Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Giving credit where credit is due. To Chris Fulop and Pokemon USA

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Personally, I think the CP system as it is now is less fair than the ELO rating was, for two reasons that already have been mentioned - event size and top cut bubbling.

However, these issues can be fixed, there have been a lot of good suggestions on the 'Gym and I'm sure TPCi is reading them. The already stated that it's a kind of 'first try', and as such, it's still flawy this season.

But in general, it's a good approach, since it benefits players who do well at a lot of tournaments before those who only play States and higher events. It also gives players a feeling that attending a tournament or playing a tournament till the end can't be punished, like it was with pure ELO. This is very important to know imo. If the two major issues are fixed next season, we'll have a really good invitation system.
 
I have to agree with Shadow Guard here. This is a good summary of this whole thing.

I would like to see something like Bullados proposed, e.g. your score for a tournament is
(Swiss points + Top Cut points) X (Event multiplier)

Swiss points would be determined by the number of games you played and won within your age group. I like that 50%-rule, so if you play 7 games within your age group and play 5-2, you gain 1.5 Swiss points (7 x 50% = 3.5). Of course, your byes and out of agegroup games would not count.

For each match you win in Top Cut, you receive a Bonus point.

Event multiplier would then be something like K-value, so that Regionals would have a bigger event multiplier than Battle Roads which would have 1.

Add the Best finish limits to it and there you go.

I have good hope that the fine folks at TPCi will play around with different systems with this year´s data to improve on the system.
 
Are you trolling? Why does someone in a secluded area DESERVE an invite? If you're playing 3 round tournaments all year why do you deserve to go to Hawaii?

This system is flawed. Really flawed. Good areas are going to get less invites because if you win a cities with 20 people it's the same as me winning a cities with 80.

ELO made sense. Having a lot of people at a tournament always makes things more challenging, but at least they'd give us more rounds, aka more opportunities to get points.

This system is just unfair to anyone with actual competition. Bring ELO back

Nobody plays 3 round tournaments all year. I get 5-6 round tournaments for cities and would need luck to get an invite under Elo but with CP i can get an invite without luck and just solid play.

Would you still play this game if you top cut every tourney all year then miss worlds cuz you bubble regs? Thats our situation under Elo back then. The only way to make elo work is proportional region invites (give each region X invites based on attendance)
Since they didnt want to do that, the cp system is a great plan B.
Posted with Mobile style...
 
adding more inflation to a system that is inherently inflationary is unlikely to produce a fairer system. It is much more likely to exagerate differences.

CPs

- who you play does not matter
- how hard the opposition are does not mater
- where you finish matters.
- how many events you can attend matters. (with caps to somewhat limit the inflation)


Making big events more valuable under CP than small events will do nothing to increase attendance at the smaller events. Will do nothing to encourage new stores to run events. It will probably guarantee their demise.

The primary benefit of the CP system is that it provides a reason for stores to enter into Pokemon OP. The pure-reward inflationary nature of the CP system should be making players ask their local store to run events for the players.

===
elo could have been fixed. But if it wasn't understood before then the fixes would not be understood either. One thing that the hike in attendances is suggesting is that elo was not understood.
 
City Championships have way too high of a reward. Someone who won a 6 round top 8 city got the same amount of points as someone else who got 3rd/4th at a TWO DAY regional championship??? That doesnt seem fair to me...

I propose that they use an ELO-like system for the championship points. Lower your CP gain after every city you've won.
Or even putting kicked into the initial CP point system where bigger events have a better reward. People will complain about "oh my area cant get enough people" but you have to travel in this system anyway, so just make your traveling worth it.
 
City Championships have way too high of a reward. Someone who won a 6 round top 8 city got the same amount of points as someone else who got 3rd/4th at a TWO DAY regional championship??? That doesnt seem fair to me...
It's not a matter of City Championships or Regional Championship. Events of one single kind can have extremely different sizes.

