75 minute Top Cuts

[Ness]

I encourage all Tournament Organizers to do 75-minute Top Cuts at their events. 75-minute 2/3 made for some great matches at the Florida Marathon that would have otherwise been decided by a nearly skillless Sudden Death in Game 3. While I realize 75 minutes is not always possible due to venue restrictions, I encourage Organizers to prioritize this as it can greatly affect the enjoyability of the event.

75-mins is the norm in Florida, one of the largest Pokémon bases in the U.S. These time limits (set by Larry Altavilla and veteran organizer Heidi Craig) received a lot of positive feedback, especially since Heidi & Larry managed to keep events moving smoothly and finish early (with noon start times, too!)

Some facts to keep in mind about 75-minute 2/3 compared to 60 minutes:
-75m Top Cuts will add a maximum of 45 minutes to a City Championship, often even less. It will typically add a maximum of only 30 minutes to Seniors/Juniors, since these divisions often only have enough for Top 4.
-75m Top Cuts will add a maximum of one hour to a State Championship, as they are limited to Top 16. (Possibly 1hr,15m if it is T32 max - I'm not positive.)

Not only is this extra time quite reasonable, but the enjoyment it adds to events makes it well worth it. Remember, these time increases are the maximum additional time. Some Top Cut rounds, usually the Finals (less matches) will end before using all 75 minutes.

I realize Organizers don't have as much fun at these events as players, but those that care about their players enjoying the event should consider these time limits. The reality of Pokémon is that even when both players play at a timely pace, they often cannot finish three games in 60 minutes. In fact, there's often hardly enough time to begin a Game 3.

 

[sdrawkcab]

So THATS why Durrant won.....

 

[ajhawk]

Eh... not a fan. Sudden death is just part of the game. You know as well as anyone Ness that you should plan for this. Also, i'm very curious about thos. I thought 60that minutes was the regulated time. How can an organizer unilaterally decide to run 75over minute rounds without P!P permission (mayne he had it).

Anyway, i think game will go quicker once EXs are released. So in a couple minths it becomea a mute point.
Posted with Mobile style...

 

[Crinus]

If their is going to be 3 games per round within a 60 minute period, then they need to either up the time limit OR

just change the prize format to 4 prizes instead of 6.

 

[LOLZ]

Eh... not a fan. Sudden death is just part of the game. You know as well as anyone Ness that you should plan for this. Also, i'm very curious about thos. I thought 60that minutes was the regulated time. How can an organizer unilaterally decide to run 75over minute rounds without P!P permission (mayne he had it).

Anyway, i think game will go quicker once EXs are released. So in a couple minths it becomea a mute point.
Posted with Mobile style...

21.3. Match Time Limits
Single-game matches should be a minimum of 30 minutes plus 3 turns for Constructed tournaments or 20 minutes plus 3 turns for Limited tournaments.

Best-of-three matches should have a minimum time limit of 45 minutes plus 3 turns, with no maximum time limit. The specific time limit for each round’s matches should be announced by the Tournament Organizer at the outset of the tournament.

Key Word there- Minimum!

Pokemon sets the minimum time limit. Organizers decide the time limit for their events, has long has it is at or above the minimum they have no problem.

30+3 for swiss and 75+3 for top cut seems to be the norm.

 

[Raen]

Eh... not a fan. Sudden death is just part of the game. You know as well as anyone Ness that you should plan for this. Also, i'm very curious about thos. I thought 60that minutes was the regulated time. How can an organizer unilaterally decide to run 75over minute rounds without P!P permission (mayne he had it).

Anyway, i think game will go quicker once EXs are released. So in a couple minths it becomea a mute point.
Posted with Mobile style...

Let me apply your logic to other aspects of the game, hopefully making a point:

Eh... not a fan. Donking is just a part of the game. You should just plan for it.
Eh... not a fan. The first turn rules are just a part of the game. You should just plan for it.
Eh... not a fan. Dropping to preserve rating is just part of the game. You should just plan for it.
Eh... not a fan. Overpowered basics are just part of the game. You should just plan for it.

The last one is arguable, I suppose, but I hope the point is well made; just "dealing with" problems the game has is not constructive. It is, in fact, the worst thing any of us can do. We love this game, and want to see it become better, not just be content with what we have now.

BTW, Ness, I agree that 75 minutes would be much, much better. I'd love that.

