Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

More on the topic of "declumping"

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Its not cheating BlisseyRocks. What you do during your search is your business. You can move around cards because the end result is the shuffle, which destroys the information you gained from that search. I shuffle the deck and then offer it to you for the final shuffle and or cut.

In the case of Shaymin, I see nothing wrong with that. I split all my into trainer, energy and pokemon, then I put them into a order in the deck. I put in 1 Pokemon, trainer and then energy. I put my 4 of cards into the 1/4 spot, all my 3 of cards into the 1/3 spot and all my 2 of cards into the 1/2 (between cards number 20 and 40) and all my 1 of in the middle, then I shuffle. My opponents watch me do this. I then do a quick pile shuffle and another riffle or 2 then offer to my opponent.

That makes the deck more random to me in terms of card distribution. The huge different between me and the Shaymin guy is I have no idea where any of my cards are at any given time. Its a disadvantage for me to bring my card order to a new game. I treat every round as if it were round 1 after deck check.

Its the same thing as bringing a old broom from your last house to your new house. Its just something your don't do.
 
vaporeon said:
Its not cheating BlisseyRocks. What you do during your search is your business. You can move around cards because the end result is the shuffle, which destroys the information you gained from that search. I shuffle the deck and then offer it to you for the final shuffle and or cut.

In the case of Shaymin, I see nothing wrong with that. I split all my into trainer, energy and pokemon, then I put them into a order in the deck. I put in 1 Pokemon, trainer and then energy. I put my 4 of cards into the 1/4 spot, all my 3 of cards into the 1/3 spot and all my 2 of cards into the 1/2 (between cards number 20 and 40) and all my 1 of in the middle, then I shuffle. My opponents watch me do this. I then do a quick pile shuffle and another riffle or 2 then offer to my opponent.

That makes the deck more random to me in terms of card distribution. The huge different between me and the Shaymin guy is I have no idea where any of my cards are at any given time. Its a disadvantage for me to bring my card order to a new game. I treat every round as if it were round 1 after deck check.

Its the same thing as bringing a old broom from your last house to your new house. Its just something your don't do.
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I don't even know how to respond to this post...you've left me speechless...you manipulate your deck and judges should definitely have a problem with this. I'm surprised none of your opponents have called you on this. I would.
 
On whether its cheating or not...

7.6.4. Cheating
Players who intentionally commit infractions are looking to gain an unfair advantage over other players at the event. The Head Judge should carefully consider whether an infraction was intentional or not before applying this penalty. If the Head Judge feels that an infraction was unintentional, this penalty should not be applied.
Examples of Unsporting Conduct: Cheating include:
 Drawing extra cards.
 Taking cards from the discard pile and adding them to your hand or deck.
 Offering some form of compensation to an opponent for a concession.
 Altering match results after the conclusion of the match.
 Playing with marked cards.
 Lying to event staff.
 Arbitrarily adjusting the Special Conditions or damage counters put on any Pokémon in
play.
 Use of dubious game actions intended to deceive your opponent into making misplays.
 Attempting to manipulate a random result.
 Stacking your deck.
Recommended Starting Penalty:
Tier 1: Disqualification
Tier 2: Disqualification
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Emphasis mine.

The intent of shuffling is to produce a random result. Whenever you are interfering with that shuffling, whether it be a pile technique or blatant stacking, you are CHEATING.

With all due respect to those who do not do it, but defend it, I would say 99% of the people defending declumping are those who do it.

I have no issue with you shifting a Catcher around midgame. Whatever. I'll just ensure you're aware I've caught it, and I will make sure you don't pull any shenanigans on me.

I DO have an issue with stuff like what Vaporeon outlined. Double Nickel is a GREAT example of why this type of behavior deserves a DQ. First, you are interfering with the randomness of your deck, and second, you are deceiving your opponent into thinking you've "randomized" your deck! ANYBODY who says they are trying to make their deck "more random" needs to check the definition of random.

Random is not even distribution. Random is not clump-free.
Random IS a result with which you have not interfered with in ANY way.

Anybody who "declumps" via Double Nickel or similar method deserves the DQ the rules say they get. I hope you get a nice long ban with it.
 
PMysterious said:
I declump before, during, and after games to make sure I don't dead draw for most of the game. Now, I don't do it as a staking method, its just to keep myself from embarrassing myself.
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You cheat so you don't look bad? Ok, what's your name so I can shuffle your deck every time if I play you?
 
PMysterious said:
I declump before, during, and after games to make sure I don't dead draw for most of the game. Now, I don't do it as a staking method, its just to keep myself from embarrassing myself.
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Say WHAT?!?!

Ugh...Again, the rules say that is grounds for you to be disqualified. It is CHEATING. You are interfering with a random result.
 
King Piplup said:
On whether its cheating or not...



Emphasis mine.

The intent of shuffling is to produce a random result. Whenever you are interfering with that shuffling, whether it be a pile technique or blatant stacking, you are CHEATING.

