Ok so during my provincial tournament we had a 6 round top 8 masters cut. During the last swiss round, one of my friends was 3-2 and his opponent was 4-1 and my friend won making them both 4-2, with neither of them making top cut. So the guy who lost, asked my friend to change the result so that he would be 5-1, thus guarenteeing him top cut, and promises to give him the prizes for w/e place he finishes in. My question is, is this how it goes in competitive tournaments? I've also been asked to scoop against someone who was paired down to me and wonder what are everyone's thoughts on the matter..
Misrepresented Top Cuts
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JandPDS
New Member
No only that but this is a baneable offecne. a local player once did this very thing and he got a 3 months suspension from organized play, And a few years back a players form Mexico lost his worlds invite that he earned the year before by making T4 at worlds for doing this ecaxt same thing.
In short do not ever do this both the player who offers the deal and the player who accepts it can get into trouble for it.
In short do not ever do this both the player who offers the deal and the player who accepts it can get into trouble for it.
sdrawkcab
Forum Moderator
There's two sides to every coin.....
I was playing today sitting at 1-2....where one 4-2 makes the cut....my opponent sits down and says he's going to drop even if he wins that game....He ends up donking me and drops. So I ask him, since he's dropping, and if raitings arent important to him, if he'd let me take the win since I'm still playing in the tournament.
He didn't give me the win, I didn't offer him anything....and didn't really care. But some little things like this get blown out of proportion.
I was playing today sitting at 1-2....where one 4-2 makes the cut....my opponent sits down and says he's going to drop even if he wins that game....He ends up donking me and drops. So I ask him, since he's dropping, and if raitings arent important to him, if he'd let me take the win since I'm still playing in the tournament.
He didn't give me the win, I didn't offer him anything....and didn't really care. But some little things like this get blown out of proportion.
If you don't know what you're talking about, then you shouldn't, my situation was 100% not like this at all =/.
Asking an opponent to concede is legal.
AS LONG AS nothing of value is offered to do so!
By offering prizes to the opponent to concede, that player could indeed get banned from the game for a period of time.
He could have asked for the win, and as long as he offered nothing for it, it would have been fine.
AS LONG AS nothing of value is offered to do so!
By offering prizes to the opponent to concede, that player could indeed get banned from the game for a period of time.
He could have asked for the win, and as long as he offered nothing for it, it would have been fine.
Politoed666
New Member
What if it's... my everlasting love and appreciation?
yoyofsho16
New Member
Disagree by default, it's illegal. And tell them that! You don't want to risk trouble for a win you didn't have anyways.
What about "could you let me win, I really need the points, Ill give you your prizes of cause" or something like that in a final?
what part of 'if nothing of value is offered' in 'pop's post is unclear?
oh, yeah: [insert yet another player rant about the CoL set here]
offering one's prizes for the 'win' is collusion and bribery. and illegal. period.
'mom
meganium45
Active Member
The very offering of the bribe is not only a DQ offense, but a banable offense, as a player at one of my events found out, and this was with the bribe never being accepted!
I believe in winning or losing at the tables, and anything else is team play.
In team play, it is not the skill of one player that matters, it is the skill of the team of players, and any team can push one players well into the top cut. Team play is not allowed. Is it done all the time in such a way that it doesn't get caught? Sure.
Vince
I believe in winning or losing at the tables, and anything else is team play.
In team play, it is not the skill of one player that matters, it is the skill of the team of players, and any team can push one players well into the top cut. Team play is not allowed. Is it done all the time in such a way that it doesn't get caught? Sure.
Vince
Vince,
What is "team play?" Would you include a parent conceding to a son/daughter to be team play?
Unconditional concessions are absolutely legal. You can't discriminately allow a dad to unconditionally concede to his son, but disallow the same among friends.
There might be other reasons to punish "team play," but concessions are not included.
What is "team play?" Would you include a parent conceding to a son/daughter to be team play?
Unconditional concessions are absolutely legal. You can't discriminately allow a dad to unconditionally concede to his son, but disallow the same among friends.
There might be other reasons to punish "team play," but concessions are not included.
meganium45
Active Member
Ah, Steve, the slippery slope of team play.
I would agree that a parent never has to beat a child. (That sounded great, didn't it)
As for the remainder of "team" activity, I will actively discourage "team" behavior, knowing full well I have no power to stop a player from conceding.
There are some teams that push the envelope of trying to get results changed after slips are turned in, and all sorts of other bizarre behavior.
It is not just a pokemon problem. I have heard Yugioh players brag about winning events, with only 2 actual wins the whole time. SCARY.
Vince
I would agree that a parent never has to beat a child. (That sounded great, didn't it)
As for the remainder of "team" activity, I will actively discourage "team" behavior, knowing full well I have no power to stop a player from conceding.
There are some teams that push the envelope of trying to get results changed after slips are turned in, and all sorts of other bizarre behavior.
It is not just a pokemon problem. I have heard Yugioh players brag about winning events, with only 2 actual wins the whole time. SCARY.
Vince
Yugioh events are ran very differently, Points mean almost nothing in the game so everybody just wants the Nats invite which is usually the top 20% of tournament. If one player has their invites its incredibly common to scoop. There is also a lot of colusion in the game. This is defenitly not something we want to get into.
Looking at conceding matches, I have a couple of observations.
The very first tournament I played in was when, on my first league visit with my 5 or 6 year old son, my PTO Susan announced that only if I played we had just enough people for a tourney.
The fourth and final match of the day I was paired against my son. Conceding to him would have taken some pride off his experience, and as unbelievable as it is, I didn't draw even one single energy and my son won handily.
