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Author
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Topic: AQ Jumpluff's Pokebody
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Beedrill30
Member # 62898
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posted January 31, 2003 01:09 PM
Question on AQ Jumpluff, if I have a Murkrow with 1 Darkness and I attack an active AQ Jumpluff with 10 damage, would the effect of Feint Attack (ignore Pokemon Powers of the Defending Pokemon) supercede Jumpluff's Pokebody by not allowing a flip to prevent damage? Also, if Jumpluff were on the bench, same question.
[ January 31, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: Beedrill30 ]
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From: New Jersey | Registered: Feb 2002
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Dugtrio1951
Member # 1237
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posted January 31, 2003 01:34 PM
Wow, that's a heck of a question. This is my best attempt at an answer:
To start, if Jumpluff is on the Bench and Murkrow Feint Attacks it, then yes you flip for Fluff. If Jumpluff is Active, however...
According to the Compendium, no game effect can ever reduce the damage Feint Attack does to the Defending Pokémon. However, Jumpluff's PokéBody doesn't say that it's reducing the damage, it's "preventing all effects of that attack".
Now, in the rulebook, (I'm using version 4 BTW) under the How Do You Figure Out the Damage? section, there are three steps relevant to our problem. Step A says to start with base damage, which in Murkrow's case is 20. Jump down to Step H, which says, "Apply any relevant effects resulting from the Defending Pokémon's ... Pokémon Powers". So at this point we would flip for Fluff, since an attack is being made on Jumpluff. Then step J says, "Now that damage has been done, if the attack does anything other than damage, do all of that." I interpret that as meaning the "This attack's damage isn't affected by..." part of Murkrow's attack. But if we flipped for Fluff and got heads back on Step H, the attack would have been prevented and, hence, Feint Attack's effects would not be applied.
In short, I'd say yes, you do flip for Fluff if Jumpluff is Active (or Benched) when Murkrow attempts to Feint Attack it. Anyone who sees a flaw in my reasoning here, (PokePop? ![[Razz]](tongue.gif) ) please correct me.
And if I'm right, then Jumpluff rules all the more!
-Dugtrio
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From: Northeast Ohio, baby! | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted January 31, 2003 02:12 PM
I need to see the exact wording of the Power before I say one way or the other. Can anyone give that... exactly(!)?
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Nu Gundam
Member # 1779
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posted January 31, 2003 02:19 PM
*Looks through my binder, and found the card*
PokeBody: Fluff
During your opponent's turn, if Jumpluff would be damaged or affected by an opponent's attack and it already has at least 1 damage counter on it, flip a coin. If heads, prevent all effects of that attack (including damage).
Well, the text implies Fluff can affect damage dealt to Jumpluff by reducing it to 0. So Feint Attack SHOULD be able to bypass Fluff because the PokeBody prevents all damage being dealt to Jumpluff (Doesn't make much sense does it?). ![[Blush]](graemlins/blush.gif)
PS. Why not check Haunter's Pokemon Power Transperancy? I believe the wording is pretty much the same. We might be able to solve this problem by referencing... (only without having at least 1 damage counter on condition)
[ January 31, 2003, 02:21 PM: Message edited by: Nu Gundam ]
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Dugtrio1951
Member # 1237
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posted January 31, 2003 02:24 PM
PokéBody Fluff
During your opponent's turn, if Jumpluff would be damaged or affected by an opponent's attack and it already has at least 1 damage counter on it, flip a coin. If heads, prevent all effects of that attack (including damage).
Copied word for word...
[EDIT] Oh look, Nu Gundam got it before me. =P
I just checked up on Transparency. It says that Swift, which has been compared to Feint Attack elsewhere in the Compendium, does NOT go through Transparency. Specific wording:
"SWIFT does NOT prevent anything that prevents the attack from actually occuring however such as Smokescreen and Transparency."
Transparency's wording, as of LC:
Pokémon Power: Transparency
Whenever an attack does anything to Haunter, flip a coin. If heads, prevent all effects of that attack, including damage, done to Haunter. This power stops working while Haunter is affected by a Special Condition.
I seriously think Fluff steps in before Feint Attack can do anything...
-Dugtrio
[ January 31, 2003, 02:31 PM: Message edited by: Dugtrio1951 ]
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From: Northeast Ohio, baby! | Registered: Feb 2001
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PojosamaWannabe
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Member # 74186
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posted February 01, 2003 08:50 AM
Can anyone confirm this ruling?
