick Hunter Zero   Email Maverick Hunter Zero    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Look at it this way.

It's not so much the disadvantage, that people choose Elm over other cards, it's the DRAWING ADVANTAGE. 7 Cards is a fresh beginning hand. Most players count on, and DO use almost an ENTIRE 7 card hand in a single turn. MOST competive decks, the first few turns, WILL go through entire hands VERY rapidly.

OR, you could compare the overall advantage of Three Elm to Three Oak's Research. Overall in a game, three Oak's Research will get you 15 cards. Three Elm will get you 21. That's a 6 card advantage, that's almost an ENTIRE beginning hand.

As for the trainer shutdown, that's FINE. This isn't unlimited where Trainers are everything. Modified uses Trainers mainly for card drawing, whereas in Unlimited, Card Drawing and Disruption are about even. In Modified, you're hoping more for ENERGY and POKEMON.

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From: The strange, frightening world known as "SoCali" | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Prime
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posted July 25, 2003 07:20 PM      Profile for Prime   Email Prime    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Hand disruptions is getting bigger though in modified. Cards like crobat, and noctowl, and desert shaman, and umbreon all are being used. Maybe not alot, but that is because OHKO is the main deck strategy right now.

But there is a bigger subject.

When Neo Genesis came out, and Modified was turned to Neo Genesis and up, we didn't have much drawing. Bill was not allowed. We had no supporters either. So we had to work with Elm. Elm was a staple back then. Sure it had a let down, but people didn't play as many trainers as they do now, because there wasn't many to work with. From that day, people have had it in their mind that Elm was a needed part of any deck.

Once the E-card series started coming out, we had a whole lot more drawing cards to work with. Bill was brought back too. But still, because Elm was used for so long, it was still considered vital to a deck. Now that the e-series is over, we have alot more to work with then what we had when Genesis first came out.

So I decided to examine some of the old cards that were staple in the past. Oak was my first one. That was a staple when we could use it. Then came elm. People still argued that Oak was better, but in the end, elm was the main choice.

I kinda think this is happening again. A new series of sets is out, and with it is new possibilities. New drawing strategies are popping up all over the place but still people are dead on to use elm.

I can't say that it is their fault. I mean, when it came out, people started using it, and then all the winning decks were made with it in it. People would see that, and without thinking for themselves, they would use it. Because the "best" decks use it, it must be good.

And the best decks still use it. Because it is still good, but once people start walking from the path that is drawn on the ground by everyone else, there will be different best decks. Maybe you don't see it, but the game is going to creativity. From creativity comes new archtypes and thus new metagames. Feraligatr/Parasect came from creativity.

So I implore people to look into new ideas. Heck, trainers might just be one third of your deck, but if we can find new ideas that are better for pokemon, I am confident that we can with trainers. People are finally starting to team up trainers and get really good responses from it.

Maybe you shouldn't try something new. Be like everyone else. If something works, abuse it to the max. But even if you don't think of trying something new, some other person will. And that other person will sooner or later stumble across a magnificient idea that will put him or her at the top of their class.

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"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Cr1m1nal
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posted July 25, 2003 08:35 PM      Profile for Cr1m1nal      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
listen to what you're saying here, you're stating that the use of Professor Elm which shuffles your hand into your deck and allows you to draw a fresh new hand of SEVEN cards, is a worse card than the other supporters, such as desert shaman or juggler, or even worse than bill? The cost of not being able to use anymore trainers for the rest of the turn does not outweigh the hand advantage that professor elm is giving you.

Juggler at its best gives you a net gain of 2 cards.

Desert shaman shuffles your hand into your deck and draws you 4 cards.

Bill gives you a net gain of 1 card. =/

Professor Elm does what shaman does, only it gives you 3 more cards.

You choose multiples of all of the above cards, over professor elm only because it gives you the option to use more trainers in your turn, even though you will still not be allowed to play a supporter until your next turn, almost always leaving you with 1 or no trainers to play for the rest of the turn anyway.

There is a reason why professor elm is used in every tournament winning deck, and its not because we're too boneheaded to use any other cards, its because the card HELPS us win those tournaments, and any other card wouldn't get the job done. [Wink]

Professor Elm remains a staple in our decks not because we can't think for ourselves, but because its THAT good.

