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Author
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Topic: Severe Procedural Error in 1-game matches
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted March 04, 2003 12:52 PM
The difference is that you have already upset the game to the point of it normally being a game loss. You have shuffled your cards into your deck. Totally changing the game. It is your mistake. If the result is that you just don't get a hand it is not fair to the opponent whose game has been disrupted. The swap is a fair deal in this situation. It puts you at a severe disadvantage. That is the intention.
As far as it being totally unrecoverable depends on how the game is going in the first place. If you were already up 2 prizes you are even now.
I have seen many games that were won by the person who had this penalty inforced on them.
The error can be resolved before the cards are shuffled into the deck. If a judge or player can catch it before that it is atotally different matter. Once that is done however it is beyond the point of being able to fix anything. There is no way to know what cards were in the hand and the person has already put those cards into the deck.
DMTM
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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BJJ763
Member # 158
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posted March 04, 2003 01:01 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
The error can be resolved before the cards are shuffled into the deck. If a judge or player can catch it before that it is atotally different matter. Once that is done however it is beyond the point of being able to fix anything. There is no way to know what cards were in the hand and the person has already put those cards into the deck.
This happened at the Boston SBZ, i was called over because someone had put their cards on top of their deck but did not shuffle. You could see cards not piled neatly onto the deck but i could not determine exactly which cards would have been in the hand and which belonged in the deck. I let person flip for the baby rule. Since it came up tails, i told the person to shuffle their deck but they could not draw cards. No prize swap.
Was this the right thing to do? Or was there a better way to resolve putting the cards on top of the deck?
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From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted March 04, 2003 01:47 PM
Sorry to say Brian but it was not. There is a better way to reslolve this.
Here is what steps should be taken.
1. See if you can get agreement by both players that he had put the cards on top of the deck and how many exactly he put there. If they both agree then go to step #2. There are subtle tricks you can use to keep people honest in this situation. You can ask the person that placed their cards what exact cards did they place? If they can tell you them and you can verify it then you can use this as evidence to reconstruct their hand. Even if they don't agree on putting the cards on the top of the deck but you can verify it based on hard evidence of what they had in their hand you are now able to skip to step #3.
2. Ask the player who put the cards there how many cards they had in their hand. Then ask the opponent if that is the case. If they do agree then go to step #3. Again if they have recall and you can confirm it you can move on.
3. Pick up that many cards and put them into their hand.
4. Give them a Caution for Improper procedure minor.
5. They may proceed with their turn. They can now flip for the Baby.
If they cannot agree on how many cards were discarded, and the recall of what is in their hand is not perfect. Or if they disagree on the cards being put there and you cannot verify it, then the Game loss penalty should be enforced.
It is very important that they recall exactly what cards were put there. It is key evidence for their version of the story and it proves that the game can be safely reconstructed saving them the Game Loss penalty.
I typed this up fast so if any of you out there see something I missed please feel free to say so. I might have missed some things that could help in this situation.
DMTM
[ March 04, 2003, 02:20 PM: Message edited by: DMTM ]
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted March 04, 2003 05:43 PM
quote:
Originally posted by DMTM:
Sorry to say Brian but it was not. There is a better way to reslolve this.
Here is what steps should be taken.
1. See if you can get agreement by both players that he had put the cards on top of the deck and how many exactly he put there. If they both agree then go to step #2. There are subtle tricks you can use to keep people honest in this situation. You can ask the person that placed their cards what exact cards did they place? If they can tell you them and you can verify it then you can use this as evidence to reconstruct their hand. Even if they don't agree on putting the cards on the top of the deck but you can verify it based on hard evidence of what they had in their hand you are now able to skip to step #3.
2. Ask the player who put the cards there how many cards they had in their hand. Then ask the opponent if that is the case. If they do agree then go to step #3. Again if they have recall and you can confirm it you can move on.
3. Pick up that many cards and put them into their hand.
4. Give them a Caution for Improper procedure minor.
5. They may proceed with their turn. They can now flip for the Baby.
If they cannot agree on how many cards were discarded, and the recall of what is in their hand is not perfect. Or if they disagree on the cards being put there and you cannot verify it, then the Game loss penalty should be enforced.
It is very important that they recall exactly what cards were put there. It is key evidence for their version of the story and it proves that the game can be safely reconstructed saving them the Game Loss penalty.