In Austria, there are tournaments with 10 masters and and even fewer seniors and juniors sanctioned as "Regional Championships". The winner gets exactly the same amount of CP as the winner of events such as the European Challenge Cup or two-day US Regionals. A City Championship in my region that's twice the size of an Austrian "Regionals" is considered small here. Wouldn't it be unfair if we got even less than now?

You can't give CP by just looking at the kind of the event. Especially for Europe, you have to implement as system that takes the actual size.
 
It's not a matter of City Championships or Regional Championship. Events of one single kind can have extremely different sizes.

In Austria, there are tournaments with 10 masters and and even fewer seniors and juniors sanctioned as "Regional Championships". The winner gets exactly the same amount of CP as the winner of events such as the European Challenge Cup or two-day US Regionals. A City Championship in my region that's twice the size of an Austrian "Regionals" is considered small here. Wouldn't it be unfair if we got even less than now?

You can't give CP by just looking at the kind of the event. Especially for Europe, you have to implement as system that takes the actual size.

Honestly, the most fair answer is to give fair proportion of invites based on region and attendance in region instead of labelling all of us as "North America" or all of you as "Europe" despite drastically different attendance rates.

For example, for NA, say we get 64 invites total to distribute.
Split the area into 6 regions and give invites based on attendance:
Southwest (Cali, Texas, Nevada etc.) gets 17 invites
Southeast (Florida, Carolina, Louisiana, Georgia etc.) gets 15 invites
Northeast (NY, Pennsylvania, etc) gets 14 invites
Northwest (Washington, Oregon, etc) gets 12 invites
Western Canada gets 2 invites
Eastern Canada gets 4 invites

Changes every year based on attendance number changes. Doesn't matter what point system is used for this, the best players in each region will have a legit shot at worlds.
 
Honestly, the most fair answer is to give fair proportion of invites based on region and attendance in region instead of labelling all of us as "North America" or all of you as "Europe" despite drastically different attendance rates.

For example, for NA, say we get 64 invites total to distribute.
Split the area into 6 regions and give invites based on attendance:
Southwest (Cali, Texas, Nevada etc.) gets 17 invites
Southeast (Florida, Carolina, Louisiana, Georgia etc.) gets 15 invites
Northeast (NY, Pennsylvania, etc) gets 14 invites
Northwest (Washington, Oregon, etc) gets 12 invites
Western Canada gets 2 invites
Eastern Canada gets 4 invites

Changes every year based on attendance number changes. Doesn't matter what point system is used for this, the best players in each region will have a legit shot at worlds.

Illinois, Missouri, Indiana, etc. would like a word with you.
 
I would think the "North America" geographic division is so large is because it's factoring in people who travel within that boundary to compete with other players. If divided by region instead, would it be fair for a Louisiana player to venture into Texas to participate in some of their tournaments? Arguably they're potentially taking away wins/points from Texas players who are already fighting against the large California player base for a common set of invites.

If there's a problem here, I don't think it's solved with geography.
 
Illinois, Missouri, Indiana, etc. would like a word with you.

LOL I fail at geography, ok 7 regions with the Midwest being one as well. There would be a way to work this in to make it fair, obviously run by someone who is more researched in American geography :p
 
There would be a way to work this in to make it fair

If you believe so, what do you think of my Louisiana sneaking in to Texas question?

(Because it even scales up to Canadian players sneaking in to US tournaments.)


---------- Post added 01/20/2012 at 11:32 AM ----------

What I'm arguing is that you shouldn't be able to gain so many points from what is considered a small scale event. Right now the projection for earning an invite to Worlds is somewhere around 45 Championship Points; you can get to that with Battle Roads and City Championships alone, and I do think that is a flaw.

If a Master is able take 8 1st place finishes in Battle Roads and 5 1st place finishes in Cities to earn 46 points, arguably isn't this player one of the best 40? What else would you have them do?

At the end of the year we'll be able to look at all the numbers and come to a conclusion, but my initial feeling is that City Championships are the inflated events. On average, I think people will end up earning more points from Cities than from States/Regionals.

