Alternative for Azelf LA? (Rotom UD)

[pokemandan]

When azelf is out, the good lithograph is in, outclassing rotom in yet another format.

Luxray is an X that spikes at $80+ during nats and worlds. Uxie is a non foil rare made into a league card...

I think he means the Lv. X.
Correct me if I'm wrong

and yeah, Rotom will grab the one you need after you've looked at it with the Alph Lithograph.
Maybe this combo will see a lot more play when Azelf gets rotated next year.

And yeah, thats what I meant, the closest thing too it. At least it gives you a chance of grabbing what you need. And it doesn't just have to be a Pokemon like Azelf does, but it could be trainers/supporters/energy too.

 

[xcfrisco]

You're really going to estimate that the Azelf Litograph is going to have the price of Luxray?

Please don't be naive. You know for a fact that a card with a 1 in 3 box pull rate and that *MAY* become a staple sometime in the near future with no alternatives will cost way more than $6-8 dollars. It may not cost $60-70 (depending on how important having things prized are is considered next format), but given the *LIKELY* scenario i've described to occur, I can easily see this card going for the anywhere from the $25-$45 price range, which is MUCH more expensive than azelf currently is.


I consider a card that has a 1 in 3 box pull ratio pretty hard to get, as do most people okeball:

 

[Victory Bell]

I realy like the new Litho but I dont think its nesscery to run with rotom. If there was an efficent way to play them together without playing more than a single Lithograph I would be all for it.

In fact, if spiritomb and vileplume were not prominent i would even play it over azelf in certain decks. (in ones that run more than one of a crucial card of course)

 

[Sabett]

Please don't be naive. You know for a fact that a card with a 1 in 3 box pull rate and that *MAY* become a staple sometime in the near future with no alternatives will cost way more than $6-8 dollars. It may not cost $60-70 (depending on how important having things prized are is considered next format), but given the *LIKELY* scenario i've described to occur, I can easily see this card going for the anywhere from the $25-$45 price range, which is MUCH more expensive than azelf currently is.


I consider a card that has a 1 in 3 box pull ratio pretty hard to get, as do most people okeball:

Point click done doesn't seem so hard to me. Also, most people aren't even considering the fact that this trainer will more than likely come out before rotation, in which it's going to have it's price taken down a notch from what it would be without azelf, so no this trainer's price is not going to range from 25-45.

Also, I never said that this would cost 6-8 dollars. I am absolutely aware that the other litographs suck. That doesn't mean this warrants any mention to luxray's price in comparison.

 

[xcfrisco]

Point click done doesn't seem so hard to me. Also, most people aren't even considering the fact that this trainer will more than likely come out before rotation, in which it's going to have it's price taken down a notch from what it would be without azelf, so no this trainer's price is not going to range from 25-45.

Also, I never said that this would cost 6-8 dollars. I am absolutely aware that the other litographs suck. That doesn't mean this warrants any mention to luxray's price in comparison.

Interesting insight. I think it would be a smart investment for all you pokemon trainers to invest in a couple copies of this card (when it comes out) while azelf is still in the format. Your wallet will thank you later :thumb:

 

[AyameHikaru]

I agree that when it comes out it will be priced lower, much like Uxie X was before Claydol rotated out. Maybe as low as $10-15.

But when Azelf rotates, I expect a price jump, much like Uxie X's, on both Rotom and the Alph. Any deck that runs any single line techs, or decks that need all of their main attackers to win, will NEED a way to look at their prizes. Rotom offers a 'switch and hope' but it with Alph is arguably more efficient than Azelf.

 

[Sabett]

Interesting insight. I think it would be a smart investment for all you pokemon trainers to invest in a couple copies of this card (when it comes out) while azelf is still in the format. Your wallet will thank you later :thumb:

I agree. :smile: At the same time though, it'll more than likely create hype when it first comes out. Some people will even test that it's better than Azelf, because it doesn't take bench space, it not sprayable, spiritomb/vileplume might've died down by then, and hey Azelf is going to rotate anyway. So don't be lax if you see a downturn in Litographs price, capitalize on it. It already has too many excuses to be more pricey than it should.

 

[baby mario]

Speculation is pretty pointless. There's a lot of cards to be released between now and the next rotation. Who knows? We may get something as good as Azelf or better than Lithograph and the price of both will drastically drop.