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From: Central New Jersey | Registered: Mar 2002
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted February 01, 2003 11:37 AM
As near as I can tell, that's a bad ruling.
quote:
Q. Does Misty's Staryu's Swift hit through Scrunch? Transparency? How about Barrier?
A. It hits through ALL Pokémon Powers or attack effects or Weakness or Resistance. (August 17, 2000 WotC Chat Q69)
Is the correct ruling. Only effects the actually stop the attack from occouring can stop swift. Transparency does not do that.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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MrGrass
Member # 166
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posted February 01, 2003 09:00 PM
I agree that this is a bad ruling. Transparency should never have been sighted in the Swift/Feint Attack clarification. Swift and Feint Attack can only be blocked by effects that prevent the attack from happening (ie Baby Rule, Smokescreen, Confusion). Transparency and Fluff do not prevent attacks from occuring, they prevent the result of the attacks. Because of this, Feint Attack and Swift should still do damage.
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Onix95
Member # 103241
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posted February 01, 2003 09:50 PM
Actually, Smokescreen doesn't stop the attack, it just says that the "attack does nothing". Though I would have to agree that Transparency and Fluff shouldn't prevent the attack, but it could go either way, since they say prevent ALL effects of the attack, which might be their reason for saying it stops Feint Attack and Switch. *asks for a reciept for $.02*
From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002
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Freddy K
Member # 24380
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posted February 01, 2003 10:18 PM
quote:
Originally posted by Beedrill30:
Question on AQ Jumpluff, if I have a Murkrow with 1 Darkness and I attack an active AQ Jumpluff with 10 damage, would the effect of Feint Attack (ignore Pokemon Powers of the Defending Pokemon) supercede Jumpluff's Pokebody by not allowing a flip to prevent damage? Also, if Jumpluff were on the bench, same question.
It'll cut through the power when active, and he/she will have to flip when on the bench.
All effects mean all effects. The Pokébody is a power, which you have to ignore regardless of what stage the power kicks in before the damage is done.
-fK
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From: Slough, England UK | Registered: May 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted February 01, 2003 10:38 PM
Now, if it said, "prevent that attack" or "prevents the attack from happening", then it would stop it. Since it only prevents the effects of the attack, Feint Attack gets through it without having to worry about the flip.
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Gyarados vision
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Member # 109819
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posted February 02, 2003 03:53 AM
For your convenience,I put the card scans of AQ Jumpluff from Pokeschool.
To Pokeschool staff:sorry I have to do it faster for the convinience of this board.Your picture is greatly apppreciated to help us.
For clarification,an active Jumpluff would not prevent Feint Attack that attack a bench Pokemon.If Jumpluff is on the bench & Feint Attack wants to attack Jumpluff,the foe also no need to flip.
If all you guys are not sure,maybe we'll bring it up to the next chat.
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From: Cheras,Kuala Lumpur,Malaysia | Registered: Oct 2002
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SGHErika72
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Member # 45232
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posted February 02, 2003 08:34 AM
I do not understand this. I agree with Dugtrio1951. I would think that you still get to flip. From this forum on July 28, I asked: quote:
..."I attack Lilly Pad Mew with Sabrina's Gengar Dark Wave.
"Dark Wave: All Pokemon Powers stop working until the end of your opponent's next turn" and does 20 damage.
Lilly Pad Mew's Pokemon Power: "Prevent all effects of attacks, including damage, done to Mew from an Evolved Pokemon."
My opponet says that Mew's power is on as the attack starts and therefore is prevented. I tell him that once Sabrina's Gengar's attack begins, Mew's PP gets shut down
I believe I am right, but wanted to check. ..."
The answer I got...
quote:
..."Unfortunately (for you), your opponent was correct. Here is an entry from the Compendium:
quote:
Q. If my Magby (or Sabrina's Gengar using Dark Wave) attacks a fossil Haunter does the opponent get to flip for Transparency or does the effect of the attack only start at the end of my turn?
A. Haunter still gets to flip, because Sputter doesn't take effect until the very end of the attack. (May 24, 2001 WotC Chat, Q215)" ...
The wording of Sabrina's Gengar and Murkrow's attacks are slightly different, but I believe their intent and effects should be the same!
Also from this same thread...
quote:
Another thing to consider. Would it not be true that the attack wouldn't shut down mew's power at all? Mew's power says to "Prevent all effects of attacks...done to Mew from an Evolved Pokemon." and I would think that the shutting off of powers in this case is an effect of an attack, correct? So my thought is that it would effect all pokemon except mew.
