CrystalEyeMonster
New Member
I am a proud senior for a year. I have nothing to say,
Fall Regional Prizes Anounced
- Thread starter Prodigiosus
- Start date
Oaksnewtheory
New Member
*Discrimination -treatment or consideration of, or making a distinction in favor of or against, a person or thing based on the group, class, or category to which that person or thing belongs rather than on individual merit: racial and religious intolerance and discrimination
Pokemon does not tolerate Discrimination of any kind at events. So at what point is it ok to cross that line. The issue is not greed or players demanding more its the fact that they are being treated unfairly when the masters contribute as much and arguably more to the Pokemon community/economy than the jr's and seniors.
Pokemon does not tolerate Discrimination of any kind at events. So at what point is it ok to cross that line. The issue is not greed or players demanding more its the fact that they are being treated unfairly when the masters contribute as much and arguably more to the Pokemon community/economy than the jr's and seniors.
ChaosJim
Member
Days later I'm still recognizing new facets of this.
If it is okay to treat age groups differently, would small entry fees ($5 for States, $10 for Regionals, for sake of argument) be alright?
-We aren't treating everyone equally anyway.
-Based on the logic at play, as Ray said, Masters will simply show up anyway.
I'm not prepared to think, "but charging for Masters will damage the brand" any more than I believe this decision already damages the brand. It damages a sound bite instead of damaging pre-existing customer relationships.
As for the idea that Third-Party competitive events being hosted would help, I only partially agree.
1) I think it would be fantastic for the overall health of the game.
2) I'm pretty sure it would literally increase the value of my cards.
3) It would not restore prizes to Regionals.
4) Success at those events might be profitable, but it would likely never turn into something you could put toward an invitation to play at Worlds, only a plane ticket or hotel room.
If it is okay to treat age groups differently, would small entry fees ($5 for States, $10 for Regionals, for sake of argument) be alright?
-We aren't treating everyone equally anyway.
-Based on the logic at play, as Ray said, Masters will simply show up anyway.
I'm not prepared to think, "but charging for Masters will damage the brand" any more than I believe this decision already damages the brand. It damages a sound bite instead of damaging pre-existing customer relationships.
As for the idea that Third-Party competitive events being hosted would help, I only partially agree.
1) I think it would be fantastic for the overall health of the game.
2) I'm pretty sure it would literally increase the value of my cards.
3) It would not restore prizes to Regionals.
4) Success at those events might be profitable, but it would likely never turn into something you could put toward an invitation to play at Worlds, only a plane ticket or hotel room.
ShadowCard
Active Member
What are the options here, Lawman? Play under a PTO who approves of the division getting less prize support? You're saying that we should continue to shop at a store that the store manager is always belittling to us :nonono:. Eventually, as a customer, one decides to instead go to the store where the staff appreciates them. If it means that the former store closes, that's what happens when you offer bad customer service. A new store comes to take its place.
The answer to your question is "yes, give the PTO the cold shoulder" if they decide they do not wish to represent the division that carries their attendance. How does it hurt/help? Hopefully the attendance shift from that PTO's location to another PTO's location will be a wake-up call that the PTO needs to start being more considerate to the Masters division. If not, just like Prof Clay said, "In the short term if the competitive players decide to quit tomorrow, there would be a new group of players who would fill that void..." the same applies to TOs. If a TO would rather hold onto the opinion that drives Masters away from their event instead of change the opinion, then when that TO stops running events there will be a new TO who will step up to fill that void. If the PTo really does consider the Masters division, it will not go that far.
Why would they stop running events? Juniors and Seniors are the PTO's focus, were there not enough to support continuing the events?
I do not have a problem with my state's PTO.
However, there are PTOs in this thread who think that because Masters who are willing to carpool and room together to travel places would not appreciate the rewards for travelling to the venue. A PTO who doesn't appreciate players making the effort to travel to his/her events should not get used to seeing those players. If players are not satisfied particular PTOs supporting this decision, it is better for those players to travel to an event hosted by a PTO who will appreciate the attendance bump.
I went with what ChaosJim said on that topic.
losjackal, I always enjoy reading your posts. They are a breath of fresh air.