On topic: I think Azelf is often a necessary evil in a deck anyway. It takes up bench space, gets sprayed, is an easy Prize etc. Playing it allows you to run single copies of key cards though, which makes it mostly worthwhile.

The best solution to not having one is probably to build your deck without single card techs as far as is possible. This may be no bad thing in this format anyway.

 

[Sabett]

Speculation is pretty pointless. There's a lot of cards to be released between now and the next rotation. Who knows? We may get something as good as Azelf or better than Lithograph and the price of both will drastically drop.

On topic: I think Azelf is often a necessary evil in a deck anyway. It takes up bench space, gets sprayed, is an easy Prize etc. Playing it allows you to run single copies of key cards though, which makes it mostly worthwhile.

The best solution to not having one is probably to build your deck without single card techs as far as is possible. This may be no bad thing in this format anyway.

Speculation is pointless, if wrong. If right it's very rewarding. For example, back when luxray was at a reasonable price, someone could've looked at the card, realized the ridiculous potential, look at the current price, and realize it was going to sky rocket even more. As you can tell, a man who went through this speculation, and acted on it was rewarded, making that speculation not only have a point, but become very valuable. What do you think stock broker's do all day? Buy Blue chip stock all day? No, speculation is key to capitalizing on pokemon tcg's secondary market. You say what if we get something as good as azelf or even better, but what if we don't? Everything always has it's chances, and of course it's better to make the more reasonable analysis based on less things to gamble with, which is pretty much what this speculation is. We have no idea if something like that's going to be printed, but we do know that this litograph is going to more than likely going to be printed before the rotation, we know that if it's the only azelf card in the next rotation, it'll be the best card for that utility, we also know that if that's true, obtaining it while azelf is also in the format, will more than likely be the cheapest way, and there's also the point to consider that by the time this card comes out, when we would purchase it, we'll more than likely know what's going to be released for about half of the next rotation.

Also, do you really expect decks to start running 2 promocroaks and 2 ambipoms and 2 giratina's? 1 card techs are essential to creating enough space for a consistent engine while keeping key tech's that are essential for the format. Card's like azelf and this litograph saves everyone a ridiculous amount of space that almost every deck needs. Saying to not run one card techs isn't practical.

 

[baby mario]

Speculation is pointless, if wrong. If right it's very rewarding. For example, back when luxray was at a reasonable price, someone could've looked at the card, realized the ridiculous potential, look at the current price, and realize it was going to sky rocket even more. As you can tell, a man who went through this speculation, and acted on it was rewarded, making that speculation not only have a point, but become very valuable. What do you think stock broker's do all day? Buy Blue chip stock all day? No, speculation is key to capitalizing on pokemon tcg's secondary market. You say what if we get something as good as azelf or even better, but what if we don't? Everything always has it's chances, and of course it's better to make the more reasonable analysis based on less things to gamble with, which is pretty much what this speculation is. We have no idea if something like that's going to be printed, but we do know that this litograph is going to more than likely going to be printed before the rotation, we know that if it's the only azelf card in the next rotation, it'll be the best card for that utility, we also know that if that's true, obtaining it while azelf is also in the format, will more than likely be the cheapest way, and there's also the point to consider that by the time this card comes out, when we would purchase it, we'll more than likely know what's going to be released for about half of the next rotation.

The whole argument as to what the value of an unreleased card will be a year from now does strike me as pointless (and off-topic), but then this is the internet, so I guess I am being naive.

TBH I don't really consider the Lithograph to be that good. Azelf's major asset is that it is searchable: you look at your deck at the first opportunity and grab it if something essential is prized (and hopefully before your opponent can Spray). Lithograph is unsearchable (for practical purposes) and you still need to take the Prize. I have serious doubts as to whether it is good enough to be a staple.

Also, do you really expect decks to start running 2 promocroaks and 2 ambipoms and 2 giratina's? 1 card techs are essential to creating enough space for a consistent engine while keeping key tech's that are essential for the format. Card's like azelf and this litograph saves everyone a ridiculous amount of space that almost every deck needs. Saying to not run one card techs isn't practical.

No, I don't expect people to run 2 Promocroaks. But then I don't expect people to run a Luxchomp-type SP deck without Azelf, any more than I would expect them to run one without Garchomp X. IMO one of the biggest mistakes people make in deckbuilding is to substitute an inferior card for something they don't have, instead of building what they have the cards for. If you don't own an Azelf, then don't build an SP deck, or a deck with a vital 1-1-1 line. Instead build something with thicker, consistent lines . . . that was what my advice meant, and it was meant to address the problem of the OP.