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=/

From: Yuma, AZ | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged
Prime
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posted July 26, 2003 04:16 PM      Profile for Prime   Email Prime    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
You like net gain, well Elm can sometimes give you negative net gain. Or when you have a hand of 6, that is a net gain of 1. I never said elm was bad. Here is exactly what I said:

"I am not trying to say that Elm is useless. I just think it isn't as staple as people thought it was."

Everyone has it in their mind that you MUST have 4 of it in your deck. The biggest reason I have seen is because "all the best decks have it". Ahh humbug! All the best decks used to have Oak until someone started using elm, then more and more people used it. Then one day, one person won with elm and then people could say "the best deck used it" and thus they used it. I can bet that most of you that get argueing that elm is a staple you must have 4 of haven't tried different possibilities. Maybe some of you have, but not half of the people on elm's side.

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"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Satoshi_Of_Pojo

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posted July 26, 2003 05:18 PM      Profile for Satoshi_Of_Pojo      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
...this is happening a LOT lately, both on sites like this one and on sites like Pojo, etc.

I've been at a loss to explain it except that the game has been the same format-wise for so long...what am I talking about, you ask? Simple - players over-thinking the game and second-guessing tired and true truths. =\

Like LotC said, Elm WILL BE in every winning MF deck for QUITE A WHILE. Not playing it - or worse, playing BILL over it - is asking for a loss, really. All it takes is one rightly-timed Elm for your opponent to get ahead of you in card advantage, and you've basically lost.

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From: Elsewhere | Registered: Jan 2002  |  IP: Logged
the Matrix999
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posted July 26, 2003 06:49 PM      Profile for the Matrix999   Email the Matrix999    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
well here my opinion though its not much buti think that elm is required in a deck. maybe not 4 but at least 2 elm, this way you have more speed than stability.i know im not elite or anything but i kow that most who play elm is gonna give themthe better of the options because they(1)draw,(2)put down basics,play supporters,play energy, trainers ect.(3)heres what becomes different because you have used a supporter and cant really do much or play anymore pokemon so they elm.or sit there with nothing to do if they dont use it.(3)attack or pass.
this is pretty much what happens and ive come to find that paying the elm will get an evolution or a set-up for next turn.though you couldnt play anymore trainers for that turn we can look and see that you cant really play anything anyways.
so elm can only help you in any situation as to where i have played my (insert non supporter trainer here)then i've used a supporter and now am stuck with trainers and pokemon i dont want to put down.im just giving these examples to show why it is good. so IMO if you want speed than play 2 at least or stability i would go with three or four depending on the deck. but i can see why some people wouldn want to use it:/

From: ferndale!!! | Registered: Mar 2003  |  IP: Logged
PokePop

Member # 8



posted July 26, 2003 08:17 PM      Profile for PokePop   Email PokePop    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by Prime:
You like net gain, well Elm can sometimes give you negative net gain. Or when you have a hand of 6, that is a net gain of 1. I never said elm was bad. Here is exactly what I said:

"I am not trying to say that Elm is useless. I just think it isn't as staple as people thought it was."

Everyone has it in their mind that you MUST have 4 of it in your deck. The biggest reason I have seen is because "all the best decks have it". Ahh humbug! All the best decks used to have Oak until someone started using elm, then more and more people used it. Then one day, one person won with elm and then people could say "the best deck used it" and thus they used it. I can bet that most of you that get argueing that elm is a staple you must have 4 of haven't tried different possibilities. Maybe some of you have, but not half of the people on elm's side.

People started playing Elm over Oak for two main reasons:

1. Because Modified became popular to play and Oak is not legal in Modified.
2. Because people needed to not lose their Dark or Metal Energy. There is no good way to recover them once they get into the discard pile, so Elm is better for decks that have Metal and/or Dark.

If you are playing Unlimited with no Metal or Dark, then Oak still is your better option.

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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno

The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net

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Porygone3
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posted July 26, 2003 08:53 PM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Draws some more cards...

