Current State of the game… As seen by Jimmy Ballard

[Top Cut Comics]

Current State of the game… As seen by Jimmy Ballard​

Hello to all Pokemon players,

First, I would like to say it has truly been a while since I have posted anything here outside the tournaments I host. I am sorry. Life has taken a firm grip and will not let go. I will try to participate more frequently in the future. Also note, Banginbox will no longer be posting here. ShopCCNC is the name that better suits my current mission for the game and life.

I decided to write this article to address a few things I see as a detriment to the game in its current state as well as offer some solutions to fix the game as a whole. I love this game. I can’t even begin to tell you what it has done for me and my family. I would hate to see it spiral out of control without attempting to help in any way I can.

So on to the main issue….

I would like to address the T1 win potential. This is truly a sad, sad day for the game when this happens. I can understand that the creators want to speed the game to keep up with its competitors such as Magic the Gathering and Yu-Gi-Oh! However, it is not something that fits our game well at all. There is nothing worse than spending countless hours perfecting a deck, only to lose 3 out of 5 matches before you even get to play a card.

Please allow me to explain further. In Magic and Yu-gi-oh there is NO win condition if they have NO cards on the field. This allows for speed and can accommodate for the overall power of the cards. If there were such a win condition in those games they would not be able to survive. This is, I’m afraid, were we are heading.

It seems, as of late, PCL has made many mistakes in printing cards that are to powerful for the game. Instead of banning or errating them, they choose to make a more powerful counter to said card. While I will agree with most about the metagame being diverse, I can not agree that it’s what’s right for the game at this point. There a many underlying issues with the current metagame.

First, where is the incentive to pick up a deck and practice? Seems like just about anyone can put off the game for months, pick up (Insert Auto-Pilot Deck here) and top cut at a tournament. I’m sorry, but I can’t see how this would be GOOD for the game. Obviously I can only speak from personal experiences and am looking for some other points of view. However, there is a CLEAR separation in the opinions on the gym. Those who run (Insert Auto-Pilot Deck here) vs. those who take the time to perfect a decent deck that is meant for the longer games to gain advantages over the course of games. The flaming in such threads is absolutely terrible.

Second, PUI has graced us with 40 minute time limits only to have 25% of games ending within the first 5 minutes. I am willing to bet that most games are also decided within that same time frame, win or lose. WHY??? This should not be the case in a game that once took a high level of skill to play. I will not get into a flaming war about how much skill it takes to play in the current format as that will get us no where. I will say that auto pilot decks have made it much easier for new players and less skilled players to compete at a higher level. This is NOT a bad thing. I am sure that it helps sales and makes the game look more appealing to other gamers. This is a great marketing strategy. Not so good for experienced dedicated players.

Lastly, I am convinced that the opening coin flip determines the winner more than 75% of the time. This is evidence that something is wrong. A coin flip is supposed to give each player a 50-50 chance at winning a game. Currently this is not the case. I am going to track my battle roads and see how many games are actually determined by the opening coin flip, as well as T1 wins and post it in this thread when my results are complete. I am really looking for some statistical facts to back up my concerns about the game. Is this truly good for the game? PCL did a great job steering us away from T1 wins a few years ago. Now we are headed down that dreaded road again.

So, I think I just about covered the meat and bones of our current state of the game. Now let me lay out one thing that I feel can help ALL players. New, experienced, casual, poke-parents, and even you Vince! :biggrin: I have heard many people trying to come up with a variety of different ways to help the T1 problem. Thank you all for at least attempting to correct a problem this is quite evident.

The largest suggestion I heard was, to allow supporters on turn one of the games. While that worked for us in the past, I am not so sure this will help us in the future. While reading spoilers I noticed there were quite a few supporters that would also assist in the T1 win/loss that we are trying to avoid. I recently spoke with someone who suggested allowing each player to search out 3 pokemon from their deck. This would keep it in line with the video game by allowing you to pick your initial team of three. That one seems to have some promise.

