psychup2034
New Member
Because it's relatively costless to do and it hasn't happened yet. Think about the logic. Think first, then post.
Prize support is disappointing
- Thread starter jeffrey123
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Because it's relatively costless to do and it hasn't happened yet. Think about the logic. Think first, then post.
baby mario
Front Page Article Editor<br><a href="http://pokeg
It seems to me that SD Pokemom is dropping hints that are getting ignored, and that she can't say more than she has already.
umm, maybe it isn't the 'cost' that's the issue?
there can be any number of things that none of us here have any idea of that actually ARE the issue; just because you don't know of them doesn't mean they are not preventing what you want from happening!
there can be any number of things that none of us here have any idea of that actually ARE the issue; just because you don't know of them doesn't mean they are not preventing what you want from happening!
psychup2034
New Member
Exactly. The customers want to know. While you personally cannot give an answer to this issue because you're shackled by your non-disclosure agreement (or because you don't know), please stop telling us not to ask.
Stop attempting to stifle the players' request for transparency from the company to which we are loyal customers.
ask all you want: you don't think that OP/TPCi employees aren't NDA'd as well?
To be fair, you didn't say that. But it's a straw man to sum this entire thread — of which there have been both thoughtful and ignorant posts — and spin it the way you did. I too am tired of this topic. It pops up all the time, but it doesn't make the point any less valid, and it definitely doesn't mean that every player who wants a little something more for their time, money, and effort are as selfish and greedy as your post makes them sound.
Haha, usually SD Pokemom defends P!P, TPCI, PCL, etc. no matter the case, so those hints were hard to pick up on. (just playing with ya Pokemom :thumb
.I definitely did not say it automatically meant that.
All I'm saying is that Top 128 is a greater accomplishment now than it ever has been, getting a trophy of some sort is thus more plausible now than it ever has been. In past years when getting Top 128 wasn't as difficult, asking for a trophy card was a little more demanding. We were like what, 19 players off from hitting 1024? Next year we could theoretically hit that with a possible 10 rounds and top 256. Last year were we in that situation? Perhaps. Five years ago? Not nearly as much. So saying we've ALWAYS had stamped T-X promos for worlds and nothing else is only a meaningful argument in a world where we'll ALWAYS have same amount of players as we've had in the past.
In simpler terms, Top 128 has never deserved such attention. Soon it may be the second round of top cut.
Besides, what other event would there be stamped promos for other than Worlds? Only Nats, at this point. You make it sound as though had we had the opportunity to give out stamped T-X cards at States or Regionals well we would have done those too!
---------- Post added 07/17/2012 at 05:35 PM ----------
So another way to put this would be: "Things that you do not know of may or may not be preventing what you want from happening!"
Which explains nothing.
Mystery Thing
Administrator
.... Wait, what? Relatively cheap + hasn't happened = clearly nobody has thought of it?
.... Wowsers.
This is akin to blaming the assembly line worker who attaches the door handle because your headlights don't work. P!P =/= TPCI, or any other company involved in the decision making process. P!P is a teeny tiny part of TPCI. Their word is not law when it comes to things like this.
This. Just because you all can't figure the puzzle out doesn't make it unsolvable.
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I agree with your logic, but some of us are missing pieces to the puzzle. All I'm seeing is the claim that since prize support has never happened in the past, it will never happen in the future.
psychup2034
New Member
If this is how you feel, then stop taking it personally. No-one's blaming anyone for the lack of prize support. We're just saying that wee feel there should be more prize support, especially when some types of additional prize support (printing promos) is relatively costless.
Other times, you can't figure out the puzzle not because it's unsolvable, but because the person who has the missing piece cannot legally give it to you. :nonono:
Pooka
Master Trainer
If there's anything I've learned from trying to work with the guys from P!P, it's that the chain of command is very, very confusing. I know everyone likes to bash SD PokeMom at any given opportunity, but what she's saying has merit. Even if a solution seems simple, it takes a lot of processing and approvals from several different departments before something finally comes to fruition. I'm sure the guys from P!P would love to give everyone more prizes and implement some of the ideas here, but it's not their call. Discussing these sorts of things so that TPCi can get feedback is the right way to approach it, but trying to put the blame on someone or something won't get us anywhere. Unfortunately, we aren't going to learn how things really work with the higher-ups no matter how much we complain.