You really hit the nail on the head. TPCi has an open and unapologetic favoritism for the Juniors and Seniors. It is like TPCi joins in with our friends who reply "you still play Pokemon? Isn't that a kids game? how old are you?" but everyone was fine with that because no one could dispute that they had a soft spot for Masters too because the prizes were kept even. Sometimes it was accepted grudgingly because Masters keeps getting bigger and even excellent records began missing prizes while Juniors don't even have to play for their prizes. Every so often, someone will point out how TPCi saved the Masters division, the professor program, and all of organized play, but that was almost 8 years ago. Now it looks as though TPCi has turned its back on the Masters division and decided that it is worth rewarding less. The longer you stay with the game, the less you get--Seniors will continue to play the game after aging up and realizing that you have to play longer and harder for less prizes? Not even increased CPs for the effort.
I started a league when I was 18. I do not know how it happened, but after a few years some of the juniors and seniors wanted to go to tournaments that I had advertised but their parents had weekend jobs and could not arrange it. Their parents looked to me to take their kids to them. Besides me, who still provides rides to those kids who are now Masters, there are parents at my league who carpool 2 or more kids who are not theirs to league each week and even get out to tournaments in other states. That Juniors and Seniors are not as capable of getting carpools and arranging hotel plans is simply not true.
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LionheartEX
Active Member
Capable, but INCREDIBLY less likely than Masters. There are some fantastic parents out there who are happy to organize this or let their kids do this, but the majority of them would not.
psychup2034
New Member
Maybe in Australia, but in the Northeastern United States, I'd say a lot more 18 and under players carpool than the adult players. Juniors/Seniors/young Masters are often limited by their parents' schedules, while adults have more flexibility to drive anywhere they want.
There are also a ton of overprotective parents out there who won't let their kids travel to tournaments without their direct supervision, but from my experiences, those are the minority.
I would not be eligible to the stipends since I live in Mexico, but I wanted to give my opinion on this.
This decision makes absolutely no sense to me. Why? Because the argument for this change is that Juniors and Seniors are more likely to become life-long customers correct?
What does a life-long customer look for? Rewards for their loyalty.
If a Junior or Senior sees BETTER prizes for Masters than for his division, IMO it is more likely for him to keep on playing after he/she is out of the 'Pokemons are cute' phase because of the bigger and better incentives (alongside the enjoyment of the fantastic community of course).
If a Junior or Senior sees WORSE prizes for Masters than for his division, he'll be pumped to play right now but as he/she grows older and moves out of the 'Pokemons are cute' phase, you can still get the enjoyment of the community outside of tournaments, by hanging out with your friends, etc.
What these stipends will do is they might attract newer players in the younger divisions, but I fail to see the logic behind how it will create life-long customers if the rewards for being one are diminished as you stay a customer for long.
This decision makes absolutely no sense to me. Why? Because the argument for this change is that Juniors and Seniors are more likely to become life-long customers correct?
What does a life-long customer look for? Rewards for their loyalty.
If a Junior or Senior sees BETTER prizes for Masters than for his division, IMO it is more likely for him to keep on playing after he/she is out of the 'Pokemons are cute' phase because of the bigger and better incentives (alongside the enjoyment of the fantastic community of course).
If a Junior or Senior sees WORSE prizes for Masters than for his division, he'll be pumped to play right now but as he/she grows older and moves out of the 'Pokemons are cute' phase, you can still get the enjoyment of the community outside of tournaments, by hanging out with your friends, etc.
What these stipends will do is they might attract newer players in the younger divisions, but I fail to see the logic behind how it will create life-long customers if the rewards for being one are diminished as you stay a customer for long.
ShadowCard
Active Member
As Psychup2034 noted, you are not giving parents and league leaders enough credit.
Oaksnewtheory
New Member
I think it is impossible to stereotype who carpools and rooms together as everyone has a different living situation. Also in no way should it affect Pokemon negatively. Carpooling ensures that more people can make it to events so it is only beneficial in the long run. But you cannot accurately dictate who carpools and who does not as it could differ per family, person, and area.
Pokemon does not keep track of how people get to their tournaments or where and how they lodge. It dosnt and should not concern them so long as they get a good number of attendants. At the end of the day that's all Pokemon cares about. The argument was made that if multiple masters win travel stipends and room together it is working the system. I say all the power to them it does not concern the tournament officials the only ones it may concern is the hotel they may be staying at as their are generally limitations to how many guests to a room. You cannot claim your stipend If you do not show up to the event itself which is all they are designed to do. Get you to the larger event, I think trying to argue the methods and stereotypes of people who travel to said events is not constructive to this conversation as it has no definable impact on the topic itself.