I typed this up fast so if any of you out there see something I missed please feel free to say so. I might have missed some things that could help in this situation.
DMTM
Sounds like a card trick.
"Your card is the Three of Spades"
"How did the Three of Spades get in my Pokemon deck!?!" ![[ROFL]](../tcg/graemlins/roflmao.gif)
OK, back to the serious posts... ![[teach]](../tcg/graemlins/teach.gif)
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"This kind of makes you miss the compendium..." - Martin Moreno
The Compendium: http://pkcompendium.hypermart.net
Registered: Feb 2001
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BJJ763
Member # 158
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posted March 04, 2003 08:02 PM
Thanks for the reply DMTM. I did try to get a confirmation on the number of cards put on top of the deck but the opponent didn't remember how many cards were put on top of the deck. I'll have to remember the "What was in your hand trick" if it happens again.
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"We are not purposely trying to mess with your minds." - DMTM
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Baton-wielding thug cop.
From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted March 04, 2003 08:31 PM
BJJ, I agree with DMTM in procedure, but not in principle on this one. Once you've been called over to make a ruling, as the judge, you've got to follow the proper guidelines and do as DMTM said.
However, if I was playing and my opponent forgot the baby-flip, personally, I'd give my opponent a break and let him do the baby flip. If heads, no harm, no foul. If tails, then I'd call the judge over to impose the penalty. But, that's just me. I believe in the after-the-fact baby-flip. Now, if I do the same thing (forget to flip) after I gave my opponent a break, then he might just return the favor. But if he didn't, oh well, that's the rules; just more incentive for me to beat him.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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bulbasnore
Member # 703
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posted March 04, 2003 10:57 PM
The interesting part of this for me as a judge, and let me see if I get this right:
Unrewindable procedural error = game loss.
In PKMN 1 match is a game, so the PKMN equivalent penalty (so as not to give a match loss for this) is a prize swap. OK.
Unplayable procedural error = match loss.
Here, the game can't go on for some reason, this results in a match loss to the offender.
This correspondence is pretty clear, the question is, what constitutes 'unplayable':
Two such 'unplayable' examples are: destroying your opponents deck or mixing your own deck & discard.
I can't think of any others. Anyone?
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Pokemon TCG is a game for all ages.
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From: Where you play a kid's game and never T8 in it! | Registered: Feb 2001
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BJJ763
Member # 158
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posted March 05, 2003 04:44 AM
Steve, if they don't call me over, they can decide how to handle the situation by themselves (within reason of course). If his opponent had not called me over but instead let him flip for the Baby rule and then take it from there, that's ok with me. But once i'm called over.....
Like i said i'm going to remember the "What was in your hand" trick. GLad i asked as now i have another way of resolving this if it ever happens again.
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Our trade list
Pokémon answers at the Compendium
"We are not purposely trying to mess with your minds." - DMTM
Indentifier of the Magby Rule.
Baton-wielding thug cop.
From: Warwick RI USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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SteveP
Member # 14743
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posted March 05, 2003 07:29 AM
yup, if there's any way possible to unwind, that's what should be done. For example, I once had a player insert his hand half-way into his deck when he realized that he forgot to flip. Those cards were easily distinguishable from his deck. So, it was easy to retrieve his exact hand.
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Proud member of Team PokéParents - we play Pokémon with our kids!
From: Colorado Springs, CO, USA | Registered: Apr 2001
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DMTM
Member # 10
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posted March 05, 2003 12:45 PM
Steve I play like you to a degree. I let people take things back. It is just more sporting in my opinion.
I do allow them to flip to see if they get a heads if I'm playing. If so I move on. If not then I call the judge. This is from a playing point of view.
But once a judge is called over he/she is obligated to rule. The judge cannot ignore the situation in the case of the baby flip because the opponent suddenly decides to let them flip. Once the judge is standing there they must follow through with the correct procedure and penalties.
From the UTR
13. Player Responsibilities.
Players are not permitted to waive penalties on behalf of their opponents. The judge must ensure that appropriate penalties, if any, are imposed.
DMTM
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Frodo_Baggins - "Like the guy said "Get out of the box""
From: Seattle, Wa, USA | Registered: Feb 2001
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Timmy Two Tone
Member # 106756
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posted March 12, 2003 08:17 AM
Great Topic, This really helps me to clarify what penalty to give. Thanks!
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33 and love Pokemon
From: Sandy OR | Registered: Sep 2002
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