...and sometimes due to NDAs etc. that's the best explanation you're going to get...
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
That post you quoted said that it "seems" to be what you're saying - meaning an implication. He thinks that your approach to things implies an attitude from a moderator that isn't conducive to feedback - not necessarily that's what you're saying.
And yeah, the moment I read that entitlement remark, the first thing I thought was what Mr. Nance said: "straw man." The reason is because my earlier post (which you may or may not have been referring to) approached the issue from a relatively comprehensive attitude, and it felt like a tiny sleight. P!P has been paaaaainfully clear as to what its purpose is: marketing the Pokemon brand. Therefore, I approached the argument for more prizes and better support from a marketing angle. Whether or not that kind of argument is successful or even feasible is subject to debate, but no way is it a feeling of "entitlement."
I say this at least once a year, and I'll say it again: players should view their relationship with P!P as a partnership. This entails not believing what you fear; that is, the "gimme gimme gimme" attitude. Still, it also entails recognition that we as players and customers can do better, and should encourage P!P to do better. Players should be reasonable about how they encourage P!P, but they should do it nonetheless.
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That's perfectly fine. You have mentioned the NDA this entire time. The whole reason I felt the need to say something, though, was because you discouraged the proposal of new ideas primarily because they seemed "too simplistic" to be plausible, and secondarily because they may or may not have some establishment within some NDA. Neither one is a very good idea to criticize someone's idea, imo, for reasons I've already explained.. but that's besides the point. As said, the purpose of this discussion should be to provide feedback for what we would like to see, not to discuss why it may or may not happen. If we stray towards the latter, I suppose we enter the territory of NDA's where the discussion must come to a halt... so it's meaningless to take the discussion that way.
umm...the 'simple' came from the dialogue upthread asking japan for permission to make the stamped top-X cards, and the insistence in previous posts that it would be cheap and easy to do so...
MY comments have always been that if the process as stated was really that easy/simple to get permission to have a stamped top-X card made for us nationals it would have been done already...
MY comments have always been that if the process as stated was really that easy/simple to get permission to have a stamped top-X card made for us nationals it would have been done already...
GodBlessAmerica
New Member
Just because we aren't getting answers due to NDA's does not mean we shouldn't discuss the issue. If we discuss it enough, maybe some positive changes will be made.
Shino Bug Master
Front Page News Editor
I have been trying not to post in this warzone of a thread, but i absolutely cannot ignore that horrid comment of
"The purpose of this thread is just like many others that have been posted.
I'm entitled give me give me give me."
I will attempt to translate the more insulting half to somethign that can be worked with, and if i am wrong i call on the poster to point it out. But i read that second line as "Players discussing additional prizes in this thread are doing so selfishly and/or greedily."
Consider though, the nature of greed. Wanting more, often times in endless supply, a thirst for something that will never be quenched. I think that there certainly could be a point reached where no one would complain. I don't hear anyone demanding that scholarships be added to Cities, or scholarships for top 128 at nationals, or anything exceptionally over the top. Most proposed prize support structures throughout here seem within a relative ball park, and there is reason for this. Most of the prize structres are adapted from previous ones that have been set in place. This isn't greed at all when you look at it. It's just trying to get back to somethign we already had. Take the feedback to the Worlds' new prize structure where the prizes were redistributed top heavy. It has recieved generally negative feedback. People want to see the entire "top cut" of these big tournaments being rewarded for their accmplishment. For their title if you will. Rewarded fairly as defined by previously implemented systems, highlighting the presence of a physical reward that a player can show off and say "No see, this one is special. I earned this playing a game I love".