Pokemon does not keep track of how people get to their tournaments or where and how they lodge. It dosnt and should not concern them so long as they get a good number of attendants. At the end of the day that's all Pokemon cares about. The argument was made that if multiple masters win travel stipends and room together it is working the system. I say all the power to them it does not concern the tournament officials the only ones it may concern is the hotel they may be staying at as their are generally limitations to how many guests to a room. You cannot claim your stipend If you do not show up to the event itself which is all they are designed to do. Get you to the larger event, I think trying to argue the methods and stereotypes of people who travel to said events is not constructive to this conversation as it has no definable impact on the topic itself.
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losjackal
Technical Administrator
Yes, I believe that is their hope. But not the stipends alone: the overall experience of Organized Play throughout the whole year and making sure they have the right touchpoints and rewards to induce the lifelong fan behavior.
Aren't the twenty-something Masters here lifelong fans because they love to play the game, and the community of people? That's what I keep hearing, probably because they had such positive experiences early on. If Pokémon can form that emotional attachment to the brand and the games, then the cost of marketing to those customers in the long term is less.
psychup2034
New Member
Yes, we love to play the game and we love the community.
We are fans of the game because we had positive experience despite WotC's mismanagement of the game, not because of it.
We will remain lifelong fans despite some of TPCi's questionable decisions, not because of them.
Pooka
Master Trainer
I cannot think of another game where prizes decrease constantly, information is provided too late, and communication between the company and its customers is lacking... yet attendance grows. If that isn't enough to convince you how dedicated the Pokémon community is, I don't know what is. When we first started, there was hope that these things would improve, so we stuck with it. For players just entering the game, though, I don't know what the appeal would be besides the community. If I am an unbiased person looking to try a new game, but all I have to base my decision on is TPCi's track record, I would probably head for the hills and find another game. Overall, that is what scares me; these decisions turn away more players than they draw in. Trust me, I am thankful that I have had the opportunity to play this game and be a part of the community for as long as I have, and I'm putting in as much time as possible to make sure it's still around for the kids after me. But at the end of the day, I just can't help but think how many more people could enjoy the game if some things changed with the guys in charge.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
The community is indeed a huge hook once you get into it. At our first tournament, crowded in a meeting room at the Des Plaines library, Spyfox was the first guy to talk to Xander! Yeah, we didn't stray too far from him that day. But Xander also met Owen B., and Owen was nice enough to give advice on his deck, tell us which cards in our collection were good and bad, and even gave Xander some extra cards he didn't need. All in all, that was a wonderful first day to meet the community of competitive Pokémon players.
As for the rest, ignorance is truly bliss. Let me explain.
My son and I have been playing since late 2009. He is a National Champion, and I am a Professor for two years running a league for that long as well. But up until this thread, I had no knowledge of this WotC maneuver to kill off the 15+ age division! Yet, it still leaves a sour taste in many of your mouths, perhaps rightfully so. I just don't have that polluting my perception of what TPCi is doing now with what I believe with positive intent. That's just how we look at this world differently based on our respective experiences.
Someone new joining the game right now is similarly ignorant. They'll be saying, "What? Two years ago there was only a single Regionals date? How did you all manage to attend all on the same weekend!?" Three Regionals is the norm for them. Battle Roads with no Top Cut is just how they are run. 180 HP Basic Pokémon is part of the game. Invitations based on ELO is a foreign concept. They just see the reality, take it at face value, and decide accordingly for how they will compete this year.
So why is attendance growing? Because you players are sticking with it, meaning the good is outweighing the bad. And it means new kids and families and teens and adults are picking it up because it's a well-designed card game, and the Organized Play is well-designed too. All the information a new competitor needs to start is published. Tournaments are there. Rules are there. Cards are available. A new player doesn't need much else to show up at their first few tournaments and get that initial positive experience.
ShadowCard
Active Member
I definitely agree with your first paragraph.
However, your second paragraph is incorrect. Where people are staying should be concern. If an event is in a location where the only available rooms are 20 minutes out (and longer if those are booked), the players are not going to like that area. Knowing where the players are can stay and are staying is a good piece of planning for an event. Could they be late to your event because the nearest places were far out? Could they roll out of bed and right into your event? Could parking be an issue? An example is when an organizer arranges with a hotel to get a special rate.
Oaksnewtheory
New Member
Yes picking location is key and maybe my point was taken in the wrong way. I did not mean that Pokemon is not concerned on location but just because they hold it in a nice area with plenty of great places to stay and eat, what they are not concerned about or track in any way is where you stay, it could be a nice room, or your car or under a nice cozy bridge what they are concerned about is attendance.