Ah, you'd have them finish highly at the SPT and Regional level too. Remember they only have 5 chances at most to do so, where only the best 4 will count. Perhaps they can only attend 3, due to distance and schedule conflicts. Remember, that's two States and a Regional, the most anyone was able to do last year! So if most people are given 3 chances, how many points do you think most good players will walk away with? Personally, I'd say the best players will be fortunate to walk away with 15 points on average.


Looking at the standings as they exist now after Cities:
  • 21 through 40 are separated by only 4 points
  • 11 through 20 are separated by only 2 points
  • 1 through 10 are separated by 8 points

In fact, the next 20 (41 through 60) are only separated by 3 points! Plenty of battling still to be done in the 21 through 60 range, regardless of where these points came from.
 
No, I do not think a player should be able to qualify for Worlds from small scale events alone. Battle Roads and Cities traditionally are the smaller, local level tournaments, and States, Regionals, and Nationals are the bigger events with tougher competition. Yes, there are exceptions where this does not hold true, but this is the norm. So, I don't think you should be able to beat your local competition repeatedly in order to earn an invitation to Worlds; you should have to do well over the course of the whole season or at least do well at some of the other three high tier events.

On average, my guess would be that most good players will take 15-20 points from States and Regionals. On the other hand, these same players have earned 20+ points from Cities alone, many of them earning over 25. I just don't like a system where, for the most part, players will earn more points from City Championships than from States and Regionals combined. Again, there's no way to know for sure until the season is over, so this is mostly guess work, but it seems like a flaw at this point in time.
 
I think i've got to agree w/ that, like I honestly felt like this system was initially designed to minimize the effects of CC's, for example last year you would have people who would go into CC's w/ the intention of doing well at one or two events and then spend the rest of CC's just dropping @ 2-0 etc. This system fixed the "dropping" issue, but it still made CC's extremely inflated, in my opinion. But, I think I'll just mention this-
the top 40 b/4 Regionals was 4 points. After regionals it only went up to 7. The after CC's it went up to 29. So, if we assume that each state and regional weekend has the same impact as the initial weekend that would mean the rough total for your top 4 finishes would be about the 12-18 point range, which is significantly lower than the CC's.
 
So, I don't think you should be able to beat your local competition repeatedly in order to earn an invitation to Worlds; you should have to do well over the course of the whole season or at least do well at some of the other three high tier events.

Thanks for the response! You know what you touched on here? Having the ability to do well in multiple formats. Fall Battle Roads and Fall Regionals were one format, Cities is the next format, States/Provincial/Territory yet another, and finally Spring Battle Roads and Nationals will be the fourth format.

Maybe the invite structure should require someone to perform to a certain level during EACH format throughout the season.
 
^
or another option is having two shorter seasons of CC's, IDK how they'd restructure it, but that could work to a degree as well.
 
After finishing up cities marathons and such as a Pokedad, I wanted to throw in my 2 cents. The CP system is a good way to determine the invite structure, but as expected with any first implementation it could really use some work.

1. I had not thought of the tied Swiss results getting the same CPs before, but this is an idea I really like, especially if they are going to keep just top 2 points for battle roads. This is especially good for the junior tournaments. My son finished 3rd at 3-1 in 3 BRs that had attendance as high as any cities, and got nothing for it because of resistance. It would help alleviate the system demand to attend so many tournaments.

2. The best finish limits are too high across the board. 8 battle roads is simply ridiculous. 4 out of 5 for state-regionals is too high, would prefer 3 of 5. Some would prefer regionals-cities to be split. In that case I would really like to see 1 of 2 for regionals and 2 of 3 for states. Cities need to be cut back to 4 events tops. There are multiple problems caused by this.

First it rewards players in soft geographies too much. There are places with turnout 25% of the more competitive areas. There is no way to catch those players that can pad their numbers with lots of poor turnout battle roads and cities.