 

[Sabett]

The whole argument as to what the value of an unreleased card will be a year from now does strike me as pointless (and off-topic), but then this is the internet, so I guess I am being naive.

TBH I don't really consider the Lithograph to be that good. Azelf's major asset is that it is searchable: you look at your deck at the first opportunity and grab it if something essential is prized (and hopefully before your opponent can Spray). Lithograph is unsearchable (for practical purposes) and you still need to take the Prize. I have serious doubts as to whether it is good enough to be a staple.


No, I don't expect people to run 2 Promocroaks. But then I don't expect people to run a Luxchomp-type SP deck without Azelf, any more than I would expect them to run one without Garchomp X. IMO one of the biggest mistakes people make in deckbuilding is to substitute an inferior card for something they don't have, instead of building what they have the cards for. If you don't own an Azelf, then don't build an SP deck, or a deck with a vital 1-1-1 line. Instead build something with thicker, consistent lines . . . that was what my advice meant, and it was meant to address the problem of the OP.

A year from now? CatS will be here 6 month tops. Besides talking about it now, and understanding the situation now, will help us have a clearer picture of what's going on via more time analyzing the situation. Suddenly deciding to buy it on a whim when it comes out is really bad.

Also, even if CatS was coming out a year from now, we would still pretty much know what's coming out before then, so that point is still moot. It would still be viable to talk about it if it was coming out a year from now, the time doesn't matter, it's the format that matters, and the format is based off of the cards that are in it, and we know (for the most part) what cards are going to be in it. You also completely ignored my example of someone turning speculation into a very valuable asset as apposed to the pointless one you keep making it out to be, and you ignore the fact that speculation, and yes years at a time, is key to what actual investors do. Speculation is one of the most important assets to anyone who wants to capitalize on any sort of financial endeavor.

So you're saying to not play an SP deck next rotation because Azelf isn't in the format? I mean you do say this "If you don't own an Azelf, then don't build an SP deck..." it not being in the format means pretty much that no one has an Azelf to play with. See, cause I'm pretty sure that if the next rotation is PL-on, that SP will more than likely still see play, and also, if this litograph is the only time walk like ability in the format, that they'll probably run 1-2.

 

[baby mario]

A year from now? CatS will be here 6 month tops. Besides talking about it now, and understanding the situation now, will help us have a clearer picture of what's going on via more time analyzing the situation. Suddenly deciding to buy it on a whim when it comes out is really bad.

Also, even if CatS was coming out a year from now, we would still pretty much know what's coming out before then, so that point is still moot. It would still be viable to talk about it if it was coming out a year from now, the time doesn't matter, it's the format that matters, and the format is based off of the cards that are in it, and we know (for the most part) what cards are going to be in it. You also completely ignored my example of someone turning speculation into a very valuable asset as apposed to the pointless one you keep making it out to be, and you ignore the fact that speculation, and yes years at a time, is key to what actual investors do. Speculation is one of the most important assets to anyone who wants to capitalize on any sort of financial endeavor.

What I said was:

The whole argument as to what the value of an unreleased card will be a year from now does strike me as pointless

I know it will be released soon-ish . . . I was referring to speculation on the VALUE in a year's time.

And I guess I just don't see Pokemon cards as a financial endeavour.

So you're saying to not play an SP deck next rotation because Azelf isn't in the format? I mean you do say this "If you don't own an Azelf, then don't build an SP deck..." it not being in the format means pretty much that no one has an Azelf to play with. See, cause I'm pretty sure that if the next rotation is PL-on, that SP will more than likely still see play, and also, if this litograph is the only time walk like ability in the format, that they'll probably run 1-2.

TPCI's stated plan is to sart the season with 9 sets and end with 13. If they continue with 4 releases per year, this means that next format will be RR-on and I doubt anyone will want to play SP then.

Last year we announced that our goal was to have a Modified format that starts with 9 regular sets at the beginning of the season and ends the season with about 13 regular sets. Now that we have achieved that goal, we will continue to rotate sets each year to ensure that our Organized Play environment remains healthy and vital moving forward.

 

[Sabett]

What I said was:



I know it will be released soon-ish . . . I was referring to speculation on the VALUE in a year's time.