 

[z-man]

75 minute cuts really eliminate many of the problems we have with time in cut. 45 minute cuts are a disgrace -- that should be changed to minimum of 60 min. Sudden death is part of the game, but it isn't a fun part of the game. I speak for myself, but I can imagine others would agree, when I say that playing full games is more fun than having to worry about the clock. The extra fifteen minutes really doesn't hurt anyone... and it makes for a more fun, and possibly more competitive event.

Last year, I played Vilegar pretty heavily for cities. I would always do very well in rounds, but when it came to cut, I just couldn't really compete. I had to speed my play up to an obnoxious pace to prevent losing on time. I made misplays as a result, but it was better than losing to the clock. Decks like Vilegar couldn't really do amazingly well in cut because of how much it hated the timing. Decks like that will come back, and I would hope that they are fairly competitive (not limited by time). The extra fifteen minutes might not save decks like this, but that fifteen minutes would certainly help.



As far as I know, most magic events don't have time in their top 8. They usually limit all events to top 8, but they have MANY rounds (another discussion entirely), but it allows the players to play at their own pace. Judges in cut will tell players to hurry up when the players are slow, but there is no rule for time in cut. Wouldn't that be amazing for us?! Our games are VERY different, but if we could avoid time in T8 at nats and worlds, that'd be fantastic. Just a hypothetical... this would certainly add time to those events, but if that time is well accounted for, this would be nice. Imagine having worlds decided by time... that would suck D:

 

[JC_Denton46]

Let me apply your logic to other aspects of the game, hopefully making a point:

Eh... not a fan. Donking is just a part of the game. You should just plan for it.
Eh... not a fan. The first turn rules are just a part of the game. You should just plan for it.
Eh... not a fan. Dropping to preserve rating is just part of the game. You should just plan for it.
Eh... not a fan. Overpowered basics are just part of the game. You should just plan for it.

The last one is arguable, I suppose, but I hope the point is well made; just "dealing with" problems the game has is not constructive. It is, in fact, the worst thing any of us can do. We love this game, and want to see it become better, not just be content with what we have now.

BTW, Ness, I agree that 75 minutes would be much, much better. I'd love that.

100% agree, basically what I was going to say

Last Cities I won a top cut match by taking my sudden death prize turn 1, and I didn't feel like I deserved it at all

I would have much rather played a real game

Kinda sad when you think that was the difference between 4+ points and 0 points...

 

[Cyrus]

So THATS why Durrant won.....

Actually, Durant can complete three "full" games quite easily. Haha.

Anyways, I love, love, love this idea. Back in the 2007 Regional season, Heidi came to judge our tournament. The result was probably some of the best time management we ever enjoyed at one of these events, including the ever-fabled, ever-awesome 75 minute time limit.

 

[supertyranitar]

I'd love to see 75 minutes happen at, say, Nationals and Worlds. It'd be such an improvement over 60 minutes. One of the PTOs of NC/the PTO of SC (my dad) does 90 minutes when he can for top cut, and it's such a great feeling to know that you can actually stop and think, versus having to rush to complete a game.

 

[Ness]

90 minute 2/3 would be great for Nats/Worlds (and only Nats/Worlds, imo), and I actually started a separate thread about that months ago, advocating 120m Best 3/5 as the best option, followed by 75m 2/3.

However, if we start getting ahead of ourselves, this thread will end up being counterproductive. It is important to take things step by step. Our first goal should be to expand the concept of 75-minute Top Cut to the many areas of the world that are still doing 60 minute Top Cuts. A simple poll of players will reveal a strong preference and support for 75-min 2/3. (Don't believe me? Try it at one or two events and then ask your player base which time allowance they prefer more.) Again, I understand organizers don't want to be have to run tournaments until 2 AM, but simple math shows that increasing the time limits from 60 to 75 minutes will not cause significant delays in events.

We have pleaded (and sometimes it seems like almost fought) for +3 turns, two-day Regionals, a better invite structure and more. Let's never quit trying to improve the game. I hope to see more areas doing 75 minute Top Cut rounds in the near future.

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

I will always agree with longer time limits. Last weekend my top 8, top 4 and finals matches all went to sudden death! The finals actually couldn't even finish two full games, and the result would've been different with more time. Even the world championship final basically had to come down to a coin flip, and could've been different with enough time for a 3rd legitimate game.