So on to the idea I believe could increase table time for all players without increasing venue time. This idea would also allow more table time even if you took a T1 KO.

Currently the rule book states…..

You win the game if any one or more of these things occur:
• You collect all of your Prize cards (collect Prize cards as your opponent’s Pokémon are Knocked Out).
• Knock Out your opponent’s last Pokémon in play.
• Your opponent is out of cards in his or her deck, when he or she goes to draw a card at the beginning of the turn.

Let’s take a look at the second bullet point. It is saying, if you cannot promote another pokemon from your bench into the active spot at the beginning of your turn, you lose the game. This is where I think we are being limited. Other games allow you to continue playing with no cards on the field and I believe it could also work here.

Here is the ruling change I would suggest to help the game.

You win the game if any one or more of these things occur:
• You collect all of your Prize cards (collect Prize cards as your opponent’s Pokémon are Knocked Out).
• Your opponent does not have an active Pokemon at the end of their turn.
• Your opponent is out of cards in his or her deck, when he or she goes to draw a card at the beginning of the turn.

Seems like a simple fix to increase playing time for all involved. This would allow new players to compete with experienced players without having a game decided by the opening coin flip. All the current rules would remain the same. No need to alter the current trainer rules, as now player one would get a chance to play the game. This is what we are looking for after all. This rule could apply throughout the entire game. Think of the options this would bring to building decks. What a fun time it would become.

So with a rule change, I have thought about how it would affect the game as a whole. There are certainly some questions that would arise with a change of that nature. I will list the ones I thought of and would be willing to talk through some I did not think about.

First, If I have no pokemon in play at the beginning of my turn and I play a Rosanne’s Research. Does one of the pokemon go DIRECTLY into the active or on the bench then promoted?

Now I am not a part of the rules team, But, I think I could handle this one…. I would have to say benching your poke FIRST would be required in order to PROMOTE it active. This would allow coming into play powers to activate prior to having it become your active.

Second, how would this affect the legendary birds? I would still think you would use them as the power states.

Lastly, If my opponent does not promote a pokemon and ends his turn, what happens??? YOU WIN!!!

Let’s face it, if player 2 takes a KO turn one, he/she is still facing a huge uphill battle. But at least it’s a battle!!! Table time increase the overall enjoyment of the game. It would also encourage people to practice, scout, and get creative with their deck choices. I want to make something very clear here…. I do not intend this to be a bashing session for players who run auto-pilot decks. There is no bashing anyone for wanting to win. It has been proven that these style of decks win tournament. Why not run them???

Please keep all replies logical and expressive as this may at some point get rolled up to the people who make these decisions.

Thank you and good luck at Nationals!!!

Special Thanks to Teddy for his input on this issue!!!

Jimmy Ballard

 

[meganium45]

So, one of your ideas would be to take it from "I choose one" to "I choose 3"

Interesting.

I know that T10 Beedrill Donk is still getting to you. (Yes, for the record, I have one, and only one positive tourney moment in the last 3 years, and I am going to milk it for all the mileage I can get. Sad, yes. True, yes.)

Love Ya.

Vince

 

[GinoLombardi21]

I think the Galactics decks were an overpowered counter to the metagame that was promoted. Galactics aka SP decks play 13-18 basics usually. So the old T1 gengar, Kingdra, Machamp, Rampardos isnt as effective because playing with 13-18 basics in a deck you usually start with 2-3 minimum. Also people that play call energy that go first dont always get donked.

I know getting T1'd is horrible but look at what won regionals. Kingdra and Machamp took two regionals while SP decks took 6 because they easily outplay these rare candy, super consistancy, donk heavy strategys. With the new set approaching I dont see these donk decks being so popular anymore espescially with UPPER ENERGY coming out.

