Do the big tourneys check for counterfeits?
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Aron Figaro
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That does become an interesting matter; the game being played is the same, and it takes time and effort during deck checking or during play. Opponents focusing on that rather than the game are looking for easy penalties, and will often call out a misprinted or damaged card as fake. Personally I do not believe it is the job of tournament organizers.
It really comes down to the same paradigm as software piracy; you can either attack people and lose business, or accept the fact that you'll lose 1% of actual customers and some number of non-customers will use the knockoffs. That's the reality of the industry.
As far as the reality of it goes, I have no idea, because I have very little experience with fake cards. The last time I saw any of those was almost 10 years ago.
It really comes down to the same paradigm as software piracy; you can either attack people and lose business, or accept the fact that you'll lose 1% of actual customers and some number of non-customers will use the knockoffs. That's the reality of the industry.
As far as the reality of it goes, I have no idea, because I have very little experience with fake cards. The last time I saw any of those was almost 10 years ago.
Not always, some of those fake cards are pretty weird.
Also I disagree with both:
And
A player calling out another player for breaking rules is not just looking for easy penalties, they are following the rules. Enforcing those rules are absolutely part of the job Tournament Organizers agree to do.
Chairman Kaga
Active Member
This and this are from a very different game than the one you and I are playing.
This is nowhere near the same as software piracy.
With cards, you have a physical product. A company (like Pokemon) spent money to design and print it. Each counterfeit pack sold is a legitimate pack that wasn't sold. This, unlike software, is a 1:1 correlation. Counterfeits are straight-up theft -- there is a direct and measurable loss to both the producing company and the poor sap that buys the fake cards.
With tournaments being in part a promotional arm for said producing company, I would say that yes, there is a highly vested interest in keeping counterfeit materials out of said tournaments.
OK, those are funny cards and all, but it's getting off the point.
Fakes and counterfeits are expressly prohibited.
It's like competing in the Olympics with steroids in your blood system.
Maybe you could have done as well without them, but they're still going to get you disqualified if they're discovered in the finals.
Whenever I have new kids at an event, I always have their deck checked for fakes because there are just so many out there that parents and grandparents buy at flea markets and such.
Quite often I'll find that a third or more of a new Junior's deck is counterfeit.
If found up front, it can be dealt with by steering them to a theme deck or even lending them a deck.
Fakes and counterfeits are expressly prohibited.
It's like competing in the Olympics with steroids in your blood system.
Maybe you could have done as well without them, but they're still going to get you disqualified if they're discovered in the finals.
Whenever I have new kids at an event, I always have their deck checked for fakes because there are just so many out there that parents and grandparents buy at flea markets and such.
Quite often I'll find that a third or more of a new Junior's deck is counterfeit.
If found up front, it can be dealt with by steering them to a theme deck or even lending them a deck.
ShuckleLVX
Active Member
I think the thread was more focused on counterfeit legal cards, not off-the-wall fakes like those. Theoretically, the game is the same if your Uxie LvX was printed by Pokemon or by a counterfeiter. Legality is another story, but his point is valid.
Let me start by saying I am a staunch supporter of no fake cards.
This, in itself is 100 percent untrue. The same argument has been used for software piracy, music piracy, knock-off handbags, etc.
Just because someone downloads a piece of software for free does not mean they are willing to spend hundreds on the real software if the pirated version was unavailable. The same holds true for Pokemon cards, I have had parents show up with kids at league and when I point out most of their cards are fake and discuss with parents ways to avoid that, I have had the reaction "I will never spend four dollars on a pack, I only buy packs because the discount store has them for a buck a pack." Then, I never see the kid again.
Should decks be checked for fakes? Of course they should be, at any sanctioned event there is no place for counterfeit cards; all the way from worlds down to league.
This, in itself is 100 percent untrue. The same argument has been used for software piracy, music piracy, knock-off handbags, etc.
Just because someone downloads a piece of software for free does not mean they are willing to spend hundreds on the real software if the pirated version was unavailable. The same holds true for Pokemon cards, I have had parents show up with kids at league and when I point out most of their cards are fake and discuss with parents ways to avoid that, I have had the reaction "I will never spend four dollars on a pack, I only buy packs because the discount store has them for a buck a pack." Then, I never see the kid again.
Should decks be checked for fakes? Of course they should be, at any sanctioned event there is no place for counterfeit cards; all the way from worlds down to league.
Aron Figaro
New Member
Scorpidad, I see pretty much exactly the same thing.
PokePop, your analogy is completely wrong. Regardless of how the cards were obtained, all players have access to the same card pool in the rules of Pokemon TCG. Whether he's playing Luxchomp with real or counterfeit cards. Now obviously this does not get into fakes that were never printed - that's a whole other kettle of fish, and something every player and judge should call in ANY remotely serious event.
Kaga, how is that at ALL logical? A fake card is not a real physical card being stolen then magically turned into an "evil card" like your statement implies. That is the meaning of the word theft, and the meaning of a 1:1 correlation in this case, that somehow the counterfeit pack causes a real pack to not be sold. Read Scorpidad's statement and check yours.