Arguments and assumptions have been made that masters room together/ carpool and so they do not require as much in travel support. It was the specifics after location that I was referring. If players all pile into a room that is not Pokemons concern and should not justify adjusting prize support that way. Justifying that an age devision deserves more or less based on how they travel an room is a weak argument. That was what I was getting at.
Arguments and assumptions have been made that masters room together/ carpool and so they do not require as much in travel support. It was the specifics after location that I was referring. If players all pile into a room that is not Pokemons concern and should not justify adjusting prize support that way. Justifying that an age devision deserves more or less based on how they travel an room is a weak argument. That was what I was getting at.
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ChaosJim
Member
If I'm understanding Pooka's point, he's suggesting that a player trying to make a judgment about how to spend their free time playing a TCG could not pick the PTCG if they wanted the best chance to diminish the cost of their hobby. For many, the prizes simply offset the cost of playing. No one is living the good life off of playing this game competitively.
However, other games have that potential. There is definitely an argument that those games are harder, especially at that rewards level, but for someone who is deciding which game they should shuffle up a deck for, there is no real meaningful difference in how surmountable or insurmountable the task of winning a National Championship is.
Also, how do you internally justify playing a game that gives better prizes to other demographics that you can literally never become a part of? I don't think you can. While not a total white flag on the concept of drawing in new Masters Division players, or converting Masters Division players into life long customers, I find it to be a substantial shrug.
However, other games have that potential. There is definitely an argument that those games are harder, especially at that rewards level, but for someone who is deciding which game they should shuffle up a deck for, there is no real meaningful difference in how surmountable or insurmountable the task of winning a National Championship is.
Also, how do you internally justify playing a game that gives better prizes to other demographics that you can literally never become a part of? I don't think you can. While not a total white flag on the concept of drawing in new Masters Division players, or converting Masters Division players into life long customers, I find it to be a substantial shrug.
losjackal
Technical Administrator
It's a good question, and I think the answer is a personal one for each player. Let's say you're at a county fair, and some association is giving away free scoops of ice cream. You, a college student, go up and get a scoop. A minute later, a child goes up and gets his scoop and the person behind the table gives them additional scoop. (I purposely don't want to paint many details as to why, or what the association is). What is your natural reaction? Do you appreciate your free scoop and go on your way? Or are you thinking that's not fair, where's my extra scoop, this association sucks?
To be clear: you can probably guess what my outlook is, and I'm not going to judge anyone who has the other. I don't know your background. I don't know how much you love ice cream. All I'm saying is the scenario makes sense. It's one way to do it. And you can not like it. Where I think it goes too far is people yelling at the person behind the table for giving the child the additional scoop, making signs to boycott and protest the association, etc.
If you think that's too contrived of an example, let me try to explain some real world scenarios of differentiating based on age. I couldn't think of one that simply awarded varying prizes for free entry to something, so I have to jump to purchasing. My first thought is a kid's meal at a McDonald's, but I know they regularly serve that to adults. A stronger example I thought of is a lift ticket at a ski resort. Adults pay one price, and kids pay less. But that kid still takes up space on the slope, a spot in the chairlift line, etc. And if the kid is a good skier he's going to be skiing the black diamonds just like any adult, if not better. Maybe the slope even had a special downhill ski race for kids, but not for adults. Is that fair that it cost the kid less to be there? To receive a greater benefit than an adult?
Oaksnewtheory
New Member
you have to take in account this is a one time event. Now say this guy gave free scoops every weekend and one day they say to me "hey I know you travel just as far and work hard just to afford to get here...but kids get more now" The issue is this example does not cover many of the aspects I what Is going on right now in Pokemon. Free ice creme is not something I had to buy anything to get. I did not need to purchase the scoop. Just like how I have to buy packs to compete, and arguably more than the average jr/senior if I need those game changing cards (yes you can buy singles) but I have to buy their product just to compete. In order to enter a tournament I need to have 60 cards from the latest set and neccisary energies. Also the set rotates so I have to make sure I own the latest few sets. This is a lot for a free ice creme scoop.
Now I have to compete and in order for hope to achieve a free scoop of ice creme I spend hours upon hours practicing researching collecting and tradeing just to decided on a deck to build that I believe will have what it takes to earn first place and one scoop of ice creme. Finally with luck lookin down upon me I finally get to the top two and I lose. I'm nOt thrilled but I'm happy I made it so far. They give Ice creme to the winner, they pass over me and give ice creme to 8 jr's and seniors... At this point yes I would be upset that I did not receive as much. You can say Pokemon gave double scoops increasing the amount of ice creme the winners got but if they gave single scoops I could have gotten one as well.