SP pokemon have soo much support in this upcoming set. At nationals im pretty sure galactics decks will control 40-60% of the field. With galactics being this strong and upper energy coming around I think Kingdra has seen its close but not machamp because machamp does well vs. decks without unown g which people like and dislike to tech in there decks. Not everyone plays 2-3 some play 1. Some even play 0. Not to mention machamps t1 donk is guarenteed. I like this format because before I play in a tournament theres over 20 types of decks. So it shows deck type, deck list, and skill entering a tournament.

A perfect example would be playing gengar with all the galactics running around. With skunktank slapped with an unown g on it and them killing ur gengars 1 by 1 with poison. All these crobats running around. Not a smart deck choice. This format you really have to think and be careful of what you play. Cuz bad matchups are out there as always but with 10-15 decks in the metagame you have to be careful of what you play.

I liked the previous metagames since I've been playing pokemon but this one is definetly the coolest and most interesting IMO. Hollaaaa

 

[Top Cut Comics]

Gino....

I did not get into decks purposly in my post to avoid simple comparisons.

I decided to write this now to try and get something done before next format.

Just assuming we lose unown g, the game is gonna take a huge swing south. T1 will be the only way to play.

Jimmy

 

[afstandopleren]

T1 is already the only play for most players. There is already no real balance found in the areas where T1 decks keep on reigning supreme. The problem is now and they should deal with it now, otherwise I see Nats and Worlds becoming real Donkfests if some players want to win uber bad.

Unown G isn't helping much. Most decks only have 2. Enough to prevent from having to start with it while not increasing the chance of having your sole Unown G prized. But 2 still isn't enough when looking at the chance of getting it in your starting hand along with another poke.

Besides, the ways of Donking someone have increased with the likes of Crobat G+ Poke Turn.

And if someone thinks there are no cards that can Donk in the next set, have a look at Luxray GL LV.X. 1 Level Max, Energy Gain and Energy will suffice.

 

[PokeDaddy]

Jimmy -

Very thought provoking, as usual.

I agree with your position on donk decks. I am speaking as a parent of a player who detests donk decks and standard decks. Where is the skill?

Winning, to some, is fun. Fun, to some, is winning. Think about that.

I recently heard a player in my son's division say that they can't win without donk decks. This person is a real good kid and I take nothing away from his skill, talent, and great SoTG. However, does this just promote that winning is more important than having fun?

I am really intrigued by your three (3) starter pokes. It would eliminate T1 donks and provide for Pokémon players a means to showcase their skill in assembling their deck. What a concept! In line with the VG and provides for a more stable game. Changing this paradigm would be huge to the TCG/OP folks. It is something that would need to be vetted ad infinitum with the global community and I daresay that the next season probably will not not see this, if at all.

Changing the rules to say what you say about an active Pokémon at the end of your next turn is an interesting concept. Just like the VG, if you get OHKOd on the first turn, you still have Pokémon that can come into play. This gives the player/trainer the ability to use a variety of methods of ensuring there is always an active Pokémon. The downside to this is that decks that "deck" folks will become huge and a new problem would arise. This change, to me, has a lot more negative under currents to the game system than starting with three Pokémon.

I sincerely wish that the powers that be look into having folks start with three Pokémon. By doing this, you would see the greatest skill and the greatest decks you could ever hope for or imagine. The included strategy of this method would make deck building an incredibility fun and challenging task.

Thanks for the input.


(PS: Love the sig. What's your glyph?)

 

[meganium45]

Steve...dangerous post to make as a judge, although I make them ALL over the place!!!

We cannot have a preference of give greater "skill level" credit to a deck that is designed to win turn 1 any more than we can to a deck that is designed to win by decking, trainer denial, within 6 turns, or any other way of winning.

Multiple ways of winning mean that there are multiple ways people should seek to win. If given the current card pool, one way is more easy to use than the others...then it seems that the smarter players would seek to take advantage of this.

Kind of nice that in the bigger, more skillful events, the T1 donks had wins, but didn't seem to win the entire events.

Several of the Machamp decks we saw, that did well, were not necessarily designed to end games on turn 1, they were designed to abuse the basic heavy envio. Seems like a good play to me!