I'll give you an analogy. You go to work. It's paycheck day, and everyone's watching the clock tick away waiting for the crisp check and soothing ride home. Your boss hands you your check and after shedding it's envelope, you find the amount you have recieved is lower than you had expected. You know it's not that you didn't work hard. Your preformance has been consistantly high for years. You follow after your boss and ask the nature of where the money went. He tells you "oh, it went around to other departments". Now, don't take this too literally. There is a huge barrier of acceptance between reducing prizes and reducing paychecks. But consider that at tournaments like Regionals and Nationals, players set aside there time to test, to drive, to find sleeping arrangements, to get the top tier cards, and they earn there way to whatever finish they get. Consistant players can manage to re-reach or surpass milestones they set in previous years. Consider the players who take anywhere from 15 days (4 BRs, 4 Cities, 2 States, 1 Regional and Nationals) to something like 29 days(8 BRs, 6 Cities, 3 States, 3 Regionals and Nationals) to play the game, however many additional hours to test and prepare and earnt heir way to Worlds, only to top cut their as well. That takes dedicated and prowess that as a community we are lead to believe deserves reward. If the same person does this 4 years in a row and recieves less and less for their effort, there is something wrong in my books.
I of course have personal experience with this too. My first Regionals experience, i was a Senior, and not too good at the game. Still, i managed 17th place throughout the day, missing on resistance. I was frustrated but motivated, i had to work my way in that inner circle of "the top cut". And i had to do it at Regionals, the most prestiegous tournament i could afford to get to in the year. The next year roles around and i'm a master now. Comign off a Top 8 at States with my very on Rogue deck, i manage to astound even my wildest dreams and get all the way to Top 4 1-1 and lose on a quad coin flip. I hear that the top 2 get scholarships and i'm determined to reach that great height. I've experienced the top cut, and i'm proud. But i want that taste of cashing a check and telling a confused attendant, "yes i did get that from playing Pokemon." The next year, one of my long time favorite Pokemon, Jumpluff becomes playable right around Regionals and i know that its my year. I prepare twice as hard as the year before and i ascend all the way to the finals, where i ultimately lose, but its hard to care. I got my scholarship. I've found my event of choice and can't expect any more. Next year i re-enter the top 4, my prizes aren't as good, but i don't care. I've had my taste of the prizes and now it's all the thrill of doign well and getting trophies to show my prestiege. I get a medal of course and that's a bit dissapointing. Cities champions get medals, and i feel i worked harder at a higher stakes event. Still, i have two trophies still displayed fondly in my room. Year after i get top 8, losing to a fantastic player. I don't get a trophy or medal, which dissapoints me a bit, but i'm alright. A friend of mine, Graham Olten goes all the way to the finals, and i'm really happy for him. The format is a lot tighter than it was when i got my 2nd place. This year though, there are no scholarships. My friend reached the same heights i did and got a fraction of the rewards, in a harsher enviroment. The guy who bested even my greatest preformance got a fraction of what i got too.
So should we just roll over and pretend like that doesn't affect anything? Say that trying to fix it is an act of inappreciation and outcast those who speak up? We could. There's only so much of what we say that catches the attention of those who can change it. But if we are to give ourselves to lesser glory, i'd at least like some disclosure. Regionals scholarships cut to donate money to cancer research? Sure, i'll shut up and enjoy the extra two regionals i can play in. Money relocated to help our Japanese freinds through their catastrophy and rebuild the player base and the families affected there? Not a hint of remorse on medals and trophies here. But don't strip everything down to packs and CP to demand that players work harder to get to these heights that aren't rewarded.
Now, we are in 2012 people. I understand communication between companies in different countries can't expected to be quite as simple as sending emails across. Or, well it could, but it probably isn't. I recognize that. And if its not in the budget to make something as low-key as stamped promos, is there nothing that can be done for as free as free comes and still gives players something to show off and be appreciated? Have you ever tried to recite the players who top 8'd nationals every year? Or who got top 4 at Worlds. If you've been in the game for a while, there are certainly some names that stand out. But i'd be surprised to see anyone do it easily. I'd like to see some recognition for Nationals and Worlds on the official site. This is Pokemon for Arceus' sake. Pokemon should always have a Hall of Fame. I want to be able to click a page on the offiical Pokemon website honoring the players who got top something or other at these exceptionally limited event. If you can't give them tangible prizes, immortilize them. All it takes is mainteance and deciding what threshold deserves posting. This goes for our VGC brothers too, two Pidgey's with one Rock Throw.
tl;dr: Blah blah blah, i think i'm entitled.
"The purpose of this thread is just like many others that have been posted.
I'm entitled give me give me give me."
