Whats a player to do???

[Rocketman]

Sorry Steve, I have to agree with Vince and Clay on this. Should never be done. It's a slippery slope that once you go down, you open the door to a real hornets nest. No parent judges making rulings on their kids........no claims of favoritism. period.
All it takes is one bad ruling in favor of your kid. Even if you thought it was the right one. Then players will always wonder if the right ruling is being made. The best way to insure that the best rulings are made is to elimanate that possibility.

 

[SteveP]

I find it interesting that the same PTOs who say to their judges, "Trust your fellow judges to make the right call," also say, "We can't trust you to to make the right call when your kid is involved." In otherwards, "We don't trust you, but you're required to trust others."

A few years ago, I was asked to help judge at a major premier event. When I told the PTO that my kid was in that age division, instead of saying, "Stay away from ruling on your kid," he said, "I trust you."

I don't have any problems with PTOs assigning parents to judge other age groups, having alternate HJs, etc. That's what we do here in CO whenever possible. We DON'T rule on matches where our kids are involved. But, judge or not, I'm a dad first! Though I can't rule for my kid, I will be an advocate if necessary.

 

[SD PokeMom]

how can you be an 'advocate' for your child when judging a different age group?

if you're judging juniors for example when your child is playing in masters...how do you even know what's going on over on that side of the room if your concentration is focussed on the matches you're _judging_, as it *should* be?

i judged juniors at regionals; my kids play in seniors and masters. i have NO idea what went on in their groups; my attention was on my job, which was the junior division. trying to keep an 'eye' on my kids' matches would have been a disservice to the matches i was _supposed_ to be watching, imho.

'mom

 

[Lawman]

SteveP: You have it wrong there, the PTOs DO trust their judges to make the right call, even on matches that would involve their kids. The primary issue is the integrety of the event. That must be above all. It is about the players and their families not NEEDING to question if a judge's ruling is biased or not. The game doesnt need that IMO. PUI's main concern is that also IMO.

Keith

 

[SteveP]

This IS a matter of trust, but it's also a desire to avoid appearances. I can understand that desire.

And PokeMom, you're 100% right about staying away from your kid's match while judging other age divisions. I'm talking more about being a head judge or PTO where avoidance is nearly impossible.

Listen, I can understand this perception by players that judges might be biased. Heck, I know of players who don't want certain judges doing their initial deck checks because those judges' kids are in their age group. Do we stop parent-judges from doing deck checks too?

Bottom line: Judges should avoid "ruling" on matches where family members are involved. I follow that rule whenever possible. In the 9 years I've judged, I've only had to rule once at a major event in a match involving my kid. In that ruling, I avoided the appearance of being biased by not knowing who I was ruling for before I made the ruling.

Nevertheless, if the time ever came (it hasn't yet) that I felt my kid wasn't being treated fairly, I'd take off my judge "hat" and be his advocate. I might get relieved of my duties, but I wouldn't let my kid think I abandoned him.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Back on topic.

I've seen judges who hate to be told they're wrong, even with "all the evidence in the world" being waved in their faces. What can you do about that? Probably nothing at the time. That happened here in Colorado years ago when I first started playing. I knew more than the judge. He had no desire to keep current with the rules and rulings. It took about 6 months, but I was eventually able to replace him. I've never seen him since.

So, there's not much a player can do during the "heat of the battle." But eventually, the "thorn can be removed."

 

[PokeDaddy]

I think we are all missing the initial question.....

WHAT CAN I DO AS A PLAYER AT THE TIME OF THE IMPROPER CALL/PENALTY IS BEING MADE?

I have heard all the feedback responses. I will strongly encourage that to all my players. However, with Nationals coming up, this should really be resolved.

Jimmy,

To answer your question... Let's say I was playing and a judge made a mistake. Mistake here is from the player's perspective is you disagree with the ruling/call/penalty.

Me: Judge, no disrespect. I am led to believe that XXX to be true. Have I been wrong?
Judge: <Explains rationale>
Me: I really don't get it. Could we possibly get the HJ's take on this please?
Judge: Sure <this is the only answer that is acceptable, in normal circumstances>. Put your hands down, I'll go get the HJ, if we need a time extension, don't worry. <Judge gets HJ, they talk for a bit, come over to table>
Judge: <Calmly explains the reason/rationale for the decision>
Me: <Addressing HJ> I still don't agree. Can we check the rule book or compendium please?
HJ: OK, however I am sure on this.
Me: If you don't mind, please take a look.
HJ: As I said, I am sure of this. I have the compendium at the desk. Hold On.
HJ: <goes, get's compendium, brings it to table> The closest thing to this ruling is described right here. In the past, we have judged it like this at Nats and Worlds etc... It is not black and white however this is my ruling. Resume the game, give them an X minute time extension.
Me: OK, I still disagree. This decision will cost me the game. I lose.
Me: Play on the rest of the way.
Me: Go home, write feedback into POP.​

That's it.

