Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

An Unfortunate Event at Indy CC

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aade8

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Hello everyone, this is Alex Ade, aade8, the HJ at the Indy CC's.

I made a mistake in a ruling earlier today that quite possibly cost the player her game.

Her opponent played a Professor Rowan, and accidentily shuffled his one card he was supposed to keep into his deck. I was called over, and without thinking it through, I asked him if he knew which card it was, and if he did, to find it, and reshuffle his deck. I realize just how wrong that was after the fact when it was too late to overturn my ruling.

Later on, the girl went to the PTO, as she should've, and asked him about the situation. He called me over, I told him what had happened exaclty (I don't lie about my wrongdoings). I admitted that I was the one at fault. After friends of hers came to her defense saying that such a misplay (the misplay of the Rowan) could've resulted in a game loss for her opponent, and should've been an auto win for her (because she had ended up losing the game).

The PTO looked in the rulings index, and found that nothing could be done so long after the fact, except to assign a severe penalty to me, the HJ. I was upset, but I continued to do my job, and accepted that it was what I deserved.

I went to both the girl and her friends and sincerely apologized for the situation, and offered to make it up to her in any way I could. She declined, and it seemed that we had come to an understanding (that I was at fault, and that I truly felt bad about everything that had occurred).

Now this post comes: http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1002665&postcount=2

I want this person to know that I hold nothing against them, and only wish to know what else they would have me do.

I feel so bad. My PTO probably isn't going to let me judge again, which means my Pokemon career is over (because I enjoyed judging and working with the players). Is this punishment not enough?

What do you think?
 
Everybody makes mistakes. It doesn't mean you're a bad judge or anything. If it were up to me, I'd let you judge again.

I can tell you're being sincere about the apology, thats whats important.
 
1st of all....props to you for coming on here and admitting the mistake. 2nd, that gameplay error most likely isnt an auto game loss move...the card says keep one card, shuffle the rest in, (offer cut), draw 4 cards. From what I could tell from an earlier post, the player still had a card (or 2) in front of them. Next time, tell them to choose one of the other 2 cards not shuffled as the card they "kept", shuffle the other and take 4.

Did the player make an "honest mistake" or were they trying to game the system? I'd say it was an honest mistake, bc who thinks they should be able to fish that particular card out. Plus, the oppo. certainly didnt know what card was shuffled in....so that can never be the correct result. If they really did shuffle in the rare candy by accident....guess what...it is still in the deck and may come back as part of the 4!

Of course....if you ever run into a situation where you have a situation you haven't dealt with before, you can always huddle up w/ the other judges/HJs.

Keith
 
I feel bad for you. But I'll say that if I was that person that ended up loosing because of your faulty ruling, I would be very upset. But I personally wouldn't want you to abandon your passion for that single mistake! Keep trying, and study to the best of your ability!
 
From what i read he played professor rowan and had one card left in his hand after playing it. That card should have stayed in his hand but he shuffled it into his deck which left him with no hand. If that is the case it should have been game loss. I may be reading it wrong.

Was the game this happened in still being played? If it was the mistake could have been corrected. Had the results for the round it happened in been entered yet? If not it still could have been corrected.

Yes i was wrong and it should have been the loss of his hand he shuffled in. Also was the player given a warning or anything or was it just let go? Just trying to get both sides of the story.
 
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aade8 said:
Hello everyone, this is Alex Ade, aade8, the HJ at the Indy CC's.

I made a mistake in a ruling earlier today that quite possibly cost the player her game.

Her opponent played a Professor Rowan, and accidentily shuffled his one card he was supposed to keep into his deck. I was called over, and without thinking it through, I asked him if he knew which card it was, and if he did, to find it, and reshuffle his deck. I realize just how wrong that was after the fact when it was too late to overturn my ruling.

Later on, the girl went to the PTO, as she should've, and asked him about the situation. He called me over, I told him what had happened exaclty (I don't lie about my wrongdoings). I admitted that I was the one at fault. After friends of hers came to her defense saying that such a misplay (the misplay of the Rowan) could've resulted in a game loss for her opponent, and should've been an auto win for her (because she had ended up losing the game).

The PTO looked in the rulings index, and found that nothing could be done so long after the fact, except to assign a severe penalty to me, the HJ. I was upset, but I continued to do my job, and accepted that it was what I deserved.