Even without the geography issue, it is simply too demanding as is. Among a group of roughly equally talented players with equal decks, it is going to reward the ones with more free time and/or more financial resources to travel who can attend more tournaments. I can say for sure that it has already created too much burden to travel longer distances, buy more hotel rooms, and to spend less time on other valuable family activities. There is no way that we will sustain this year after year. Both the kids and parents will burn out for sure. Finally, it has created a fairly large financial barrier to be competitive that will keep out a lot of new juniors from ever entering the game.

Let's say one's top cut rate is 75% in a very competitive region (which would be a good player obviously), that player will need to attend approximately 24 tournaments to reach his/her number of limits, and he/she would have to attend probably more than 30 to improve lesser finishes with better finishes. This is simply too many tournaments in a year, but it will be necessary because of the CP structure, and it is magnified by regional competitiveness issue. The bottom line is that the "must attend" tournament number really needs to be dropped or it needs to be re-focused around the higher level events.

3. Battle Roads: I would simply like to see BR dropped from CP all together, especially if best finish limits among cities-states-regionals are not reduced. At the very least, it needs significant cut back in best finish limits. The reason for this is three fold. a) it has the most pronounced geography inflation problem, and it is the biggest contributor to inflating the number of must attend tournaments, b) four levels of CP is plenty - cities, states, regionals, nationals - no more is really needed to determine the best players, c) I would like for BRs to return an event where players can test out rogue decks, new engines, deck refinement, new formats or to simply play something for fun, instead of having to bring one's A-game deck because CPs are on the line.

After reading Pooka's points on local competition vs premier events, I am just more convinced that BRs should be dropped from CPs all together, and base the rating on cities, states, regionals and nationals. There is really no good reason to push it so low and put so much demand on number of events attended.
 
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BRs should absolutely have CPs, there is no question in my mind. It's about the only thing that competitive players will travel for as far as prizes for such a small event. I agree, though, that the base level of CP compensation for BRs should be lower than it is for Cities. If you implement a Kicker system for ALL place levels based on attendance, then the BRs will generally have lower CP totals than Cities anyway. But maybe having BRs start out at 1CP and Cities start at 2CPs would make the saturation problem a little bit better.
 
"Looking at the standings as they exist now after Cities:

21 through 40 are separated by only 4 points
11 through 20 are separated by only 2 points
1 through 10 are separated by 8 points"

When you look at the above point spread, BR is simply busted right now. Should invite be determined by whether or not a player can attend 10 or more BR events (especially in a "soft" area where it is easy to rack up points), no way. BR needs a significant cut back in terms of points and limits.

So the only good reason for BR CP is to force attendance?

P!P really needs to listen that forcing attendance at so many events is very short sighted, and right now forced event numbers are far too high. We have many friends who kids play with my sons. Guess how many I have been able to get to attend a tournament after describing the demands, even if I offer to give them my decks, absolutely zero. There is a real problem that has emerged from this system, and I am afraid that those on the opposite side from the players are not seeing it. We are as hard core as it comes, and I can guarantee that we will not be able to do this level of event attendance for more than one year. The kids are going to burn out, and frankly it is just putting too much pressure on parents and kids.

I just do not see why BR needs to be in the mix. Forcing us to drive to as many spring BRs as possible to get that 4-6 point extra kick in the standings is just insanity. It is too much pressure on what should be the lowest level event. Everything right now is structured on how many weekends can you drive hours to attend events, or can you waste even more vacation time (after nationals and maybe a worlds if you are good enough) to attend marathons. The best limit numbers are far too high.
 
If that's your problem, then it's the relative distribution that you dislike, rather than BRs having CPs at all.

Take a look up this thread. Specifically, posts 8 and 20. I outlined a potential CP distribution chart that takes into account both event level (BR, CC, etc.) and event attendance (power-of-2s, though that could be modified). I believe that quite nicely handles your concerns about BRs deciding WC Invites. And, even if it doesn't, all you really have to do is monkey around with the numbers so that the correct balance is struck.
 
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