You're done.

Life moves on.

 

[BANGINBOX]

Man dem grapes are so SOUR!!!

PLease understand that I am asking for many of my new player. I understand how to handle it. Its the judges who dont know how to handle me. :biggrin:

I am mostly asking for clearification on non card specific rlings. Such as....

Slanted deck,
Extended rounds in cut
no prizes laid after drawing 1 card...

All I am asking for is consistancy across the board on silly little things that can ultimately cost a player.

Thanx for all the replies,
Jimmy

 

[BJJ763]

All I am asking for is consistancy ....

Kind of hard to do as each instance should be looked at as a seperate issue and each could have many different factors.


They are called "guidelines" for a reason.

 

[Rocketman]

Man dem grapes are so SOUR!!!

PLease understand that I am asking for many of my new player. I understand how to handle it. Its the judges who dont know how to handle me. :biggrin:

I am mostly asking for clearification on non card specific rlings. Such as....

Slanted deck,
Extended rounds in cut
no prizes laid after drawing 1 card...

All I am asking for is consistancy across the board on silly little things that can ultimately cost a player.

Thanx for all the replies,
Jimmy

yes, I think this thread tried to go somewhere else. Steve can start another one on the virtues of parent judges leaving their post to go dicuss their kids rulings.
Jimmy, what you asked at the start of this was what can a player do when he know the judge is wrong. You got that answered, that is, appeal to the HJ. Then try and ask for a comp. check. Once the HJ has given a final ruling, the issue is over, but you can still report it to PUI. That answers your first question.
Now for the rest......
slanted deck......you know, my personal opinion is that it's really hard to cheat by turning your deck sideways. I tried to do this, but I couldn't without making it obvious ( in practice, of course!)
But every TO and judge has their thing, and if you go to their tournaments, then you are gonna have to go by their rules. If the worse thing that happens to you that day is a judge made you turn your deck, you had a really good day.
Extended rounds in cut. This has happened once. ( that I know of) If you count all the preimer events PUI PTO's have run in the past 3 years, and check to see how many of them did this, our record would be 99%. You happen to be at the one that did, it happens. I'm sure PUI took steps to make sure it doesn't happen again. :thumb:
No prizes laid after drawing 1 card. I could be wrong, but the ruling should be if you haven't used a search card, it's a PP. If you did, GL.
Jimmy, all the PTO's I know try their very best to put on a great tournament, and everyone I know who has judged with or for me has also tried haed. We don't do this for a living, we all have day jobs. We for the most part do it because we love the game! But we take this very seriously, and work for weeks in advance to get them together. And since PUI has taken over, we have made quantum leaps in judging skill and consistancy. Or did you prefer the wotc days when judging was done by mtg staff, and the premier events were what, twice a year?
Think about how the game has improved over the past 5 years. If we do as well the next 5, then we will have improved what is already the best supported and best staffed ccg.
Just looking at the big picture.
Rick
ps.....how would you feel about the consistancy if the judge in your division was over in juniors discussing his kids ruling and you were sitting there with your hand in the air..........heh
Team Rocket is so much fun!

 

[BANGINBOX]

I am an adult and understand that sometimes it is what it is....

However, Should we as players settle for a ....."because I said so" type of environment? I personally have a tough time thinking thats what we have some to. I think the game has made TREMENDOUS strides in improving the organized play aspect of the game. Guideline are as such for players. I get it.

I do however think its time that we start to turn the corner on efficiency of judges. Not all of them are as thorough as some of the ones who took the time to answer. This thread is the perfect example of those who care and who careless...:frown:

Jimmy

 

[Lawman]

Jimmy: As a player, you have to accept the ruling onsite from the HJ. If you look up the Q later and they were wrong, submit feedback. Likewise, you can talk to that judge again and explain why you think the ruling was incorrect. Not all rulings are black and white. Many are black and white. Those are the ones that are tough to swallow as a player bc the HJ wont look it up. I've had that happen to me before too, way back when before I did much/any judging. The overall judging is much better today than 4-5 yrs ago. We can strive to do better.

Just dont go "postal" on a judge/HJ when you feel "wronged" at the event. That can only lead to more trouble for the player than the judge will probably ever catch.

Keith

 

[BANGINBOX]

Me??? Postal???

I would NEVER!!!!:tongue::thumb::lol:

Jimmy

 

[Lawman]

That was for the generic "player" going "postal", I had no one in particular in mind when I typed that part Jimmy! :lol:

Keith

 

[SteveP]

Kind of hard to do as each instance should be looked at as a seperate issue and each could have many different factors.

They are called "guidelines" for a reason.

That's how I see judges. To them all the rules are guidelines and each situation is different, so interpretations and rulings are often different. When that happens, consistency "goes out the window."