Drawing cards is good. There are attacks that do it too, there are a few powers, used be more- but now its about two, I love to play 4 Erica because its so much fun to do, use Copycat afterwords, and see what that can do! After all thats said and done, wipe there face's too- Inposter Oak's Nasty, you know you love him too... now though the format's changed it effects me not- but I still understand this current mod-format, you must draw more cards its plan to see- or you'll run out of plans, so he is your best key, with him you can stand. Profecor Elm is here to stay, and say it strong and loud, or maybe you can go over there- and kiss that Smoochum [Razz]

--------------------
Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"

From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
LizardOTC

Member # 124



posted July 27, 2003 03:56 AM      Profile for LizardOTC      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
*sigh*

For some reason, some of you seem to think that the top finishers just get lucky, that the winners build decks with Elm because they lack imagination. This is simply not the case.

The best players, of course, have a high level of talent. However, that alone is not enough. The difference lies in playtesting.

Now, you probably think that you are playtesting when you go yo league for 2-3 hours each week. You are playing, true, but you are not playtesting.

You see, playtesting involves playing hundreds of games per month against some of the best players in the nation. This means playing online through apprentice, unless you are one of the few who happens to belong to an unusually competitive league.

I can assure you that the winning players have tested all of the options for their decks to death. Elm has been ruthlessly pitted against the other draw cards countless times. It is used so widely not because it is some kind of fad, but because it works better.

Elm is especially good for one major reason: card advantage during the early (to mid) game. Replenishing your hand with 7 cards (after playing a bunch of other trainers) is simply the fastest way to get the Pokémon, energy and key tools (like Focus Band or Gold Berry) that you need to gain board control quickly. I often find myself playing 3-4 trainers (left from my last Elm or Eek), Copycatting to get 4-5 more, most of which I play and one of which is often an Elm. I then finish off my turn with that Elm and an attack. I'd much rather be 'Elming for a new hand', and then attacking for damage, than 'wasting an attack' Eeking to get a new hand. Don't get me wrong though: Cleffa is absolutely critical to early game setup. I almost always run 2 Cleffa, and invariably will get one on the board in the first few turns (often using Trader or Fan Club to do so).

Trading card games reward deckbuilders who can achieve two things: speed and consistency. Elm helps in both regards, actually, but is especially important in the area of consistency. Elm assures that you will get to more of your other cards in the fastest, most reliable way.

Some of the new supporters are in fact taking some of the load off of Elm. You may feel that Elm is no longer as good as it once was, and that there are better options for a championship deck. If so, please back up your claim by providing the decklist of a top 8 deck from Origins or Gen Con that does not include at least 3 Elm.

I will be astounded if you can do so!

For your reference, here is the Top MF Professor Championship Deck from Origins. It is considered to be an extremely 'rogue' deck. And guess how many Elms it contains...

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"No! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try." -Yoda

"Sewage Portrayed As Meat...It's not just for breakfast anymore!" -LizardOTC

"Like a bad tooth and an unsteady foot is confidence in a faithless man in time of trouble." - Proverbs 25:19

From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Prime
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posted July 27, 2003 11:43 AM      Profile for Prime   Email Prime    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Listen. It doesn't matter if the best decks played it. Back in the day, people played bill and there was proberly a time where Bill was in all the best decks. But people found better ways to draw and thus it wasn't played much at all after that. This happens to too many cards. Potion was done the same. I'm not saying that there is something better than elm. Gosh, people read my messsages for once. I just think that Elm doesn't have to be 4 constant in decks. But who really cares.

The big problem I see now is that nobody actually tries it themselves. Other then those at the "top" that "playtest" decks until they are dead. And when those people at the "top" find a way to play a card, you MUST go out and play the card the same way. Because there at the "top". Who cares really. People wouldn't change their minds, if they were slapped in the face with a wake-me-up stick. People are just dead set on playing the deck that wins.

Look at the game. Not much creativity. Well not as much as it used to have. You don't see everyone with a different deck, you see just groups of people with the same one. Its either Magcargo/Feraligatr or the other 4 or 5 decks that run over people in modified. This doesn't apply to unlimited where you can use all the cards.

So I don't even know why I started this topic. Nobody is going to change their mind. Everyone is just going to go out and play the decks that win. Because winning IS everything in a game made to have fun at. I rather give up creativity to just win over and over. But to me, it would seem like it would get pretty dull.