And I guess I just don't see Pokemon cards as a financial endeavour.



TPCI's stated plan is to sart the season with 9 sets and end with 13. If they continue with 4 releases per year, this means that next format will be RR-on and I doubt anyone will want to play SP then.

Ah, well why would the price of that card matter by that point anyway when the best price would be sometime after it's release? It's already understood the best price was before the rotation.

Pokemon card's are a financial endeavor, whether you realize it or not, barring you have enough cash were it doesn't matter if you spend way too much money, or you borrow all your stuff. Would you rather pay a larger or smaller price for a card? Would you rather sell a card for a larger or smaller price? There's typically some sort of financial interest for everyone who plays pokemon tcg. Why would you pay more for a card on purpose?

Also, you're ignoring my hypothetical situation, it doesn't matter if the rotation's actually going to be RR-on. You said that Azelf was just as important as Garchomp C Lv.X, but if SP was still in modified and azelf was gone I'm sure there would still be a plethora of SP players. The lack of Azelf does not cripple SP into oblivion.

 

[baby mario]

Ah, well why would the price of that card matter by that point anyway when the best price would be sometime after it's release? It's already understood the best price was before the rotation.

Pokemon card's are a financial endeavor, whether you realize it or not, barring you have enough cash were it doesn't matter if you spend way too much money, or you borrow all your stuff. Would you rather pay a larger or smaller price for a card? Would you rather sell a card for a larger or smaller price? There's typically some sort of financial interest for everyone who plays pokemon tcg. Why would you pay more for a card on purpose?

Pokemon is not a financial endeavour to me in the sense that I am not interested in gambling on card futures. Obviously, if I am given the choice between a low price and a high one, I will pay the low price. Fretting about the value of Lithographs next year though? That's not for me.

Also, you're ignoring my hypothetical situation, it doesn't matter if the rotation's actually going to be RR-on. You said that Azelf was just as important as Garchomp C Lv.X, but if SP was still in modified and azelf was gone I'm sure there would still be a plethora of SP players. The lack of Azelf does not cripple SP into oblivion.

Read again . . .

I don't expect people to run a Luxchomp-type SP deck without Azelf, any more than I would expect them to run one without Garchomp X

Not all SP decks are the same. In a Luxchomp-type SP deck, which plays multiple single cards that are often essential (Ambipom, Promocroak, Bronzong, Lucario, Crobat, 3-1 LV X lines etc), then Azelf IS needed and I seriously doubt that a switch could be made to Lithograph without the deck becoming a lot less playable.

 

[Sabett]

Pokemon is not a financial endeavour to me in the sense that I am not interested in gambling on card futures. Obviously, if I am given the choice between a low price and a high one, I will pay the low price. Fretting about the value of Lithographs next year though? That's not for me.



Read again . . .



Not all SP decks are the same. In a Luxchomp-type SP deck, which plays multiple single cards that are often essential (Ambipom, Promocroak, Bronzong, Lucario, Crobat, 3-1 LV X lines etc), then Azelf IS needed and I seriously doubt that a switch could be made to Lithograph without the deck becoming a lot less playable.

Everything's a gamble, whenever you buy a card you're doing it. People who speculate just take more thought into it.

Also, I'm pretty sure Luxchomp would still be more than viable if it had to use litograph, isn't it one of the few decks that can actually abuse it more so than other decks? Play Litograph, grab prize immediately.

 

[baby mario]

Everything's a gamble, whenever you buy a card you're doing it. People who speculate just take more thought into it.

Whenever I buy a card, it's because I want it for a deck. If I make a gamble it's on whether or not that deck will be any good. I honestly don't care about its future value as I don't sell stuff.

Also, I'm pretty sure Luxchomp would still be more than viable if it had to use litograph, isn't it one of the few decks that can actually abuse it more so than other decks? Play Litograph, grab prize immediately.

As I said, the problem with that is having no way to search for Lithograph.

 

[Sabett]

Whenever I buy a card, it's because I want it for a deck. If I make a gamble it's on whether or not that deck will be any good. I honestly don't care about its future value as I don't sell stuff.



As I said, the problem with that is having no way to search for Lithograph.

My point is that you still have a financial interest. If you were told, for 100%, that X card would be worth dramatically more next week, would you buy it now, or later? Let's assume you need X card for the tournament coming up, and that tournament is a month away.