I went to both the girl and her friends and sincerely apologized for the situation, and offered to make it up to her in any way I could. She declined, and it seemed that we had come to an understanding (that I was at fault, and that I truly felt bad about everything that had occurred).

Now this post comes: http://pokegym.net/forums/showpost.php?p=1002665&postcount=2

I want this person to know that I hold nothing against them, and only wish to know what else they would have me do.

I feel so bad. My PTO probably isn't going to let me judge again, which means my Pokemon career is over (because I enjoyed judging and working with the players). Is this punishment not enough?

What do you think?
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Don't feel bad. You made the ruleing you thought was correct. Afterwards it was determined you made the wrong ruleing and no one was able to correct it. You apologized for the error. We are all only human, we all make mistakes and we learn from those mistakes. No one is perfect, ask one of the worlds judges or a PCL judge. If in doubt, pause the game, discuss with other staff members and consult the POP documents. Make the ruling, give time extention.

That Snowball person was out of line, if he has a problem with a PTO/HJ/Judge/Tounament/Etc... he should not come on to a public forum and rant about it, he should email POP.

Ive got to ask, are these Senor Divison players you were dealing with in this sistution.
And BTW, What was the attendace like and how big was the Judgeing staff.
 
aade8 said:
I admitted that I was the one at fault. After friends of hers came to her defense saying that such a misplay (the misplay of the Rowan) could've resulted in a game loss for her opponent, and should've been an auto win for her (because she had ended up losing the game).
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Well that's not true. She should not have gotten an auto win out if it either.
At worst, the player would have just lost the one card they were supposed to have kept.
I thought they had kept a different card and changed their mind, no?
In any event, giving a game loss would have been worst than anything over something like that.

Also, going to the PTO is not the right thing to do.
Going to the Head Judge is the correct thing to do.
But at the time of the ruling, not after the fact. Then, it's too late.

I also think that everyone makes mistakes and I hope you do get to judge again.
Making a bad mistake can be a good experience for the future, if it is used as a learning experience.
 
It is definitely admirable that you have been upfront and honest about your mistake. It can happen to anyone at anytime. I've made a mistake in judging before too. You and I are both humans, you made a judgement call perhaps too quickly. It happens. Which is why there are steps that can be taken (the player(s) involved) could have gone above you to re-confirm and/or get a second opinion/correction. But, I do know what you mean when you speak about how horrible you feel when you _could_ have cost someone the game. I am not trying to expunge the error from happening, but I hate to see someone beat themself up over something that was an accident. I am sure you have aided your PTO many times in the past and have been a valuable part of his staff. Think about where they would be without you.

In regards to your other part of the post regarding other's opinions of the situation, you will have that unfortunately. I too have been a little too brash in my younger days. Although I disagree with the comment posed by the other party, it is their opinion. Now with that being said, I would not take what one person posts on a public forum from behind their computer. Will others feel the same way? Maybe, but you cannot please everyone all of the time.

Again, I think you've done the admirable thing by how you've conducted yourself both on the Boards and with your PTO. If I were in the PTO's shoes, I could not relieve your duties forever. Mistakes are inevitable, chances are every PTO and/or HJ has had a momentary lack of judgement. You've learned from this experience, just grow and move on. You'll be fine bud. Just be positive, and try not to worry too much about what all the naysayers might think.

Good luck, and have a Merry Christmas,

~Jim
 
I should have thought it though. I told the player that if he knew the card that he meant to keep, he could retreieve it, reshuffle, and continue the Rowan operation. What I didn't consider was that the player could very easily choose a card of his own preferance in place of what the actual card was without their opponent, or me knowing. I'm not saying that the player lied, but it was a clear possibility because of the clear lack of public knowledge. I didn't think it though, and that is where my huge error was.

However, while I believe that TDTwins posted that this may indeed result in a game loss (diff. thread), I being a very sensitive person tend to sway away from giving harsh penalties, such as GL's. I realize that I shouldn't let sentiment get in the way of a logical process. But, as Lawman pointed out, there was nothing that we could do after the slip of paper (that both players initialled) was turned in. I deeply regret it, but my at that point, my hands were tied.
 
aade8 said:
I should have thought it though. I told the player that if he knew the card that he meant to keep, he could retreieve it, reshuffle, and continue the Rowan operation. What I didn't consider was that the player could very easily choose a card of his own preferance in place of what the actual card was without their opponent, or me knowing. I'm not saying that the player lied, but it was a clear possibility because of the clear lack of public knowledge. I didn't think it though, and that is where my huge error was.

