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Author Topic: Why is it so bad to Play multiple....
Purple_Nurple
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Member # 133119



posted March 20, 2003 08:54 AM      Profile for Purple_Nurple      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Stage 2 Pokemon?? I have senn several posts where people say that playing two Stage 2 pokemon is bad and can't be pulled off...I don't understand why this is "true".

I think that with the card drawing in today's game, multiple Stage 2s would be easier to pull off. Especiall with some Stage 2s having colorless heavy attacks.

Let's look at the cards available to help get out those basics and evolutions:
Masterball, Pokemon Breeder Fields, Pokemon Trader, Pokemon Breeder, Dual Ball, Professor Elm's Training Method, The Boss's Way, Forest Guardian, Pokemon Fan Club, Challenge, Pokemon March, Fossil Egg, and Dark Dragonair. I am sure there may be more, but these are off the top of my head.

With all of these available to use in Modified, could someoone point out to me why it is so bad to use multiple Stage 2s?

These are in additions to standard "draw" cards.

And now, with Crystal energy, I think multi color multi Stage decks are even stronger and can be pulled off more frequently than before.

Please, make all comments with supportive discussion. Thanks

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yoshi1001

Member # 825



posted March 20, 2003 09:13 AM      Profile for yoshi1001   Email yoshi1001    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
It takes up a lot of space to do so in ypur deck. I did it back in the Rocket-On days, and it was no small feat.

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From: Janesville, Wisconsin | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
IPGeek21

Member # 184



posted March 20, 2003 09:36 AM      Profile for IPGeek21   Email IPGeek21    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Definitely NOT recommended.

I was made a believer when my bro pulled of 2 stage 2's in unlimited and built a very competitive deck; in a metagame of HAYMAKERS it raised eyebrows (genesis).

NOW in this modified... it is NOT impossible but there should be some synergy between the pokemon you choose for the combo to work.

JUST test to make sure it can stand a chance against stage 1 decks, and single stage 2 decks.

Goodluck... in our SBZ one multi-stage 2 deck won.

[ March 20, 2003, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: IPGeek21 ]

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From: The here, BUT WHERE shall we go? | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Otaku

Member # 42359



posted March 20, 2003 11:13 AM      Profile for Otaku   Email Otaku    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
For a lot of us, it's not so much a bad thing as a complicated thing. It is feasible, but complicated. ANother thing is that, as stated elsewhere, the two Stage Twos should compliment eachother. That is rarer than it sounds. More often, running two Stage Ones or a Stage One and a Stage Two works best. For Example, Dark Ursaring/Gengar, Tail Smash Charizard/Dodrio, Exp Butterfree/Promo Scizor all compliment eachother. For Stage 2s, it can be less common. Finally, one word: Pichu. It has ruined many of my own multi-Stage Two decks.

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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
mysterioustrainer

Member # 1049



posted March 20, 2003 01:15 PM      Profile for mysterioustrainer   Email mysterioustrainer    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Yes multiple stage 2 pokemon is difficult. I rarely build a deck that contains more than 2 3-stage evo chains. Usually my decks contain

4 Basic
3 Stage 1
2 Stage 2
4 Basic
3 Stage 1
3 Basic/Baby
3 Basic/Baby
Pokemon: 22

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From: Wherever the adventure takes me! | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Orange Soda
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posted March 20, 2003 01:58 PM      Profile for Orange Soda   Email Orange Soda    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
I think multiple Stage 2's should be easier if one of them is the Dark Dragonite line. Once you get your Dark Dragonair in play, use it's power to pull Dark Dragonite out of your deck. Next turn, use the power again to get another Dark Dragonair. Then evolve to Dark Dragonite, and make sure that one of the basics that get put to the bench is a Dratini. Then just evolve it do Dark Dragonair next turn, and you have a Pokemon that lets you search for an Evolution each turn, and a fairly hefty Dark Dragonite to attack with (although the attack requires a coin flip...), or just devolve it, and you have two evolution searchers.

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From: University of Missouri-Rolla | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
GreatFox

Member # 77642



posted March 20, 2003 02:00 PM      Profile for GreatFox   Email GreatFox    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Well... it all depends on how you beuild your deck. I;ve built plenty of multiple stage 2 Pokémon decks and they have always, for the most part, worked out just fine.

I've been running a Golem/Tyranitar deck for a while and it has two of each and its worked just fine. Right now, I'm working on a Tsunami 'Gatr/Poli deck and it too has more than just one of each.