Hmmm...lets compare...
Feint attack says "...This attack isn't affected by Weakness, resistence, Pokemon Powers or any other effects on the Defending Pokemon"
Jumpluff's Pokebody"...prevent all effects of that attack."
Sabrina's Gengar attack says "..."All Pokemon Powers stop working until the end of your opponent's next turn" and does 20 damage."
"Lilly Pad Mew's PP "Prevent all effects of attacks, including damage..."
I ask: how can Murkrow damage Jumpluff and Sabrina's Gengar not damage Lilly Pad Mew, (or still allow fossil Haunter to flip for that matter)? ![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Wow. The wording/intrepretation is relly getting confusing!
...SGHErika heads to medicine cabinet for some asprin...
From: Columbia, Maryland | Registered: Sep 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted February 02, 2003 11:50 AM
That's not a slight difference in wording. That is a tremendous difference in wording.
Feint attack has a direction about how to caluclate the damage while S's Gengar places an effect that will last over the next turn.
Very, very different.
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted February 02, 2003 07:59 PM
I believe there is basic wording different between Haunter and Jumpluff.
For Haunter's Transparecy, it say "prevent ... to Haunter'
For Jumpluff, it only say "prevent ...". It do not specify prevent to whom. So it will prevent all effect to everyone. For example, Blaine Rapidash's Stamp. it could damage both Active and bench. If the Jumpluff flip is head, it will prevent all effect including damage to all pokemon. I believe it is equvilance to "do nothing".
If correct on both the above 1. prevent effect to everyone 2. equal to do nothing, Jumpluff could prevent the Feint Attack like Smokescreen.
I am pretty confidence on the #1 unless WotC rule this on "intend" again (very likely). But I am not sure the #2.
I would say, we need the final rule from WotC in the Chat.
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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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Big_Pappa_Poke
Member # 3495
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posted February 02, 2003 10:41 PM
I know this much; if there is no ruling from WotC before SBZ, I will rule EXACTLY by the steps of damage calculation WotC has given us. If that means Jumpluff's power kicks in before the effect of the attack, it WILL prevent the effect.
There is no stack rule in Pokemon, though at times there seems like there is. The effect of the attack doesn't go on the stack and trump the power if the power comes first in damage calculation.
There is also no "intent". that is the second time tonight I've run into someone saying some power or attack was "intended" to be looked at in a certain way. If it isn't worded exactly a certain way or it isn't errattaed, it doesn't work that way in a DCI event.
Yes, this needs a ruling, and hopefully, we will get one before SBZ.
[ February 03, 2003, 08:04 AM: Message edited by: Big_Pappa_Poke ]
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Dugtrio1951
Member # 1237
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posted February 03, 2003 05:58 PM
DOMCGI brings up a VERY good point. Transparency, the Power we've been using as a benchmark for Fluff, does say to prevent effects done to Haunter. So if something used Spark against a Benched Haunter and Haunter flipped heads, only the damage being done to Haunter would be prevented. All damage (and other effects, if any) being done to the Defending Pokémon would go through because Haunter is only blocking the part of the attack that affects Haunter, not anyone else.
However... Jumpluff says "prevent all effects of that attack." Period. All effects done by that attack are prevented. No mention of a target being blocked for, such as Jumpluff itself. So, one can conclude that if a Jumpluff were targeted with a Spark-like attack and Fluff flipped heads, Spark would do nothing to neither Jumpluff nor the Defending Pokémon.
As for Jumpluff being Active against a Murkrow, I still think the best evidence of Fluff kicking in before Feint Attack comes from the rulebook. Fluff can definately be considered a "relevant Pokémon Power," (a la Step G in the ver. 9 rulebook,) which is figured before Step I. Step I says that "if the attack does anything other than damage, do all of that." And a case can be made that Murkrow's text "This attack's damage isn't affected by Weakness, Resistance, Pokémon Powers, or any other effects on the Defending Pokémon" is an effect of Feint Attack. After all, isn't any additional text besides an attack's basic damage (and requirements such as discarding Energy) an effect of that attack?
These questions definately need to be brought up this Thursday, but I feel very strongly that Fluff steps in before Murkrow's Feint Attack does anything.