However, while I believe that TDTwins posted that this may indeed result in a game loss (diff. thread), I being a very sensitive person tend to sway away from giving harsh penalties, such as GL's. I realize that I shouldn't let sentiment get in the way of a logical process. But, as Lawman pointed out, there was nothing that we could do after the slip of paper (that both players initialled) was turned in. I deeply regret it, but my at that point, my hands were tied.
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Here I quoted and will post them here (I took out the congrats to Dustin when I copy/pasted this).

TheDarkTwins said:
Um, I am not gonna take sides, but last I checked shuffle your hand into your deck when you werent suppose to was an irreversible action. There is no way for a Judge to come over and figure out what was in the players hand without blindly trusting them. I am pretty sure that the floor rules state shuffle your hand into your deck is a game loss. I have never heard it being ruled any other way. So if that is the case, I want to know if you can point it out to me in the floor rules.

Thanks,
Drew

Edit - I found the correct ruling in the resources -

7.1.3. Severe
In some cases, a game-play error occurs which irreparably breaks the game state.
In these cases, there is no way that either player or a judge can reset the game to
the point where it can be continued.
In addition to the assigned penalty to the offending player, a Warning should be
issued to the player’s opponent for not properly keeping track of game state and
rules.
Examples of Game-Play Error: Severe include:
• Shuffling your hand into your deck without the use of a card effect.
• Shuffling your Prize cards into your deck without the use of a card effect.
• Shuffling your discard pile into your deck without the use of a card effect.
• Picking up your cards before both players agree on the game winner.
Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Game Loss
Tier 2: Game Loss

I am not saying that this should of been the ruling but if a player shuffles there hand into there deck when they arent suppose to that would be my ruling. (points above) I dont know what happened but I just have what I have read and what has been posted to go on.
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TheDarkTwins said:
Doesnt matter, the fact is if you shuffle any cards that your not suppose to, which is the supposed scenario here it is, an automatic game loss. I have heard a few of the POP employee state that they dont condone the ruling of losing your hand. You can tell that player you lost that card now draw 5 or 4. It changes the whole game to a place where you just cant fix it. While it may not be a huge error the floor rules state it is a game loss. I want to know what you would call this error so I can look it up. I just cant justify anything but a game loss in this situation. I think what we need is to have someone who can make an official rule on this so we dont have a bunch of people going back and forth.

JMO,
Drew
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Hope the helps,
Drew
 
PokePop said:
Also, going to the PTO is not the right thing to do.
Going to the Head Judge is the correct thing to do.
But at the time of the ruling, not after the fact. Then, it's too late.
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Something that seems to be overlooked is that he was the HJ...so that aspect was taken care of correctly. Is it her responsibilty to go OVER the HJ? Come on. The fact of the matter is, when not even a warning was given out by the HJ, that shows some serious issues and concerns for others in that tournament besides that single match for the day. This wasn't one simple mistake. It was many. And yes, as TheDarkTwins has pointed out, it would have been a game loss like originally thought.

Alex, you are a great guy and the last thing I want to do is ruin your pokemon career. However, your knowledge of at least the penalty guidelines has me seriously concerned if you are going to be judging.
 
I did give him a warning. I thought that was enough at the time.

I know the rules as well as anyone, and I stand by my qualification to be a judge. I made a mistake, Matt, I admitted it, and I've apologized in all the ways I can think of.

Nobody can tell me that they haven't made a mistake before, even a serious one. Everybody does, and everyone learns from them. This tells me that I need to pay extra special attention to each and every situation that comes my way when judging, even more than I had already given. So, I learn, I move on, can you do the same?
 
Drew and others it is is very VERY unlikely to be game loss. The player most likely to get the game loss would be the player clamouring for one.

True the hand was shuffled in, but WITH the effect of a card. Big difference!

The error was that the wrong card/number of cards was shuffled in with the effect of Rowan. That is not a 'Severe' level error. A warning was the correct penalty from what I've read about the incident. Where Ade went wrong was with an incorrect repair of the game state, which he plainly realises and obviously feels bad about.

------------

I've made ruling errors too. It goes with the territory. Good judges learn from their errors and make best effort not to repeat them in future. The only thing that I'm certain of is that I will make another error at some point in the future. Knowing this I make best effort to make that occurrence as far into the future as possible.
 