As long as you build it well, it can work.

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From: Los Angeles, California | Registered: Apr 2002  |  IP: Logged
jesschow12

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posted March 20, 2003 05:23 PM      Profile for jesschow12   Email jesschow12    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
yup it is bad for 2 stage 2 evolution,but in my place there are ppl playing venusaur + charizard deck and they play well duh..

i still think it is bad cause

4 charmander
4 chameleon
4 charizard
4 bulba
4 ivy
4 venusaur

total 24 pkmn not even a baby!

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From: singapore | Registered: Mar 2002  |  IP: Logged
Extreme Espeon
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posted March 20, 2003 06:46 PM      Profile for Extreme Espeon      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
2 Stage 2s is kind of tough! With Breeder it is a little more doable but still...... No offense Purple Nurple, but (Besides back during my inexperienced day when I thought Base Charizard was unbeatable) the only way I could see 2 Stage 2s out would be if they were the same pokemon but different versions (Venusaur Energy Trans and Venusaur Harvest Bounty, which by the way works pretty well with Exeguttor with some help form pokecenter) Maybe one of these days there will be a card to help out getting 2 Stage 2s (even though there are already plenty, it's just getting them all in your hand that makes it tough)

Man, if it weren't for the fact that it is 9:30 and my parents make me go to bed I would gladly stay up and write a rant or something. I'll see you all later!

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Purple_Nurple
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Member # 133119



posted March 21, 2003 06:44 AM      Profile for Purple_Nurple      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Well, so far it seems that more people play multi- stage 2 decks than I had originally thought. I agree that the Pokemon Have to compliment each other or have somewhat colorless attacks, Heres is an idea that I was considering....keep in mind that i am not trying to get all of the stage 2s out...it is to metagame the competition...here is the idea

3 Bulbasaur, 1 Ivysaur, 3 Venusaur (2LC, 1 Ex)(Main Line)
2 Charmander, 1 Charmeleon, 2 Charizard (LC)
2 Squirtle, 1 Wartortle, 2 Blastoise (Ex none PP)
So that is 17 and can all use Grass energy. I was considering using Chansey or the Promo Snorlax as a high HP Basic to gets this going. So say 20 Pokemon.

So do you think this would work?? Max out on Trader, Breeder, 3 Pro. Elm's Training, 3 Fan Club,3 Elm, Copycat, Pokemon Center, 3 Town Volunteers. 28 Trainers

that leaves 12 Energy....

So what do oyu think....would it work or not...

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KYDAD

Member # 30575


posted March 21, 2003 07:04 AM      Profile for KYDAD   Email KYDAD    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
My daughter plays a NR Kingdra/AQ Jumpluff deck. It does pretty well. Jumpluff can attack with a single Grass energy, and Kingdra attacks with a single colorless. What makes this good is that it only takes about 11-12 energy to make it flow.

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From: Crestwood, KY, US | Registered: Jul 2001  |  IP: Logged
DOMCGI

Member # 20344



posted March 21, 2003 07:15 AM      Profile for DOMCGI      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
There are 2 limitation.

1. There is only 60 cards in a deck
If using Breeder, the minimum number of card per Stage 2 Evolution line is: 3 Basic, 1 Stage-1, and 3 Stage-2. It take at least 7 cards. If there is 2 lines, it is 14 Pokemon cards. If there are 3 lines, it is 21 Pokemon card. You should at least add 3 Cleffa for card drawing. So the total is 24 Pokemon cards. Stage 2 Pokemon also require more energy to attack. I will put 20 energy cards. It let only 16 cards for trainer, and 4 should be Breeder. It is not impossible, but difficult to balance the Pokemon/Trainer/Energy for a 3 line Stage-2 deck.

2. You only can have 1 Active and 5 Bench pokemon in-play at a time.
During the game, you will keep at least 1 Cleffa in play for free retreater. If each evolution has 1 Pokemon in play, there will be 4 Pokemon and only 2 slots left. Also, you will want to have another Pokemon for spare. All the slots are easily fill up. It is not impossible, but require some skill to play the deck correctly.

The most evolution line I use is my EX Arbok/Vileplume/Butterfree deck.
It has:
3 Oddish
1 Gloom
3 Vileplume
3 Ekans
3 Arbok
2 Caterpie
1 Metapod
2 Butterfree
3 Cleffa
Total 21 Pokemon.