I see "arguing" with judges just like any lawyer would argue their case before a judge. Show them the "law," cite precedence, then rest. Hopefully, your evidence is convincing. If not, then appeal. Sometimes, people got to jail for long periods of time before their appeal rectifies the wrong.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

ps.....how would you feel about the consistancy if the judge in your division was over in juniors discussing his kids ruling and you were sitting there with your hand in the air..........heh
Team Rocket is so much fun!

ps (on topic).....how would you feel about the consistency if the judge in your division said the rulings were just "guidelines," that each situation is different, and ruled differently than the guidelines?

 

[bulbasnore]

Kim, I did it in 20 words, what's my prize?

How 'bout we sit down and I buy you and Thomas a drink in the food court? I'll bring some PokéGym dice.

BTW, good for you! It's a little obscure (to me) that reporting an event has to do with checking my record. But every player should be encouraged to do this, it will help with consistency in the long run.

Me: I really don't get it. Could we possibly get the HJ's take on this please?

I'd like to elaborate, the HJ, by the will of PUI, MUST be brought to the table on an appeal. There is no judge 'checking' with the HJ - that's ok as an unsolicited rulings check, but is not valid on an appeal.

slanted deck......you know, my personal opinion is that it's really hard to cheat by turning your deck sideways.

Gah, I'm a cheater! I always turn my d/c pile sideways so I don't mix it with my bench, and therefore turn my deck sideways, too!

 

[Lawman]

*sniff sniff sniff* Was that Pokegym dice I just smelled Kim?? Me wants some please? :biggrin:

Keith

 

[pokeMATHter]

slanted deck......you know, my personal opinion is that it's really hard to cheat by turning your deck sideways. I tried to do this, but I couldn't without making it obvious ( in practice, of course!)

Rick

How do you cheat by slanting your deck? Are you trying to stack it? Are you just trying to see what the next card is? Does it make it easier to slip an extra card back into the deck? What advantage are you looking for?

 

[Naki Feralkin]

My question is, whats happens to the judge who made the initial bad call? More training? retake the proffessor test? I have also come to realize that it happens mostly at cities, states, and regionals.

If I were a HJ I would maybe reprimand them and try to find ways to help them improve as a judge instead of slurring them because they erred. Granted, I'll poke fun at the person for a little while, but I would only do it in fun, and most of the judges I know are locals and we joke around. I've seen a few judges around these parts and a certain TO who shall remain nameless make errors, but it happens. We're all busy guys and girls (At least I hope we all are, I'm an active judge, myself.), but I don't think singling them out really should be viable. If the mistakes continue, I see nothing wrong with maybe taking action, but for one mistake? Nah.

I know you might see this as tame, and the instance you have given indeed could have been handled better, but people do have off days. I mean, you make a mistake at work, you clean up your mess, apologize, and try again. If the quality of your work has been good until that point, then I don't see the point of just kicking someone.

I guess you could call it more training. I'm always learning with each event I judge.

i judged juniors at regionals; my kids play in seniors and masters. i have NO idea what went on in their groups; my attention was on my job, which was the junior division. trying to keep an 'eye' on my kids' matches would have been a disservice to the matches i was _supposed_ to be watching, imho.

I've had instances where I've had to stay away from my own division entirely. Having a girlfriend playing as well as a younger sister who also attend events regularly when I'm judging and not playing makes it so I can't even touch Masters Division sometimes. Sometimes they just keep me away from those games, other times not even allowed in that area. Not that I mind, I rather like the diversity of the kids' decks. Definitely beats watching a Top 4 where each game is Gardylade.

 

[bulbasnore]

Thinking some more about the original topic and the tendered solution, "Can I demand to see it in writing?". That is probably not workable as a requirement in tournament procedure. However, I think TO/PTO should be consistently communicating to judges that every ruling ought to have a definite basis in a source document, e.g. rules team rulings (published in Compendium), penalty guidelines, tournament procedures, etc.

Players can bring up those documents in the discussion and ask a judge to check them, definitely should prompt some thinking by staff.

*sniff sniff sniff* Was that Pokegym dice I just smelled Kim?? Me wants some please? :biggrin:

Well, I reckon Steve has dibs if he says he wants to write it up, but if you put up the reference guide for this 'player skill' of finding the report button on the 'Gym, I'll give you one, too. Or, you guys could collaborate. PM me and I'll give you a vBulletin editable web page for it.

If we have that written up, we can put a link to it at the top of every tourney forum!

 

[Rocketman]

It has been said that you can see the next card easier if your deck is sideways. That is nice, now if you could put the card that you need on top by turning it sideways, that would be a neat trick.
I couldn't do either.
But I'm a really bad player, I did lose to Kim once........:lol: ....he does play with his deck sideways, hmmm.........
Rick