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Oh and while we're on the topic of Judge mistakes, when someones missing an opponent, you don't wait 20 minutes then re-pair the whole age group. You start the round, if they aren't there at the 20 minute mark, they auto-forfeit. The re-pair thing happened twice. IMO on the Rowan's, caution to Rowan playing player and they draw 4.
 
I agree with NoPoke. The effect of the card stated that the cards were to be shuffled in. There was just one extra card shuffled that shouldn't have. As for the play correction - EVERY judge sooner or later makes a mistake. That's a given. I'm certainly no exception. Like others have said, you have to move forward, and get past that mistake. Spoinkmaster probably had the proper after-effect down in his comment above: caution and draw 4 or at worst, like NoPoke alluded to: Warning and draw 4. As for what you can do now, asking for forgiveness was certainly a classy move, that's a given in my books, but the next step is to also forgive yourself, and move on. Learn from this. ...... I have.

You'd certainly be welcome to judge any events I organize. Any chance you'd be interested in coming north for the next set of Battle Roads? I have judges that have made mistakes and realize it on my team, rather than those who never have, and think they can handle anything. Believe me, it'll be a rude awakening.
 
NoPoke said:
Drew and others it is is very VERY unlikely to be game loss. The player most likely to get the game loss would be the player clamouring for one.

True the hand was shuffled in, but WITH the effect of a card. Big difference!

The error was that the wrong card/number of cards was shuffled in with the effect of Rowan. That is not a 'Severe' level error. A warning was the correct penalty from what I've read about the incident. Where Ade went wrong was with an incorrect repair of the game state, which he plainly realises and obviously feels bad about.

------------

I've made ruling errors too. It goes with the territory. Good judges learn from their errors and make best effort not to repeat them in future. The only thing that I'm certain of is that I will make another error at some point in the future. Knowing this I make best effort to make that occurrence as far into the future as possible.
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I disagree, The card says shuffle all card back in except 1. He had only 1, the card effect didnt tell him to shuffle in that 1 card. Whether he did or not, it is an irreversible action which cant be undone. Other than trusting the player, which in most cases I dont think is an option (not saying that the player isnt trustworthy), but I dont see how you can fix it. And while you may say it was a card effect, it wasnt, The card tells him to shuffle all but 1. He has only 1. The card didnt tell him to shuffle it in. It was a effect that was not on the card. I also think that it has been said that an irreversible error (like the above) is a game loss. You can not make him lose that 1 card and draw 4 as from what I understand POP doesnt abide by the you just lost your hand/card ruling. I have to disagree on this one. I really think that POP needs to make a ruling so everyone can get a final answer.

JMO,
Drew
 
Perhaps it was a major infraction and not severe (there is a difference) so how about he loses the one card and a prize swap?
 
I cant believe all the Professors here giving Ade such a hard time. :nonono: Where is your SotG???

He apologoized, admitted an error and has moved on. Trust me, even if the HJ is the one making the 1st ruling, if a player has a question about it, I dont know too many judges/HJs that wouldnt huddle up with the other judges to discuss this. Yes, the HJ's ruling is final, but you can ask the group to consider it, nicely, I might add. Dont get a penalty yourself by showing poor sportmanship.

Ade: Please understand that when a player or group of players THINK you erred (whether you did or didnt), they will hound you about it. Let it go and move on. You have done more than you needed to here to show your remorse. Judges need thick skin to deal with any whiners around and a compassionate heart to deal with everyone. Many times, when you make a ruling, someone isnt totally pleased with the outcome, even when we are correct a high majority of the time. I've seen so many sour grapes threads here to last a small lifetime. It is one thing to say "IMO, the penalty/result should be X, not Y" It is different when you offer the judge's head up on a platter at the same time.

Keith
 
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have the player who shuffled in the 1 card just draw 4 and forget about that one card. having less cards in your hand is penalty enough.
 
I think with new cards coming out ever so often, a few rules won't cover every situation. That's why I feel this case shouldn't be a game loss. This isn't a person playing a steven's advice and shuffling their hand into their deck. This card involves shuffling cards into the deck and the person made a slight mistake and shuffled in their only card. IMHO, since the card involved shuffling, the situation can be seen as a less severe accident and IMHO the player should lose the card and complete the rest of the supporter.

I feel too many players jump for game losses. They are HAPPY to win by an opponent making a mistake and receiving a game loss. I can understand when a penalty has to be given, but to jump for joy when you win because of that is kind of pathetic. /off-topic
 
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