Since most the attack are only require 2 energies, this deck only has 14 energies.

This deck is not balance yet.
While playing this deck, I always have difficulty to bring out Butterfree on time. I will like to add 1 Caterpie and 1 Butterfree, but there is no room. Also, I am always short of energy. This deck is just for fun.

In design, I would like to bring out 2 Arbok, 2 Vileplume, 1 Butterfree, and 1 Cleffa.

Difficult, but not impossible.

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From: Toronto, Canada | Registered: May 2001  |  IP: Logged
old man

Member # 28


posted March 21, 2003 07:56 AM      Profile for old man   Email old man    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
2 Stage 2's are tricky but can be done.

Time to tell a story.........

I remember this last year when Gat'r was the hot thing. There wasn't much that could defeat it on a consistent basis. About the best thing to use at that time against it was Crobat with support from something else, maybe Dark Muk.

Then when LC was released that changed for me, or my son to be more accurate. I really don't remember previously making any other tournament worthy deck with 2 stage 2's, but after trying the deck I was convinced it would win the tournament, especially in a Gat'r environment.

If you haven't figured it out yet, I'm talking about Venusaur with Pokemon Center. It is a very good deck in and of itself but add in Crobat & the Gat'r's don't really stand a chance.

My son took the deck to a Challenge series & did win the event & that's how we got to Seattle.

End story time.

What I'm trying to say, like others here have done, is you've got to find the combo's that work well together. IMHO most of the time a single "color" of main energy works best, sometimes 2. If you go with 2 or 3 then you may not draw the right one when you need it the most. The same can be said with the 3 Stage 2's. What if you needed that 'Zard to win the game but you draw a Blastoise instead?

When I make a new deck, after I choose my main "color", a lot of times I find myself limiting my 2nd "color" to a colorless evolution in order not to have too many different energy types out. That has started to become less & less now though since more & more of the newer Pokemon have a colorless attack, or an attack based on the # of energy attached.

I hope in all this rambling I've helped.

[ March 21, 2003, 07:58 AM: Message edited by: old man ]

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From: Del City, OK, USA | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Purple_Nurple
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Member # 133119



posted March 21, 2003 08:19 AM      Profile for Purple_Nurple      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Well, thanks for all of the input. The idea is to not use all three Stage 2s, but instead use 2 dependent on what type of deck I am going aginst. The Blastoise is #36 from Ex. and uses 3 Colorless energy for 40x 2 flips. I can use him against fire types and some new Fighting types. The Zard is of course just power. Nothing is resistant to fire right now and nothing can really take 120 damage and make it (I know there are those that can in that weird instance) and using the dual Venu line just helps with the VenuCenter idea and getting the Energy out. granted this deck woiuld take some skill and not for the faint of heart, but could it be done consistently. Thanks again for the help to everyone...think about it and then give your responses...thanks again for the criticism and open honest dialogue. That is why I am a Poke Nut and Love this game!!! The COMMUNITY!!!

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themcster

Member # 1207


posted March 22, 2003 12:01 AM      Profile for themcster   Email themcster    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
don't laugh (!)

but i made a deck with LOADS of evo in...and worked REALLY well!

lets see... was something likehis:

2 x dratini
2 x dark dragonair
2 bulbasaur
2 ivysaur
1 venusaur (LC)
1 venusaur (exp)
2 oddish
2 gloom
1 vileplume (exp)
1 bellossom (aqua)
2 chikorita
2 bayleef
1 meganium (genesis)
1 meganium holo (exp)
2 cleffa

the trainers were like:

4 trader
3 breeder
4 pokemon center
4 challenge etc...

was kinda cool! grass energy run AMOK!

pichu and muk destoyed me though! [Big Grin]

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From: horsham, west sussex. england | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
TrEkIeV

Member # 3433


posted March 22, 2003 03:37 AM      Profile for TrEkIeV   Email TrEkIeV    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
take my word for it, it wont work! having more that one stage two line in your deck is like an automatic loss! don't try it at home! for reals dude, i tried it before and it blew up in my face! there is no way a deck with two stage two cards in it can win!

the above was all meant to be a joke. it CAN be done, and it was! i went undefeated in the los angeles super battlezone with a deck that had 2 different stage 2 and another line of a stage 1. If you want to do it, then do it, dont let anything stand in your way, it makes the environment a whole lot funnier for everyone.