I've always accepted that there must be time limits to keep the tournament going, but Jason makes a good point this wouldn't add that much more time to tournaments. All the discussions about time limits or extra turns in swiss were dealing with much larger changes in overall tournament time than this change would.

 

[The Gorn]

Here we go... another 800 post thread in the making.

 

[z-man]

Here we go... another 800 post thread in the making.

At least it isn't as controvercial as declumping. I think a majority of players would support this. Speaking of, perhaps a petition would help. Present it to the "higher ups" at worlds, and see what happens...

 

[iLifeless]

What if people has to do something early next day for example work/school and they topcut?
They have to drop if they want to get to work/school without having (possible) sleep problems.
Anyways, a 75 Minute top for cities sounds a little bit long to me for a small tournament.

 

[InnoceNt]

What if people has to do something early next day for example work/school and they topcut?
They have to drop if they want to get to work/school without having (possible) sleep problems.
Anyways, a 75 Minute top for cities sounds a little bit long to me for a small tournament.

If its a small tourney thats only about 30-45 minutes longer.

 

[TLesky]

As a player and organizer, I would completely agree with moving the time limit to 75 min.
If a venue and attendance allows for it, I would have no problem doing this.

As a counterpoint, I bring these things.

You also have to remember that there are a whole group of things that can and do go wrong that could cause an issue with time.
Example....if it is planned to run a certain number of rounds and longer top cuts, and then a computer breakdown happens. Now the TO may have time constraints with the venue and may have to change the time of top cut matches to get out of the place on time. How are players going to react??

Another issue we have had. Players coming to tournaments with deck lists that are not correct, or perhaps not legible. Now this surprisingly happens more with regular players. Point is that time constraints can be forced on a tournament by the players themselves. Without these types of delays, the longer top cut is more likely. I mean,should it really fall on the organizer to deal with a ton of deck list issues, get behind on starting, and then take pressure from players to run longer top cuts? If the players had taken responsibility to ensure their lists are easier for the staff to take care of, there would be more time at the end of the event for longer cuts.

Keeping staff the extra time isnt always as easy as it seems; at least for some of the staff. Many of the judges, computer staff, helpers, etc that we have are parents. Likely they will have younger players in the tournament, and when little "joey" ort "Sally" get done, is it right for us to tell the staff that they cant leave and their kids will have to sit and wait while they work?. Now I know that this doesnt apply for all staff, and that most of the time we can get by with far fewer numbers, but there are conflicts that we have to deal with.

I know that some of these examples are a bit extreme, and that most of them arent happening all that often. I also know that us as organizers can do and must do things to make things as enjoyable for the players as we can. We can all do more to improve. But Hopefully players will understand that we have to plan for things to go wrong, and that sometimes we only go to 60 min top cuts so we have a cushion of time in case these things happen. Also, hoopefully those of you that dont have kids will understand this. There are families that will have issues with the longer time these top cuts would cause. If dad makes the top cut and junior is done, what does junior do while waiting for dad?

Again, please understand that I am not arguing against the longer top cuts. I just wanted to provide some alternative point of view that gives some insight as to why some of us dont do this already.
Thanks for reading:thumb:

 

[bullados]

There's also the standard venue time issues. One of my venues is only open 9-6 during tournament days. If I get anything close to capacity on that venue, I'm searching for alternative Masters Top 2 spots, even with 60 minute tops. 75 would probably push me out of an otherwise good venue.

I agree that 45 2/3 is silly for Single Elim play, where the goal would generally be to have at least 2 reasonable games. 60 is borderline, but appropriate for most circumstances. 75 would be a dream for many lower level TOs.

 

[Raen]

To the above two posts, I don't think any of us are trying to say we ALWAYS need 75 minute cuts, but that we would like them when time permits.

At very least, I understand that there can be tight time schedules, especially with certain venues. Still, It would be nice if more TOs tried to make 75 minute cuts happen whenever possible. From my experience, most just do 60 no matter what.

 

[Ness]

I think 75 mins should always be used unless a venue allowing it could not be found. (And let's be realistic, how often is 45m going to make or break which venue is chosen?)

75 mins isn't really a luxury, but rather necessary to consistently host legitimate Best 2/3 matches. I applaud the TOs (such as Heidi Craig and Larry Altavilla) that do 75 mins for their top cuts. Your dedication to your players is appreciated. I hope others will follow in your footsteps.