[EDIT] MrGrass, there are a few statements in your arguement that I have done research on and I'd like to refute. =) Others probably feel the same way you do, so I'm just using you as an example for the things you typed.
quote:
Originally posted by MrGrass:
Swift and Feint Attack can only be blocked by effects that prevent the attack from happening (ie Baby Rule, Smokescreen, Confusion).
The Baby Rule, yes, stops an attack from ever occuring and automatically ends the opponent's turn. Smokescreen states, "If tails, that attack does nothing." So the attack still occurs, it just goes from doing something to doing nothing. Confusion states, according to the Version 9 rulebook, "...but on tails your Pokémon attacks itself with an attack that does 20 damage. (If your Pokémon has Weakness or Resistance to its own type, or if there's some other effect that would alter the attack, apply these things as usual.)" So an attack does occur with Confusion, it just occurs for 20 damage to the attacking Pokémon instead of doing whatever else it was supposed to do.
I'd also like to point out that the rulebook says to apply any other effects that would alter the attack as usual. Murkrow's text "This attack's damage isn't affected by..." etc. would alter an attack, (make it never be blocked by a normal effect,) and thus it can be construed that if Murkrow had some hypothetical effect on it that would block Confusion damage, Feint Attack's last sentence would make the damage still go through. In addition, I'd like to note that, by construing this fact, one must admit that the last sentence of Feint Attack is an "effect". "...if there's some other effect that would alter the attack..."
quote:
Originally posted by MrGrass:
Transparency and Fluff do not prevent attacks from occuring, they prevent the result of the attacks.
From the Compendium:
"SWIFT does NOT prevent anything that prevents the attack from actually occurring however like Smokescreen or Transparency."
That sentence concedes that Transparency does, in fact, prevent an attack from occuring. So if we were to compare that part of Transparency's effect with Fluff's, Fluff obviously prevents attacks as well.
One last statement, this one a bit more superfluous. Webster's New World Dictionary (1974 edition) defines the verb "prevent" as:
1. to stop or keep from doing something. 2. to keep from happening; make impossible by prior action; hinder.
So Fluff keeps all effects, including damage, from happening. Fluff stops all effects, including damage, from doing something. Perhaps exchanging the word "prevent" for some synonyms can make this clear.
-Dugtrio
[ February 03, 2003, 06:49 PM: Message edited by: Dugtrio1951 ]
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MrGrass
Member # 166
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posted February 03, 2003 07:09 PM
The problem is Transparency does not prevent the attack. It only prevents effects done to Haunter. Other effects of the attack, like card drawing or damage to other pokemon, still happen.
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From: A WOTC Store in Pennsylvania | Registered: Feb 2001
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PokePop
Member # 8
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posted February 03, 2003 07:13 PM
As Yoshi points out above, the MTs reversed themselves on Transparancy stopping Swift-like attacks.
Again, I say if Jumpluff's power said "the attack does nothing" or "the attack is prevented", then it would stop Feint Attack.
It does not say that, though.
But, I agree, a ruling is needed.
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Dugtrio1951
Member # 1237
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posted February 03, 2003 07:17 PM
quote:
Originally posted by MrGrass:
The problem is Transparency does not prevent the attack. It only prevents effects done to Haunter. Other effects of the attack, like card drawing or damage to other pokemon, still happen.
Well the sentence from the Compendium actually does state that Transparency prevents an attack from occuring. But it is true that Haunter only prevents effects done to Haunter. However, this is not the case for Jumpluff, as Fluff does not state a target. It simply says "prevent all effects of attacks (including damage)." So that would mean ALL effects are prevented, to anything in play or out.
[stream of consciousness mode ON] Now the reason Eeeeeeek isn't blocked by Fluff is because Fluff is triggered by something actually affecting Jumpluff. Since Eeeeeeek doesn't do anything to Jumpluff, it doesn't trigger Fluff. But if Fluff IS triggered, and it gets heads, ALL effects of an attack (whether to Jumpluff or otherwise) are prevented. It's kinda backwards, upon reflection, but that's the way it's worded.
-Dugtrio
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Onix95
Member # 103241
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posted February 03, 2003 07:48 PM
can I switch sides? ![[Angel]](graemlins/angel.gif)
reading what you people have said, I would have to say that Transparency and Fluff would stop Feint Attack, for the reasons you have stated.
Since this is still a talk about Jumpluff's Power, I have another question; If an opponent uses Self Destruct or any other attack that would do self inflicting damage or effects (careless tackle, takedown, foul odor, rapid spin, etc.), would Fluff prevent the whole attack, damage to your pokemon, effects on your pokemon, and the same for your opponent?