But I do implore people to go out and "playtest" your own decks and not just rely on the "best" people's opinion. Their human just like all of us are, and even after many hours or days or years of playtesting, they can miss something too.

Try something original. Playtest yourself. It doesn't matter where you playtest. It doesn't have to be in a huge league. It could be with your friends. Alot of people playtest with your friends.

Well, I'll stop now. For the people who actually will try something new, good luck. For the other people, bah humbug to you.

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"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Porygone3
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posted July 27, 2003 02:52 PM      Profile for Porygone3      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
your starting to remind me more and more of (I belive his name was Mr Pokemon) this guy that keeped on saying that Smoocum was better then Cleffa. If YOU Prime dont want to use Elm. Go for it. If YOU belive that players should try other cards, OK. But- your right, people are not going to change in terms of doing something that may not lead them to victory when in a tourment type setting unless you boster an envorment where winning isnt everything. In my tourments I've seen all sorts of decks, no body has to have a serten trainer in there deck at all time, but most would probley agree that Elm is good. Some dont like the disavantage that pulling 7 trainers meens. I've played games when my worthy oppenent grumbles about neading a new hand. "Ok Mistys Dual!!" I say, hey sometimes I dont even have that card in my hand or deck... you know we have fun, when my winner and second place would have gotten difernt prizes I told the winner that being honerable would meen having the prize split. and he did!! Wow. Would the winner of a major sanconed tourment EVER share his winnings? If you won a million dollors would you split it in half with second place because your honerable? You might give SOME... anyrate- I like Mary's Inpulse, I like Copycat, and I love Erica, but I dont play in these fandangeled sanconed tourments, those that do know what works I'm sure, I would play what I wanted to play, wether it would work I dont know, would I have Elm, Cleffa and Igglybuff? OF COURSE!! Would I use 4 of each, maybe-- there are otherways to do the same or simular results, people are saying Orical without Bill and visa versa is pointless... yah its a good combo- but I could and probley would use one or the other but not nessarly both, or heck I would most likely use underground exploration anyway- Prime, your point is made- people nead to explore. There are not alot of new trainers in this current nintendo set, and two are worded funny (Pokenav, Lady Outing) @_@ untill more sets are reliced cant do much about it. Dont become anther inside joke like Smoocum guy, if you hate Elm- fine, look at Elms Training Method, he gets what he deserves!! In the meentime, find something that makes sence to complain about...

Like Floating engery.

--------------------
Erica total 24, thats right, 24.
Dunsprace total 41.
I've gotten 98 on that Machoke at work game. I beat Driving Corasola.
I almost beat the record in Hold Down hip hop. I got 2000 or so in Kinglers day. I got 7 in Rapadash's dash. Butterfree's Flower Power 4700. 123 In Jumping Dodoro. My all foil deck is finished.

"I've got floating engery."
"I've got counter productive Powers."

"One heart can make a diferance."
"Rock the world baby, rock the world."
"Roll out!!"

From: USA | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Otaku

Member # 42359



posted July 27, 2003 03:55 PM      Profile for Otaku   Email Otaku    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I just find it interesting how so many people know me and my decks so well... better than myself, infact, since they can say that all of my hours of playtesting are invalid, as those hours showed me that Elm slowing me down. Now, my definition of play testing is not as rigorous as LotC: even if I have the time for Pokemon, I can't spare 3 hours and 13 minutes a day to play test as I am not the only one who uses this computer nor is it truly mine (roughly the amount of time per day one must spend if they wish to play for 100 hours, or two hundred 30 minutes games, assuming one some time shuffling and that no time is needed for any sort of set-up). I take that as the minimum of
quote:
...playing hundreds of games per month against some of the best players in the nation. This means playing online through apprentice, unless you are one of the few who happens to belong to an unusually competitive league...
. Now, since I assumed that games would go to time, that is a bit unfair. Still, even if the gmes averaged 10 minutes a piece, that would still be a little over an hour a day. And of course, it not against the most competitive players either: many of the ones I have talked with, simply put, did not impress me. I do not deny their skill, merely that they lacked good manners. Also, they will stick with one deck, which is good for the first 10-50 games, but you really need to test a deck against several different types. Similarly, I find playing only one deck may make you less versatile yourself: you tend to know what your deck is weak too, even if you play more than one. So it is very difficult to find an "expert" like that to play so long, so often, let alone finding an expert for each different "tier one" deck. I have to settle for a few apprentice games versus my friends, who are not unskilled, but neither are high-ranked nor are able to attend most large tournaments, as I too am unable to attend anything more than local. Apprentice tournaments are often not viable either: some of us can only access the internet through dial-up modems and antiquated phone-lines that can only handle a connection of 28.8 kps. I have looked into other options, but all are too expensive or just not available in my area, and I would not be surprised if others face a similar plight. I often get disconnected, and my provider has some lame policey (that was agreed to before I became familiar with Apprentice that will kick you off after 4 hours). Finally, many people have complained to me of rampant cheating amongst the on-line tournaments.