PokePop, your analogy is completely wrong. Regardless of how the cards were obtained, all players have access to the same card pool in the rules of Pokemon TCG. Whether he's playing Luxchomp with real or counterfeit cards. Now obviously this does not get into fakes that were never printed - that's a whole other kettle of fish, and something every player and judge should call in ANY remotely serious event.
Kaga, how is that at ALL logical? A fake card is not a real physical card being stolen then magically turned into an "evil card" like your statement implies. That is the meaning of the word theft, and the meaning of a 1:1 correlation in this case, that somehow the counterfeit pack causes a real pack to not be sold. Read Scorpidad's statement and check yours.
At our leagues, players are always using proxies, another form of fake cards, but much more obvious.
Fake cards and proxies are okay for personal use, but don't bring them to league (to earn points) or tournaments.
Use of these cards is evil only if you're trying to pass them off as real, or to make your deck appear league/tournament legal.
Fake cards and proxies are okay for personal use, but don't bring them to league (to earn points) or tournaments.
Use of these cards is evil only if you're trying to pass them off as real, or to make your deck appear league/tournament legal.
Chairman Kaga
Active Member
This is why the argument fails in the digital realm. But we're not talking about the digital realm, are we?
The loss is the same. They could have saved and bought real product, but they bought fake product instead because it was cheaper. The fact that said parent is an idiot and thinks there is such a thing as a free lunch does not change this equation.
I have no idea how you got that out of what I wrote.
An analogy, for both of you:
You make these nice wicker baskets and sell them at local shops for $20.
I start making a very similar basket with cheaper materials and sell it for $5. I also put your name on it so everyone thinks they're getting the same thing, just way cheaper.
It's fraud, as all counterfeiting is. And me selling my cheap basket means they clearly didn't buy yours. Essentially, I just took $20 from you.
Bernie Madoff took billions from people by convincing them to invest in a fraud. He didn't break into their houses and grab stuff off the walls, but it's still theft.
I agree with Stephen (not just because he's got a great first name).:thumb:
If parents and kids are mixing real cards with fake cards, the legal line has been crossed. However, if they are separating their fake cards and making entirely-fake-card decks, opening declaring that they aren't real, then the arguement becomes more ethical and less legal.
If parents and kids are mixing real cards with fake cards, the legal line has been crossed. However, if they are separating their fake cards and making entirely-fake-card decks, opening declaring that they aren't real, then the arguement becomes more ethical and less legal.
ShadowCard
Active Member
I tell anyone I find with fakes to not bring them to league because of the possibility or temptation to trade them to someone who doesn't know they are fake. I don't want them traded with, even if all parties know they are fake, because I don't want parents coming back to me asking why their kid got fake cards at league.
When I am deck checking, I don't actively check for fake cards. Fake cards stand out to me though so I will likely observe them while checking the deck against the list. It's one of those built-in passive checks.
When I am deck checking, I don't actively check for fake cards. Fake cards stand out to me though so I will likely observe them while checking the deck against the list. It's one of those built-in passive checks.
To answer OP's question, I would say yes, they do. But it's just part of deck checking in general (correct number of cards, modified legal, etc). Most players and judges can spot a fake right upon seeing it. The really good ones will get by though, since nobody is going to be doing a light test and the sleeves make it a little harder.
Despite all the newbies I've played against I've only ever seen a handful of fakes at cities, but nothing at the higher level events.
Despite all the newbies I've played against I've only ever seen a handful of fakes at cities, but nothing at the higher level events.
GameStoreGrump
New Member
^ The problem is the funding for running these tournaments come from purchasing the packs. If you don't "Buy 'em all," there won't be any tournaments. Ultimately it's a business. If you don't support that business, it goes away.
ShadowCard
Active Member
It has been said that sale of product does not directly affect OP. It sounds like there's a different arrangement in place than a simple "more sales of packs means OP gets more funding, and less sales means less funding for OP".
Box of Fail
New Member
I disagree with this analogy. There is a limited cardpool in the TCG. Counterfeits don't make you more formidable than you could have been. Steroids actually boost performance; counterfeit cards simply replicate existing cards but cheat OP out of their due for playing in their tournament system. Counterfeits with edited text are a completely different story of course; I'm referring to the kind that is a photocopy of a real card.
Chairman Kaga said:
I hope you're not defending music piracy. Really, do you think most people who torrent songs will buy them? Yeah, some wouldn't have bought them but are more than willing to pirate them; however, isn't that analogous to people buying counterfeit booster packs for $1 but not real ones for $4?
Anyone here denouncing the production of counterfeit cards should also oppose illegal downloads of music. They're really quite similar.
Aron Figaro said:
I completely agree with this. Players who nitpick about fake cards should quit whining. It's like telling someone to reflip a coin that was flipped slightly below shoulder height; it's insulting. Just because the rules allow you to get a cheap advantage doesn't mean you should.
Personally, I don't believe that counterfeits should be allowed at OP-sponsored tournaments (nor should illegally torrented music be allowed). They have a right to demand that people use THEIR product at THEIR tournaments. However, if I found a player accidentally using fake cards, I'd quietly inform him after the match in hopes he would search for a real one before deck check (and if I trusted him, I might lend him the cards), but I wouldn't alert the judges to the situation.
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