With all due respect to those who do not do it, but defend it, I would say 99% of the people defending declumping are those who do it.

I have no issue with you shifting a Catcher around midgame. Whatever. I'll just ensure you're aware I've caught it, and I will make sure you don't pull any shenanigans on me.

I DO have an issue with stuff like what Vaporeon outlined. Double Nickel is a GREAT example of why this type of behavior deserves a DQ. First, you are interfering with the randomness of your deck, and second, you are deceiving your opponent into thinking you've "randomized" your deck! ANYBODY who says they are trying to make their deck "more random" needs to check the definition of random.

Random is not even distribution. Random is not clump-free.
Random IS a result with which you have not interfered with in ANY way.

Anybody who "declumps" via Double Nickel or similar method deserves the DQ the rules say they get. I hope you get a nice long ban with it.
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There is nothing wrong with increasing the performance of your deck. It should be standard practice. There is a huge difference in playing stupid and playing smart. I'm not saying to arrange your cards in a way to where you get the best of everything. We as humans can't achieve random but we do the best we can. In a card game where there are many different elements going on, players shuffle styles are different.

I play very inconsistent decks that clumps badly so I have to shuffle my deck that way. There's no problem with that at all because the deck is then shuffled in front of you with the option of you shuffling and cutting.

You all need to stop demonizing a action that has no bearing on the game what so ever.

BlisseyRocks said:
I don't even know how to respond to this post...you've left me speechless...you manipulate your deck and judges should definitely have a problem with this. I'm surprised none of your opponents have called you on this. I would.
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And that judge would look at you like 'so'. Then they would ask you. Did he shuffle and did you shuffle. Shuffling is the end all of it.

King Piplup said:
Say WHAT?!?!

Ugh...Again, the rules say that is grounds for you to be disqualified. It is CHEATING. You are interfering with a random result.
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Again, no one is attempting to manipulate the random results. its like having a pep talk with your deck between rounds. There's no rule that says I can't put my trainers, energy and pokemon into 3 piles and put them into the deck 1 by 1 and then shuffle it. After all, we all enter the deck that way. Then when the game starts, I do a pile shuffle and follow it by many riffle shuffles then offer the deck to you so you can do your thing.

I play this game my with and within the rules. Not your way. I'll continue to declump.
 
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vaporeon, no one cares what is "more random" to you. The rules are against manipulating the order of your deck. You are doing exactly that. Manipulating is not limited to putting things in a certain order, deck stacking is not limited to trying to draw into a certain card, it can also be trying not to draw into a certain card or certain couple of cards.

Also, stop the constant comparing this to checking to see what's prized. There is no rule that explicitly bans this (unlike "manipulating the order of your deck), and can be considered part of "search your deck".

Also for everyone saying "just shuffle their deck", it's not easy to shuffle away a deck stacking. Not everyone can riffle shuffle (I know a lot of Juniors and Seniors probably can't), and then a lot of people can't riffle shuffle and guarantee that the sleeves and cards remain in the shape they're in (I know I can't). Do you really want people to pile shuffle your deck every time you declump? Because overhand isn't going to do the trick. Try making a pile of cards numbered 1 through 60 and overhand shuffling, then see how much the order of the deck was changed.
 
vaporeon said:
There is nothing wrong with increasing the performance of your deck. It should be standard practice. There is a huge difference in playing stupid and playing smart. I'm not saying to arrange your cards in a way to where you get the best of everything. We as humans can't achieve random but we do the best we can. In a card game where there are many different elements going on, players shuffle styles are different.

I play very inconsistent decks that clumps badly so I have to shuffle my deck that way. There's no problem with that at all because the deck is then shuffled in front of you with the option of you shuffling and cutting.

You all need to stop demonizing a action that has no bearing on the game what so ever.



And that judge would look at you like 'so'. Then they would ask you. Did he shuffle and did you shuffle. Shuffling is the end all of it.



Again, no one is attempting to manipulate the random results. its like having a pep talk with your deck between rounds. There's no rule that says I can't put my trainers, energy and pokemon into 3 piles and put them into the deck 1 by 1 and then shuffle it. After all, we all enter the deck that way. Then when the game starts, I do a pile shuffle and follow it by many riffle shuffles then offer the deck to you so you can do your thing.

I play this game my with and within the rules. Not your way. I'll continue to declump.
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According to the rules which were posted above you, they SHOULD be disqualifying you for manipulating your deck. If someone does this to me at a tournament i will take action as there is CLEARLY a rule against it.

The rules don't state that i cant shuffle your deck to make half your deck up side down, but you dont see me doing that do you?
 
Mekkah said:
vaporeon, no one cares what is "more random" to you. The rules are against manipulating the order of your deck. You are doing exactly that. Manipulating is not limited to putting things in a certain order, deck stacking is not limited to trying to draw into a certain card, it can also be trying not to draw into a certain card or certain couple of cards.

Also, stop the constant comparing this to checking to see what's prized. There is no rule that explicitly bans this (unlike "manipulating the order of your deck), and can be considered part of "search your deck".