Vince

Oh, and don't tell me PUI doesn't love the Machamp deck and idea...who is the theme Pokemon for the Fighting League, eh, eh???

 

[yoyofsho16]

I don't really like the idea of choosing 3 "Starter" Pokemon. It would ruin a lot of concepts and deck building ideas, such as only needing to have 1 Pachirisu, 1 Sableye, etc. Not a way I want the game to go.

An alternative concept for me is that there should be a rule stating that you can not win by benching your opponent if it is your first prize you have taken. There would be a requirement of it at least being your second prize that you have taken before your opponent loses from having no bench.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I am really intrigued by your three (3) starter pokes. It would eliminate T1 donks and provide for Pokémon players a means to showcase their skill in assembling their deck. What a concept!

I love how this topic came up a few months ago in the RTC, and now that Jimmy Ballard came up with it, it is a revolutionary idea.:lol:

 

[PokeDaddy]

Steve...dangerous post to make as a judge, although I make them ALL over the place!!!

Vince, In my post, I clearly said this.

I am speaking as a parent of a player who detests donk decks and standard decks. Where is the skill?

If I cannot speak as a parent of my son on these forums, then there is something wrong.

I take umbrage with this:

We cannot have a preference of give greater "skill level" credit to a deck that is designed to win turn 1 any more than we can to a deck that is designed to win by decking, trainer denial, within 6 turns, or any other way of winning.

To deign that this ever enters my mind with my judge shirt on is borderline insulting.

PM or call me if you like.

 

[GinoLombardi21]

I love the idea of 3 starter pokemon but in my oppinion it wont work because of cards like call energy, pachirisu, etc. Not to mention you could start with more then 1 pokemon in your opening hand.

 

[HoLoN_TrAiNeR]

I think that the reprint of the supporter "Pokemon Fan Club" could help to reduce donks if people use Sableye SF to use it in the 1st turn, going first because of the pokebody obviously.
That would make Sableye more playable.

...just a thought.

 

[Scipio]

3 Pokemon to start with? Here, I'll just pick these 3 Weedles and you can imagine the rest...

Aside from that though, I couldn't really agree more. We really need a way to stop those T1 wins...tho I believe thats stated all over the board.

Then again, when looking at the next sets, it seems that if you want to donk you'll need coinflips (Luxray with LVMax) and a lot of decks seem to slow down, countering speed decks with various tricks. Just a thought, maybe PCL DID notice.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

I think that we could solve the T1 donk, if we allow the person going first to be able to play only Supporters (not trainers or stadiums). I could use that Roseanne I might have to grab two basics preventing my Opponent from being able to bench me. I think that would be a better choice then to change a rule that has been in place since the game started.

Drew

 

[Top Cut Comics]

I think that we could solve the T1 donk, if we allow the person going first to be able to play only Supporters (not trainers or stadiums). I could use that Roseanne I might have to grab two basics preventing my Opponent from being able to bench me. I think that would be a better choice then to change a rule that has been in place since the game started.

Drew

Drew, I'm sure you have seen the supporters from the next set. If they allow supporters to be played T1, we will have a MUCH MUCH bigger problem. I would love to attach 2 energy on my first turn, then KO your active before you even get a turn. Think this out before offering an idea. How is it going to affect the game in the future as well??? With a rule change, PCL can alter future card to accomidate.

Jimmy

 

[GrandmaJoner]

love the title of this thread lol....


but in all seriousness the rule change you are proposing seems like a pretty good idea, don't see too many problems with besides the surprise factor that you don't know what your opponent is gonna bring up, could be an advantage for them. not that big of a deal though as during the game normally they can pull surprise moves anyways.


I especially like yoyofosho's further elaboration on this where you cannot win by benching if it is your first prize. I think that this minimally alters the game, while it is enough to reduce the donk potential by quite a bit.