My point: I have deck tested Elm and many of its alternatives. I have found draw cards that help me more than Elm, as in our uncompetive area, waiting a turn can often be the difference between a KO for you or your opponent. So for me, who uses a (beefy?) 24 Trainers on average in a deck, I am greatly handi-capped by a lack of Trainer usage after drawing. Since I can usually use my Trainers the instant I get them and need to use them asap. How many of us play that many Trainers that are "specialized" or siutational? My point, a reason you have so many Trainers to play at the beginning of your turn is that you could not play them last turn, even if you needed them? In my area Trainers are used heavily, since, under normal circumstances, that is the easiest thing to play a lot of: Energy is once a turn and Pokemon require specific conditions (open space for basics, lower stages already in play a turn for evos).

In my experience, after about 10 battles each aginast people at my skill level or a little above, my decks were faster with POR and CC than Elm and CC. My opposition played CC and Elm, but the times the "comboed it" often failed-they rarely got more than 4 cards between the two.

[ July 27, 2003, 05:04 PM: Message edited by: Otaku ]

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Imakuni Rules!

You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.

From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
RaNd0m

Member # 73173



posted July 27, 2003 05:25 PM      Profile for RaNd0m   Email RaNd0m    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Otaku, you were right... I'm going to disagree with you on this one.

I am a player who literally "playtests", I played my Jumpluff/Starmie about 50-75 games against EACH of the major decks in the 6 weeks before GenCon. I've tried not playing Professor Elm... running 4 Copycat, 3 Oracle, 3 Bill... and it just doesn't run smoothly for me. It may for you, and if it does, thats great. I'm not going to deny that you haven't tried it. It just depends on the style of the deck you play.

For me, when I elm or copycat or w/e, I'm looking for something... and I need it quick. Whether it be energy, or an evolution, or something, I need it NOW. When you do something like this, you need something that gives you the MOST bang for your buck... and 7 cards is that bang. I can't really justify playing a 4 Copycat/4 Oak's Research line over 4 Elm/4 Copycat... it just doesn't make sense. The draw power is less, and it gives you more possibilities of being stuck.

I ran 4 Elm/4 Copycat/4 Trader/2 Fan Club/2 Cleffa for my draw power at gencon... and it worked well. My losses were due to bad flips... DMTM can vouch for that ;-) It was risk I took by playing a deck that was based on NEEDING average flips... which I felt was a necessary risk because Gatr/Sect was going to be HUGE. I was wrong... but that was the way the metagame looked.

Anyways... it seems that this debate will be pointless soon. Nintendo will be using Ruby/Sapphire On for their format... it wouldn't make sense for them to use WotC cards.

~ RaNd0m

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The Pojo dude who writes articles regarding the game.

DCI RATING: 1888
www.pojo.com/random/index.html

Major Tourneys
Wigglymaker 5-0 Chicago Mall Tour (2000) (1st)
The Bat Trap 8-1 Indianapolis QT (1st)
Crobat's Back, alright! 7-1 St. Louis GC (1st)
Arithmestoise 6-3 Pokemon World Championships 2002 (12th)

~ RaNd0m the Professor ;D

From: Illinois...=\ | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Otaku

Member # 42359



posted July 27, 2003 05:44 PM      Profile for Otaku   Email Otaku    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Love how Jono didn't ask me what I play. [Wink] He assumed I used that because... he doesn't get to chat with me much, and probably forgot taht I favor Professor Oak's Research and Copycat, as I run many Trainers, so I have found that the cards Elm gets me sit in hand to long. Oh, and I run 3 Cleffa, 3 CC, 3 POR, and 3 Traeder usaully. It's amazing really... For some reason, by adding more of the cards I want and less draw power that will be dead (can't POR or CC twice a turn), I get what I want.