This is muh more complicated than a simple free scoop of ice cream
losjackal
Technical Administrator
Yes it is, but the purpose of the simple ice cream example is to illustrate how people may have different natural reactions.
In particular, you added a few extra arguments in your favor for how you view the world:
To expand on the last one, the product Pokémon is selling is packs of 10 cards for $4, and variations thereof. You can buy those cards and the transaction is done. Organized Play is free to you beyond that, and they give you prizes. Yeah, if you want a chance of winning, you need good cards, and need to practice and strategize, but if you just want to play you can stroll in with a $10 starter deck. There is no price of admission to play in the tournament, but of course there is a cost to winning. You still have the choice of deciding whether to invest in those extra cards and practice hours versus what the prizes are.
As long as you can see the two sides, then I have nothing left to say. I'm just offering these examples for people who say "they don't understand."
In particular, you added a few extra arguments in your favor for how you view the world:
- You added in the history of everyone getting one scoop up until now.
- Extra ice cream "from now on" is really only the next 3 times. It remains to be seen what he'll do after that.
- You believe that buying the cards is part of the equation. I believe it isn't.
To expand on the last one, the product Pokémon is selling is packs of 10 cards for $4, and variations thereof. You can buy those cards and the transaction is done. Organized Play is free to you beyond that, and they give you prizes. Yeah, if you want a chance of winning, you need good cards, and need to practice and strategize, but if you just want to play you can stroll in with a $10 starter deck. There is no price of admission to play in the tournament, but of course there is a cost to winning. You still have the choice of deciding whether to invest in those extra cards and practice hours versus what the prizes are.
As long as you can see the two sides, then I have nothing left to say. I'm just offering these examples for people who say "they don't understand."
JWittz
New Member
"Putting prizes in younger players' hands is a positive experience that is most likely to foster continued, long term interest in the game."
This statement is one that continues to bother me. A travel award isn't something that a player can hold. For most Juniors and even Seniors, it isn't even a prize the player will understand. It's a heavy stack of paperwork that a guardian will be filling out. There is no little check to hold, or any real means in which the money itself is something a child will remember. I have never encountered a single junior that has been excited that they might win a travel award.
Is this a prize that is supposed to be recognized by the guardians, allowing them to have more incentive to get their children involved in the game? I just don't see how an increased travel award of all things is the correct way to draw more attendance from the youngest. Why not make the prize extra cards? Some kind of exclusive plush/playmat/deck box/promo card? Maybe give juniors and seniors really nice trophies instead of medals. If your goal is to bring more juniors and seniors in, why not give them something tangible to battle for?
Like others have mentioned before - a travel reward isn't a scholarship. For all Juniors and Seniors, that reward is only going to be something that a guardian can redeem for them in order to help them get to the event. Only the masters division can truly use a travel reward for themselves, because they're the only division old enough to legally use cars and other forms of transportation. Pokemon has made it clear that they want to increase incentive for the youngest age division, but why do that in a type of incentive that has always been most appealing to the Masters division?
This statement is one that continues to bother me. A travel award isn't something that a player can hold. For most Juniors and even Seniors, it isn't even a prize the player will understand. It's a heavy stack of paperwork that a guardian will be filling out. There is no little check to hold, or any real means in which the money itself is something a child will remember. I have never encountered a single junior that has been excited that they might win a travel award.
Is this a prize that is supposed to be recognized by the guardians, allowing them to have more incentive to get their children involved in the game? I just don't see how an increased travel award of all things is the correct way to draw more attendance from the youngest. Why not make the prize extra cards? Some kind of exclusive plush/playmat/deck box/promo card? Maybe give juniors and seniors really nice trophies instead of medals. If your goal is to bring more juniors and seniors in, why not give them something tangible to battle for?
Like others have mentioned before - a travel reward isn't a scholarship. For all Juniors and Seniors, that reward is only going to be something that a guardian can redeem for them in order to help them get to the event. Only the masters division can truly use a travel reward for themselves, because they're the only division old enough to legally use cars and other forms of transportation. Pokemon has made it clear that they want to increase incentive for the youngest age division, but why do that in a type of incentive that has always been most appealing to the Masters division?