I will attempt to translate the more insulting half to somethign that can be worked with, and if i am wrong i call on the poster to point it out. But i read that second line as "Players discussing additional prizes in this thread are doing so selfishly and/or greedily."
Consider though, the nature of greed. Wanting more, often times in endless supply, a thirst for something that will never be quenched. I think that there certainly could be a point reached where no one would complain. I don't hear anyone demanding that scholarships be added to Cities, or scholarships for top 128 at nationals, or anything exceptionally over the top. Most proposed prize support structures throughout here seem within a relative ball park, and there is reason for this. Most of the prize structres are adapted from previous ones that have been set in place. This isn't greed at all when you look at it. It's just trying to get back to somethign we already had. Take the feedback to the Worlds' new prize structure where the prizes were redistributed top heavy. It has recieved generally negative feedback. People want to see the entire "top cut" of these big tournaments being rewarded for their accmplishment. For their title if you will. Rewarded fairly as defined by previously implemented systems, highlighting the presence of a physical reward that a player can show off and say "No see, this one is special. I earned this playing a game I love".
I'll give you an analogy. You go to work. It's paycheck day, and everyone's watching the clock tick away waiting for the crisp check and soothing ride home. Your boss hands you your check and after shedding it's envelope, you find the amount you have recieved is lower than you had expected. You know it's not that you didn't work hard. Your preformance has been consistantly high for years. You follow after your boss and ask the nature of where the money went. He tells you "oh, it went around to other departments". Now, don't take this too literally. There is a huge barrier of acceptance between reducing prizes and reducing paychecks. But consider that at tournaments like Regionals and Nationals, players set aside there time to test, to drive, to find sleeping arrangements, to get the top tier cards, and they earn there way to whatever finish they get. Consistant players can manage to re-reach or surpass milestones they set in previous years. Consider the players who take anywhere from 15 days (4 BRs, 4 Cities, 2 States, 1 Regional and Nationals) to something like 29 days(8 BRs, 6 Cities, 3 States, 3 Regionals and Nationals) to play the game, however many additional hours to test and prepare and earnt heir way to Worlds, only to top cut their as well. That takes dedicated and prowess that as a community we are lead to believe deserves reward. If the same person does this 4 years in a row and recieves less and less for their effort, there is something wrong in my books.
I of course have personal experience with this too. My first Regionals experience, i was a Senior, and not too good at the game. Still, i managed 17th place throughout the day, missing on resistance. I was frustrated but motivated, i had to work my way in that inner circle of "the top cut". And i had to do it at Regionals, the most prestiegous tournament i could afford to get to in the year. The next year roles around and i'm a master now. Comign off a Top 8 at States with my very on Rogue deck, i manage to astound even my wildest dreams and get all the way to Top 4 1-1 and lose on a quad coin flip. I hear that the top 2 get scholarships and i'm determined to reach that great height. I've experienced the top cut, and i'm proud. But i want that taste of cashing a check and telling a confused attendant, "yes i did get that from playing Pokemon." The next year, one of my long time favorite Pokemon, Jumpluff becomes playable right around Regionals and i know that its my year. I prepare twice as hard as the year before and i ascend all the way to the finals, where i ultimately lose, but its hard to care. I got my scholarship. I've found my event of choice and can't expect any more. Next year i re-enter the top 4, my prizes aren't as good, but i don't care. I've had my taste of the prizes and now it's all the thrill of doign well and getting trophies to show my prestiege. I get a medal of course and that's a bit dissapointing. Cities champions get medals, and i feel i worked harder at a higher stakes event. Still, i have two trophies still displayed fondly in my room. Year after i get top 8, losing to a fantastic player. I don't get a trophy or medal, which dissapoints me a bit, but i'm alright. A friend of mine, Graham Olten goes all the way to the finals, and i'm really happy for him. The format is a lot tighter than it was when i got my 2nd place. This year though, there are no scholarships. My friend reached the same heights i did and got a fraction of the rewards, in a harsher enviroment. The guy who bested even my greatest preformance got a fraction of what i got too.