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Imakuni Rules!

You can reach me at Otakutron on AIM and nihon_game_otaku on Yahoo Messenger.

From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Prime
Member
Member # 102940



posted July 27, 2003 07:25 PM      Profile for Prime   Email Prime    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Dang Random, do you even see the outside? I guess that is what you get for being so good at the game. I could and would never subject myself to 70 games to test any deck against any deck. If if every match took 10 minutes, that would be like 2 and a half days straight if you playtested against 5 decks.

I play every saturday, some weekends off. Elm never helped in my case. I always used it when I had crap for hand. So like I would use copycat/elm/cleffa in the first few turns to get what I needed and then saved half of them for end use. But against people that would constantly get stage two's out second turn, I needed a faster deck. Something I didn't have to sit on and wait.

Now I play copycat/desert shaman/bill/elm now for drawing. I use 2 elm now. Copycat is the big thing early on now. Because everyone else plays elm, you use copycat to copy their huge hand and then some turns use shaman to couteract the elm. it totally turns elm into the worse card. They shuffle their hand into their deck and can't play any trainers then you shuffle the trainers back in on your turn and let them use the four cards they get next turn. Its so funny!

Anyways I am happy this thread hasn't turned out bad. I apologize for my harsh remarks. I was not feeling well the day/s I posted. I just realized that if everyone plays elm, I can just counter with shaman. So I mean, its like making a anti-sneasel deck in a totally sneasel zone.

Yeah, R/S had horrible trainers. There was few that I liked and even less that I could use. The pokemon were fine. But if Nintendo decides only to run their cards in modified, it will be super hard to change because we won't have much to work with.

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"Do not follow where the path may lead. Go instead where there is no path and leave a trail." ~ Ralph Waldo Emerson

From: Asheville, North Carolina | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
The Dark Llama
Member
Member # 75434



posted July 27, 2003 10:04 PM      Profile for The Dark Llama   Email The Dark Llama    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
lol, using nothig but Nintend ocards, it'll be Linoone and Prof. Birch everywhere...

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Best Decks
Kurai Tsuki no Kokoro
Dark Ampharos/Dark Espeon
31-7

Kage Ha!
Dark Scizor
8-0

Elm, Oak, Cleffa and Copycat are archetypes.

YGO Deck:
Yukai na Shi ni yotte Ryu
Pleasant Death by way of Dragon
25-8

My have/want list

One Sentence Add-On!

From: San Diego | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
scizorulz87
Member
Member # 147058



posted July 28, 2003 10:49 AM      Profile for scizorulz87   Email scizorulz87    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
The best way to get what you need out of a deck is to run it down. Elm just doesn't do this effectively. I mean, what do you do if you draw a whole hand of trainers? I just stick with Juggler, Bill's Maintenance, Lucky Stadium, and Bill himself. "Uh-oh, discarding cards bad, Oog scared." This is the attitude I see alot today about Juggler, Oak, and all that good stuff. In a full deck your chances for getting a particular card are 1/60, after drawing hand and placing prizes, it becomes 1/47, if your opponent draws a mulligan, it is lowered even more. On the first turn, Bill increases your chances to 1/45, followed by a Juggler 1/40. The smaller your deck, the more efficient it is. Most competitive decks will win before they deck themselves, so what is there to be afraid of? Saying you can't live without Elm is like saying your deck sucks, or isn't competitive enough to play in the big tourneys. Why was this game created? To inspire creativity, not to invoke monotony. If you can't do things differently, then you shouldn't do them at all. [NoNoNo]

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"Wielder of Wind's Power, place your hands upon this stone, and ye shall be bestowed with the power to see hidden truth's."
-Tablet Inscription

From: Rockford, Illinois "The Prairie State" (go Illini) | Registered: Jul 2003  |  IP: Logged


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