From: Honolulu, Hawaii | Registered: Aug 2002
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DOMCGI
Member # 20344
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posted February 04, 2003 07:51 AM
First of all, the Transparency rule is an old rule. I remember someone (MT?) say in this forum that the Transparency rule are not correct in the Compendium and will bring this to the Chat, bUT it never happen.
I would say the Transparency rule is questionable and should not be used in this Jumpluff argument.
In my last post, I already say that my argument only valid if and only if both the following correct: 1. Jumpluff prevent all effect and damage to all pokemon. 2. "prevent all effect and damage to all pokemon" equal to "do nothing".
I am pretty sure "1" is correct if base on the text of the Power. But if WotC rule on "Intend", the result could be anything. "2" require WotC to confirm.
So a final word, we have to wait for the official rule.
I just support Jumpluff will prevent Feint Attack.
To Onix95, if my "1" is correct, it will affect all pokemon, includING oppponent's pokemon. So Jumpluff will save all the pokemons from Self Destruct.
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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001
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yoshi1001
Member # 825
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posted February 04, 2003 08:01 AM
quote:
First of all, the Transparency rule is an old rule. I remember someone (MT?) say in this forum that the Transparency rule are not correct in the Compendium and will bring this to the Chat, bUT it never happen.
The mistake in the compendium I believe refers to this ruling:
quote:
Q. If a Pokémon gets a heads on Agility, then the other pokemon uses Agility, is it still vulnerable even if it flips heads (in other words, can agility be prevented by another agility as an effect of an attack)?
A. Sure. The CURRENT Rule is that Agility prevents effects of attacks that are being done against the Pokemon with Agility. There is no targeting in that case. (Nov 29, 2001 WotC Chat, Q24 & Q37)
Take a stab at who came up with this one. ![[Wink]](wink.gif) It's out of date-Agility only prevents effects of attacks done to the agile pokemon. That's the bad rule that I know of.
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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001
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Darkask2
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Member # 30668
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posted February 04, 2003 12:39 PM
quote:
From the Compendium:
"SWIFT does NOT prevent anything that prevents the attack from actually occurring however like Smokescreen or Transparency."
That sentence concedes that Transparency does, in fact, prevent an attack from occuring. So if we were to compare that part of Transparency's effect with Fluff's, Fluff obviously prevents attacks as well.
This was true, but I believe it was superseded by this ruling from 2002:
quote:
Q. Just to confirm, Umbreon's "Feint Attack" is unaffected by Lily Pad Mew's "Neutral Shield", right?
A. RIGHT! [NOTE: But only when Lily Pad Mew is in the active slot.] Correct. (Dec 12, 2002 WotC Chat, Q88)
Before I go any further, here is the text for Transparancy and Neutral Shield:
From Pojo.com
Fossil Haunter:
Transparency" Whenever an attack does anything to Haunter, flip a coin. If heads, prevent all effects of that attack, including damage, done to Haunter. This power stops working while Haunter is Asleep.
And Promo Mew, from Pokeschool.com
Mew:
Pokemon Power: Neutral Shield
Prevent all effects of attacks, including damage, done to Mew by Evolved Pokemon. You can't use this power if Mew is Asleep, Confused, or Paralyzed.
As you can see, the main part of the text, the prevent all damage and effects from attacks part, is the same, just the triggers for the powers are different. Therefore, I think that the Feint Attack ruling for Mew would also effect the older Transparancy ruling, which would, by your logic, also carry over to the Fluff ruling. But I do agree that a chat ruling is needed.
From: Altamont NY | Registered: Jul 2001
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LizardOTC
Member # 124
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posted February 04, 2003 02:12 PM
I agree that we need a ruling. However, I think it is a safe bet that Jumpluff will take Feint Attack damage.
Fluff reads: quote:
During your opponent's turn, if Jumpluff would be damaged or affected by an opponent's attack and it already has at least 1 damage counter on it, flip a coin. If heads, prevent all effects of that attack (including damage).
According to the wording of Fluff, it only activates when Jumpluff would be damaged. The attack must occur (be in progress) for damage to be done. So, clearly, the attack is in progress when Fluff kicks in.
The text of Feint attack says that its damage can not be affected by Pokémon Powers. Therefore, Fluff can not affect the damage done in this case.
In any event, a clear ruling is needed before the SBZ date!
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From: The Vast Midwestern Waste | Registered: Feb 2001
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