In a couple of years, my son will be old enough to join me in the Masters division. Rather than play out the transparent obviousness of a no energy draw game charade, I would want to scoop - or playing, give the win to my son regardless of the actual result.
I judge tourneys, rarely play, but now imagine that I am playing and am in the final match of the final point awarding battle road of the season, and I am playing a league member that I have watched grow up through the age groups into a fine young man, and knowing the rating invite situation we all know he can likely win an invite but only if he wins then sits out. A loss would force him to either bear the expense of a trip to Ohio/Missouri/Indiana and or run the LCQ Grinder gauntlet to get the invite he can have if I just scoop.
I think of many of the kids from league as almost my own. They have helped me and Charlie in our game, and befriended us outside of the game. If conceding to my son is fine, what about conceding to players who feel almost like my own children?
No prize, gift, or other inducement is offered. The top players know, can in-errantly intuit just how far invites will come down, and where they stand on the list. Is it wrong to scoop to a player from your area on the verge of an invite?
If it is not wrong to scoop to your own child, is it okay to scoop to someone you think of as like your child. If it is okay to scoop to someone you think of as like your child, is it wrong to scoop to someone you consider a friend.
If scooping to friends is considered team play, and is specifically prohibited, do we open up the game to the far less dignified alternative of games where one opponent just couldn't draw an energy?
I know that collusion and bribery are rightly outlawed, but what I am asking people to weigh in on is the gift of a game to a friend for no benefit to the giftee. I have outlined examples, and my thoughts are extensions of the issues raised by Vince and Steve.
I am not opposed to scoops/conceded games. I don't believe that there is a form that needs to be filled out with check boxes identifying approved reasons for a scoop or concession available in our area.
I will always enforce the rules, but rules that can be subverted to make the game itself look stupid are not smart rules.
The very first tournament I played in was when, on my first league visit with my 5 or 6 year old son, my PTO Susan announced that only if I played we had just enough people for a tourney.
The fourth and final match of the day I was paired against my son. Conceding to him would have taken some pride off his experience, and as unbelievable as it is, I didn't draw even one single energy and my son won handily.
In a couple of years, my son will be old enough to join me in the Masters division. Rather than play out the transparent obviousness of a no energy draw game charade, I would want to scoop - or playing, give the win to my son regardless of the actual result.
I judge tourneys, rarely play, but now imagine that I am playing and am in the final match of the final point awarding battle road of the season, and I am playing a league member that I have watched grow up through the age groups into a fine young man, and knowing the rating invite situation we all know he can likely win an invite but only if he wins then sits out. A loss would force him to either bear the expense of a trip to Ohio/Missouri/Indiana and or run the LCQ Grinder gauntlet to get the invite he can have if I just scoop.
I think of many of the kids from league as almost my own. They have helped me and Charlie in our game, and befriended us outside of the game. If conceding to my son is fine, what about conceding to players who feel almost like my own children?
No prize, gift, or other inducement is offered. The top players know, can in-errantly intuit just how far invites will come down, and where they stand on the list. Is it wrong to scoop to a player from your area on the verge of an invite?
If it is not wrong to scoop to your own child, is it okay to scoop to someone you think of as like your child. If it is okay to scoop to someone you think of as like your child, is it wrong to scoop to someone you consider a friend.
If scooping to friends is considered team play, and is specifically prohibited, do we open up the game to the far less dignified alternative of games where one opponent just couldn't draw an energy?
I know that collusion and bribery are rightly outlawed, but what I am asking people to weigh in on is the gift of a game to a friend for no benefit to the giftee. I have outlined examples, and my thoughts are extensions of the issues raised by Vince and Steve.
I am not opposed to scoops/conceded games. I don't believe that there is a form that needs to be filled out with check boxes identifying approved reasons for a scoop or concession available in our area.
I will always enforce the rules, but rules that can be subverted to make the game itself look stupid are not smart rules.
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I've always believed that if you're going to drop, you should concede to your last opponent. There's no reason to stick them with a loss, then leave. That just feels wrong to me. Pretty cheesy move.
I fully understand about the points, but even that doesn't justify for me.
One caveat... if my opponent is being a jerk, I'll try to stick him with a loss.
I fully understand about the points, but even that doesn't justify for me.
One caveat... if my opponent is being a jerk, I'll try to stick him with a loss.
I don't understand your rationale. If it's not about the points, then what IS it about? Tie-breakers? Don't even go there because there are plenty of pros, cons, and what-ifs that absolultely justify how tie-breaker points are scored for opponents who drop.
---------- Post added 03/15/2011 at 04:02 PM ----------
Collusion involves doing something illegal. Unconditional concessions are not illegal, so you can "put the two in the same breath," or in the same paragraph.
---------- Post added 03/15/2011 at 04:23 PM ----------
Perhaps if they added a rule that concessions must be followed by dropping from the tournament, then teams wouldn't use them to advance their cause.
Trying to change results AFTER slips are turned in? That can't happen, right? Not without cause. Years ago, I beat Chris Fulop in a Professor Cup, but we both incorrectly circled the wrong results and turned in the signed result slip. When the next round started, and I noticed the error, I told the head judge, but fully expected the error to stand. Nevertheless, mercy was on my side. The HJ corrected the error, re-paired the round, and ChrisF was an absolute gentleman (he could've petitioned for justice to let the error stand - the rules were on his side - but he didn't).
Anyway, as long as a "team" isn't violating the rules, I don't see a problem. If games should be "won or lost at the table," there wouldn't be a provision for concessions.
BTW, trying to change the match results AFTER the match is over is considered "cheating."
Penalty Guidelines - 7.6.4. Cheating said:
---------- Post added 03/15/2011 at 04:34 PM ----------
Well stated PokeDad. Ditto.
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By points I mean ranking.
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