 

[Scipio]

Drew, I'm sure you have seen the supporters from the next set. If they allow supporters to be played T1, we will have a MUCH MUCH bigger problem. I would love to attach 2 energy on my first turn, then KO your active before you even get a turn. Think this out before offering an idea. How is it going to affect the game in the future as well??? With a rule change, PCL can alter future card to accomidate.

Jimmy

That would work IF we actually had basics that did enough for 2 Energy. Without Energy Gain, I can't see ANY SP that would deal enough on T1 even if they have 2 Energy. Toxicroak needs a Stadium, Luxray needs his LVX and the list goes on.

 

[GrandmaJoner]

Meh supporters t1 is not really that good of an idea IMO. You can t1 wager or galactics people, and still if you have one basic in your hand and a Bebe's Search, then you have to waste bebe to get just a basic while your active pokemon is still likely to get ko

 

[Absoltrainer]

Jimmy, first off, very nice post. Even though it says essentially the same thing, the others have said, this is the first one I read all the way through ,and actually posting in.

I've been playing since R/S, which was my first set. That was when exs were first making the schene. What you say about PUI making more and more powerful cards (referring to the power creep thread posted a while back) I very much agree with. When exs were out, instead of making more powerful cards to beat them, they were given limitations and special counters. Such as not being able to be searched for by many cards, and unable to use special energies and such. Not only that, but KOing an ex monster gave you 2 prizes. Ever since DP came out, and every set after that, we have seen cards as powerful, and more powerful then exs take the stand. These cards no longer carry the 2 prize card penalty, or the lack of search ability, or not being able to carry specials on them. Instead, they have been given more HP, stronger attacks for less energy, and ways to speed their asent into battle.

The issue, I beleive, is not to make cards more powerful to counter, because eventually, it will backfire, but rather create balances that limit a card's power. If take out required 2 energies, then Machamp decks would need AT LEAST 2 turns to attack unless they pulled off something like regirock, fighting in the discard, stark move, or something else requiring intense luck. Back in the days of LBS people would sometimes get T1 lugias because of insane luck to get out a rare candy, blastoise ex, Lugia ex, water energy, and Holon Mentor, and be able to do 200 turn 1. That was something to gripe about. You got t1ed so rarely, that you had every right to gripe about it. Now a days it happens so often, that it's become just another part of the game.

PUI is forcing players to play certain decks. Last year, players more or less had to play GG to do good whether they wanted to or not. Many players, myself included refused to play GG simply because they would rather find a way to beat it. Most of those people did not do as well as they normally did in tournaments. This year, it's the same things, only with donk decks. Now before I say anything, when I say experianced players, I am referring to people who have been playing for a good 3+ years, and have seen the EX-DP transition. Experianced players in general tend to despise donk decks, seeing them as newbish. That being said, most experianced players are smart enough to know a good deck when they see one, and will play the deck if it gurentees a chance to win.

If everyone played GG last year
And Donk decks this year.
What will happen next year?

 

[TheDarkTwins]

Drew, I'm sure you have seen the supporters from the next set. If they allow supporters to be played T1, we will have a MUCH MUCH bigger problem. I would love to attach 2 energy on my first turn, then KO your active before you even get a turn. Think this out before offering an idea. How is it going to affect the game in the future as well??? With a rule change, PCL can alter future card to accomidate.

Jimmy

It would of been fine if that one card wasn't printed, but overall I think it is a better choice than the suggestion you made. That to me makes little to no sense. I am not saying that it is a bad idea, I am just saying that there has to be a way without changing the win conditions to fix this problem. I am not sure there is a good solution at all except to stop having such powerful cards be made.

Drew

 

[PokePop]

There's another alternative that wouldn't require a game rule change at all, merely a tournament rule change, which POP has direct control of.
That would be to switch to a best 2/3 swiss format like they use in Europe.
The rounds could be either 45 or even kept to 40 minutes.
If one long game is played, great. It was a true match.
If the first game is a quick donk, then a second game gives the donked player a shot at evening it up and winning the match.