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From: Los Angeles, California | Registered: Mar 2001  |  IP: Logged
Raymond Lalic
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Member # 115882



posted March 22, 2003 03:56 AM      Profile for Raymond Lalic   Email Raymond Lalic    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Compatability is the strategy on playing more than one stage2 pokemon. Trainer cards and even energy cards should be in sync with them. [Roll Eyes]

Compatability also goes with their attacks and pokemon powers. Putting two or more stage2s can really lessen space in your deck. That is why it is suggestive to also look on their attack costs and how they will get along.

But for the recored I would advise up to 2 stage2 pokemon. The rest, well......BABIES!!! [Devilish]

[ March 22, 2003, 03:58 AM: Message edited by: Raymond Lalic ]

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From: Manila, Philippines | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dark Pinsir
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posted March 22, 2003 12:50 PM      Profile for Dark Pinsir   Email Dark Pinsir    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Wee!, with my PC up and running (again) I'll answer this:

I think that multiple stage 2s are really bad, but just look at my winner deck (I won 60% of my matches with it):

3 Dratini (TR)
2 Dark Dragonair
1 Ghastly (Fossil)
1 Haunter (Fossil)
1 Gengar (Fosil)
1 Abra (Base)
1 Kadabra (Base)
1 Alakazam (Base)
2 Mr. Mime (Jungle)

that was really dumb!, but I always seemed to get Gengar and 'kazam in my deck, and I always ran Dark Dragonair on turn 3!... but I think that I was really lucky not to get those cards in my prizes. and if you are wondering what trainers it had, I had oaks and pkmn traders in it, but most of the cards where singles!... LOL, my noob days... [Roll Eyes]

Well, but I think that unless the stage 2's don't use much NRG (like AQ 'pluff, NR kingdra) the deck may run well, but if the cards are, say, AQ Feral/Dark 'stoise the deck would run slow because of the NRG requirements for those cards' attacks.
My 2 cents...

[ March 22, 2003, 12:50 PM: Message edited by: Dark Pinsir ]

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From: Capital Federal, Buenos Aires, Argentina | Registered: Jun 2001  |  IP: Logged
dkates
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Member # 113463



posted March 24, 2003 05:30 PM      Profile for dkates      Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Basically, like Dark Pinsir said, it is difficult to build a good deck with multiple Stage 2's. I've done it a few times, though. If you have your heart set on it, here are a few tips:
1. Try going 3-2-1 on each line. You may not get out any particular Stage 2 often, but you can fit 2 sets and a few support Pokemon, or 3 Stage 2 sets, in the 20-23 spaces most people use for Pokemon. If you insist on going 4-3-2, then use fewer trainers, not fewer energy-- Stage 2's are usually energy eaters, and energy shortages tend to be fatal.
2. Use Breeders. Otherwise, you will have massive speed problems.
3. Try to use only 1 or 2 energy types. Even with all the "choose-your-energy-type" energy cards, it is difficult to run more than that, especially since you will probably need a little more energy than most decks.
4. Use a lot of trainers that let you draw, search your deck, return cards from your discard pile to your hand, and/or return cards from your discard pile or hand to the deck. Again, this is to avoid the otherwise inevitable speed problems.
5. Finally, as was said before, make sure the Pokemon work together. Usually, this will involve complementary Pokemon Powers, or a combo of a Power and an attack.
6. Related to number 5. Make sure at least a number of your Pokemon, at all stages, can use effects like those of helpful trainers, like healing, deck searching, etc. You will probably not have as many trainers as most decks, so you'll need your Pokemon to take over. Some examples (many of which are probably unlimited-only) are: Genesis Typhlosion, any of the Venusaurs, Base Kadabra, Base Dodrio, Promo Mewtwo, Base Gastly, AQ Furret, and AQ Bellossom. There are many others.
7. In general, as much as you can, make sure your Basics and Stage 1's are more than just steps to the Stage 2's. Often, you'll need to depend on them for a while until you can pull the Stage 2's out of your hat.

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From: Houston, TX | Registered: Nov 2002  |  IP: Logged
Otaku

Member # 42359



posted March 25, 2003 07:12 AM      Profile for Otaku   Email Otaku    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
quote:
Originally posted by dkates:
Basically, like Dark Pinsir said, it is difficult to build a good deck with multiple Stage 2's. I've done it a few times, though. If you have your heart set on it, here are a few tips:
1. Try going 3-2-1 on each line. You may not get out any particular Stage 2 often, but you can fit 2 sets and a few support Pokemon, or 3 Stage 2 sets, in the 20-23 spaces most people use for Pokemon. If you insist on going 4-3-2, then use fewer trainers, not fewer energy-- Stage 2's are usually energy eaters, and energy shortages tend to be fatal.