So should we just roll over and pretend like that doesn't affect anything? Say that trying to fix it is an act of inappreciation and outcast those who speak up? We could. There's only so much of what we say that catches the attention of those who can change it. But if we are to give ourselves to lesser glory, i'd at least like some disclosure. Regionals scholarships cut to donate money to cancer research? Sure, i'll shut up and enjoy the extra two regionals i can play in. Money relocated to help our Japanese freinds through their catastrophy and rebuild the player base and the families affected there? Not a hint of remorse on medals and trophies here. But don't strip everything down to packs and CP to demand that players work harder to get to these heights that aren't rewarded.
Now, we are in 2012 people. I understand communication between companies in different countries can't expected to be quite as simple as sending emails across. Or, well it could, but it probably isn't. I recognize that. And if its not in the budget to make something as low-key as stamped promos, is there nothing that can be done for as free as free comes and still gives players something to show off and be appreciated? Have you ever tried to recite the players who top 8'd nationals every year? Or who got top 4 at Worlds. If you've been in the game for a while, there are certainly some names that stand out. But i'd be surprised to see anyone do it easily. I'd like to see some recognition for Nationals and Worlds on the official site. This is Pokemon for Arceus' sake. Pokemon should always have a Hall of Fame. I want to be able to click a page on the offiical Pokemon website honoring the players who got top something or other at these exceptionally limited event. If you can't give them tangible prizes, immortilize them. All it takes is mainteance and deciding what threshold deserves posting. This goes for our VGC brothers too, two Pidgey's with one Rock Throw.
tl;dr: Blah blah blah, i think i'm entitled.
NoPoke
Active Member
first post said:
Not saying that some posters haven't tried to see why this might occur , or to see through the unfortunate obfuscation of NDAs etc. But there is no denying that it is a GIMMEE MORE thread. Players who insist otherwise are probably the same players who are unable to pick up on the several hints. I'd like to see stamped promos too, I'm also under an NDA , but I've not been given a reason as to why they can't occur so I'm as much in the dark as any of you. However when I have asked for specific items in the past the obvious sigh coming from POP when they tell me that I can't have tells me that my simple request is currently not possible and that I'm not the first person to ask.
But NoPoke : you are asking for stamped promos???? Yes I am , situations do change so I'll continue to politely bring up the request without the demands that make it less likely to be considered. After all I'm asking POP to go away and in all likelihood after a some effort give me the "sigh" reply once more.
Complain if you feel you must, but if you are asking for more the very least you can do is be polite about it.
a couple more things to think about re: the 'simplicity' of stamped top X cards as prizes:
first: IF they were made, they almost certainly wouldn't only be made just for US nationals, but for every country with a national championships under OP.
according to the info page here: http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/championship-series/world-championships/invitations/ there are 26 countries with a national championship under P!P in 2012, not including japan.
in fairness, were there to be top X nationals cards made, the top X from ALL those countries would have to be awarded a 'top X' card...where X is a cut number that ALL THOSE COUNTRIES would have in common, INCLUDING the US.
so guess what? since the US was the only country with a top 128, that top 128 would almost certainly NOT get cards!
why, you ask?
...because of the simple fact that a top 128 card would be EVEN MORE RARE than a top 4 card. do the math: top 4 x 3 age groups = 12 cards per nationals x 26 nationals in 2012 = 312 'top 4' stamped cards WORLDWIDE vs. 128 'top 128' cards WORLDWIDE. sorry, not going to happen, folks...
jmho.
first: IF they were made, they almost certainly wouldn't only be made just for US nationals, but for every country with a national championships under OP.
according to the info page here: http://www.pokemon.com/us/play-pokemon/championship-series/world-championships/invitations/ there are 26 countries with a national championship under P!P in 2012, not including japan.
in fairness, were there to be top X nationals cards made, the top X from ALL those countries would have to be awarded a 'top X' card...where X is a cut number that ALL THOSE COUNTRIES would have in common, INCLUDING the US.
so guess what? since the US was the only country with a top 128, that top 128 would almost certainly NOT get cards!
why, you ask?
...because of the simple fact that a top 128 card would be EVEN MORE RARE than a top 4 card. do the math: top 4 x 3 age groups = 12 cards per nationals x 26 nationals in 2012 = 312 'top 4' stamped cards WORLDWIDE vs. 128 'top 128' cards WORLDWIDE. sorry, not going to happen, folks...
jmho.
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