Obviously that's a problem, is a problem that really takes luxchomp down a tier at all? No.

 

[baby mario]

My point is that you still have a financial interest. If you were told, for 100%, that X card would be worth dramatically more next week, would you buy it now, or later? Let's assume you need X card for the tournament coming up, and that tournament is a month away.

You do love taking your hypotheticals to an unrealistic extreme don't you?

If I say 'yes, if I knew 100% (no speculation required!) that a card I want is cheaper this week, I would buy it', does that in fact prove your point that I am deeply embroiled in the financial wheeling and dealing of Pokemon cards and that speculating on the value of Lithographs next format is a totally worthwhile pursuit?

It doesn't really, does it?

You have moved so far away from the original topic and into an imaginary world where I'm afraid I have no wish to follow.

Obviously that's a problem, is a problem that really takes luxchomp down a tier at all? No.

I don't know whether it does or not. Searching out an early Azelf is a big factor in so many games with Luxchomp that I would be leary of running the deck without it. I know for sure that I would build Luxchomp differently as a result.

And as it is (once again) a situation which will stay purely hypothetical (if TPCI stick with their rotation plan), so for all practical purposes this is (another) pointless argument which I feel guilty about prolonging.

 

[pokemandan]

Just to get back on topic..

Going to an Unlimited tournament in September and I know theres a card like the new Alph Lithograph called 'Here Comes Team Rocket' from Team Rocket Set from ages ago. (REF: http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=46058)

This would work the same with Rotom UD as some of you are saying with Alph Lithograph.

And yes, I am running a LuxChomp Variant and Azelf is the only card I'm missing.. :nonono:

Thoughts?

 

[Sabett]

You do love taking your hypotheticals to an unrealistic extreme don't you?

If I say 'yes, if I knew 100% (no speculation required!) that a card I want is cheaper this week, I would buy it', does that in fact prove your point that I am deeply embroiled in the financial wheeling and dealing of Pokemon cards and that speculating on the value of Lithographs next format is a totally worthwhile pursuit?

It doesn't really, does it?

You have moved so far away from the original topic and into an imaginary world where I'm afraid I have no wish to follow.



I don't know whether it does or not. Searching out an early Azelf is a big factor in so many games with Luxchomp that I would be leary of running the deck without it. I know for sure that I would build Luxchomp differently as a result.

And as it is (once again) a situation which will stay purely hypothetical (if TPCI stick with their rotation plan), so for all practical purposes this is (another) pointless argument which I feel guilty about prolonging.

Ah, but they're not unrealistic if someone believes it's a 100%, I should've probably said 99.99%. Also, if you're talking about more than one of my hypothetical example, you should understand by now they're a set up for a bigger explanation. What if it was 99.99%? What if it was 90%? What if it was 80%? 70%? Those aren't too big of leap from 100% for some people. I also never said you were "deeply embroiled in the financial wheeling and dealing of Pokemon cards", but that speculation affects you as well. Come time for next rotation are you going to keep your Luxrays so they can lose more than half their value? I bet you won't, barring you go to worlds or something. That's also not exactly 100% is it?

That's speculation though, isn't it?

I'm proving that speculation does have reward, and is not entirely pointless. Because if that were true, then there's apparently just a bunch of lucky rich people who are all absolutely wrong. It would also mean the entire stock market is a bunch of whims and random guesses. :nonono:

Also, you're the one that said speculation was pointless, any word you say about me being "off topic" is no different from your replies on the subject.

So many games? What is that a figure from an even larger figure? Because I know it's not a percentage, it's true that with a bunch of 1 of's they're going to be prized, but you're not going to need them all the time or even most of the time.

Also, you're the one who brought up the point of Luxchomp being unplayable without azelf. Don't you mean feel guilty about starting? Not "prolonging"?

Just to get back on topic..

Going to an Unlimited tournament in September and I know theres a card like the new Alph Lithograph called 'Here Comes Team Rocket' from Team Rocket Set from ages ago. (REF: http://pokegym.net/gallery/displayimage.php?imageid=46058)

This would work the same with Rotom UD as some of you are saying with Alph Lithograph.

And yes, I am running a LuxChomp Variant and Azelf is the only card I'm missing.. :nonono:

Thoughts?

"Here Comes Team Rocket" was reprinted as a supporter, you have to play it as such in unlimited. (officially)