In one of those "weird" moments, deck building seems to come full circle. When you start out, you run spartan evolution lines because you both lack cards and doubt that you can keep the all the lower stages alive long enough to evolve. You run odd rainer combinations because the normal staples aren't available to you. Then you gain more skill and cards, and things become more uniform. However, running two stage twos often requires we "step back" and run lines in ways we wouldn't normally. Need to cut down on cards, I reccomend running 3-1-2 for each evo-line, with 4 Pokemon Breeders. You can also run 3-2-2 and two Breeders. I also reccomend Pokemon Breeder Fields since it can be used before and after Copycatting or Professor Oak's Research. Finally, 4 Pokemon trader are a must. I dislike Professor Elm's Training Method, as it just isn't quite up to snuff. I find I might as well take flips but save my Supporter space for something else. Since most of the time you're set after setting up the combo of the two Stage Two's, this works well.

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From: Iowa | Registered: Sep 2001  |  IP: Logged
Meganium45

Member # 99835



posted March 25, 2003 03:39 PM      Profile for Meganium45   Email Meganium45    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
Hey, with the right wheels, the 2 stage 2s can work just fine.

Played a 3-3-3 : 3-3-3

NR Kingdra/AQ Jumpluff deck at SBZ and went undefeated.

Now that you "metal heads" are out, you are forcing me to add 2 smeargle promos in the place of my elekids!

Mad props to KY dad on getting me started with this deck at KY dad's trip to St. Louis.

Takes a lot to get these to work, but when played properly, they devastate any deck out there, except for Kendle's Alakazam nasty beast.

See you on the boards...or at one of my tourneys!

Any update on the SE regional? How many players?

Meganium45 - who will begin running tourneys again in April, just in time for the 2nd SBZ?!?!?!

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Winner and parent of 6 year old winner (Little Duck) of Colinsville SBZ!
Other son was the 9 year old winner May SBZ at Dragon King, the best place to play Pokemon in the Midwest!

NOW 3 TROPHIES!!!
THE MASTER PROFESSOR IN ST. LOUIS and TO too! Yipee!

Gotta love St. Louis 8th, 9th and 10th and the Origins Professor Championship! (I was 9th :( )

Too bad we never have room for our bench - - lol.

From: St. Louis, Missouri | Registered: Aug 2002  |  IP: Logged
Dan the Pokeman

Member # 242


posted March 27, 2003 10:40 AM      Profile for Dan the Pokeman   Email Dan the Pokeman    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
It is difficult to run 2 or more Stage 2 lines, simply because the traditional lineage is at least 9 cards per line (4-3-2), sometimes more. As also noted, you need to keep up the energy count, too. That means you drop Trainers (Masterball, Pokemon Breeder Fields, Pokemon Trader, Pokemon Breeder, Dual Ball, Professor Elm's Training Method, The Boss's Way, Forest Guardian, Pokemon Fan Club, Challenge, Pokemon March, Fossil Egg, Professor Elm, Bill, Prof. Oak's Research, CopyCat). You just can't have 25 Pokemon, 25 Trainers and 20 Energy in 1 deck. Something's gotta go.

Alternatives have been mentioned above (i.e. Pokemon Breeder) which reduce the Pokemon count, but let's be realistic: that Breeder essentially counts as a Stage 1 Pokemon.

Another BIG helper with just about any deck that I didn't see listed:Pokemon Fan Club. That let's you get that all important Basic as early in the game as possible, and thus start evolving ASAP.

I did see 2 decks using E Gengar and E Feraligatr do pretty well at SBZ last month; apparently, it can be done. It'll just take some creativity and the willingness to run fewer trainers.

From: Goose Creek, SC | Registered: Feb 2001  |  IP: Logged
Gyarados vision
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Member # 109819



posted March 27, 2003 04:04 PM      Profile for Gyarados vision   Email Gyarados vision    Edit/Delete Post Report This Thread to Moderators
It also takes a lot of time to set them up.Your Pokemon may be KOed before they even prepared for fight.

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From: Cheras,Kuala Lumpur,Malaysia | Registered: Oct 2002  |  IP: Logged


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