Also for everyone saying "just shuffle their deck", it's not easy to shuffle away a deck stacking. Not everyone can riffle shuffle (I know a lot of Juniors and Seniors probably can't), and then a lot of people can't riffle shuffle and guarantee that the sleeves and cards remain in the shape they're in (I know I can't). Do you really want people to pile shuffle your deck every time you declump? Because overhand isn't going to do the trick. Try making a pile of cards numbered 1 through 60 and overhand shuffling, then see how much the order of the deck was changed.
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Then stop saying we stack out deck. I can make the same argument that checking for prize cards effectively take 2-3 minutes off the time clock, which I 'could' say is stalling. It does not matter what you say because it does not take that long to search for a Pokemon with 90 HP. I'd also be justified in saying that because it a action I do not take. There is however a rule against slow play and stalling, which I could say you're doing when you 'look to see whats prized'.

Do you see how silly that argument is? You can declump, just like I can check for prize cards. I declump because it helps my deck perform better. I'm not like you who plays 4 of everything to where your plays are easy. There is nothing wrong with playing the game the right way.

I'm sure it says it somewhere in that book you all love linking to. Do what you can to win as long as its with in the rules.

BlisseyRocks said:
According to the rules which were posted above you, they SHOULD be disqualifying you for manipulating your deck. If someone does this to me at a tournament i will take action as there is CLEARLY a rule against it.

The rules don't state that i cant shuffle your deck to make half your deck up side down, but you dont see me doing that do you?
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Prove that it give a unfair advantage.
 
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vaporeon said:
Prove that it give a unfair advantage.
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When you rearrange the order of the cards, you are consciously getting the "feeling" of being safe of those cards not being in the same order after your shuffle. And statistically, when you shuffle-the odds of that card being where it would have been if you shuffled it in the spot was in before are worse. When you DECREASE the odds of something happening when you shuffle your deck-you are manipulating your deck. When you manipulate your deck-you are cheating. When you are cheating-you are disqualified. When you are disqualified for doing something you did to "feel safe"-you feel dumb.
 
So a permutation produces a different mapping when I move a few cards around before carrying it out? I don't think so! The point of a shuffle is to permute the cards such that you have no knowledge of where they are.

An inadequate shuffle will preserve more of the original arrangement but to say that it will decrease the odds of something makes no sense without specifying what that something is.
 
BlisseyRocks said:
When you rearrange the order of the cards, you are consciously getting the "feeling" of being safe of those cards not being in the same order after your shuffle. And statistically, when you shuffle-the odds of that card being where it would have been if you shuffled it in the spot was in before are worse. When you DECREASE the odds of something happening when you shuffle your deck-you are manipulating your deck. When you manipulate your deck-you are cheating. When you are cheating-you are disqualified. When you are disqualified for doing something you did to "feel safe"-you feel dumb.
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So, whats wrong with feeling safe? Are you a religious person? Religion give its members a 'safe' feeling while other say its a scam. Declumping=Religion and you against it=Atheist

I don't care about statistics because they don't apply here. We are not computers. We can say there is a x chance of this happening because we all shuffle differently. My average card between card shuffle is about 3 cards per stack. Another may be 5 and another may do it perfectly. Not every one use the same shuffle methods. My friend does a shuffle where it is basely 15 to 20 cards per stack.

The thing is no one cares. How may of you even pay attention to the order of the cards in your deck? If YOU choose to not declump, then fine but don't call those who do cheaters. We all 'cheat' in our own ways and no one seems to care about that when its done on a large scale. I mean net decking.

A large amount or tournaments have them. A tournament to me is when all players that their own skill and their own creative genius and put it against their opponents skill and genius. The player who made the best deck should win, not who could copy the best deck. I work on my own rogues for months, never having a finalized list because its always a work in progress.

Why would that be a form of cheating? It skews the results of the tournament as a whole, taking the win from those who can make creative decks and play them well. I feel cheated every time I play against one because I put the time into testing and building while you just go online and copy what wins. That to me is considered plagiarism. You as a player are the test taker and the tournament is the test. You as the test taker went in with the answer key while I had to study. You get the same results I can get without all the hard work.

Thats a very harsh thing for me to say but if me declumping is cheating then net decker are as well.
 
Sorry but the statistics do matter. The statistics in this thread are quite poor as posters try to prove their own personal beliefs regardless of what happens in reality.
 
vaporeon said:
Why would that be a form of cheating? It skews the results of the tournament as a whole, taking the win from those who can make creative decks and play them well. I feel cheated every time I play against one because I put the time into testing and building while you just go online and copy what wins. That to me is considered plagiarism. You as a player are the test taker and the tournament is the test. You as the test taker went in with the answer key while I had to study. You get the same results I can get without all the hard work.

Thats a very harsh thing for me to say but if me declumping is cheating then net decker are as well.
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So what you are saying is that if players are test takers and a tournament is the test. Then net decking is like reading a review of the test before taking it and declumping is reading it while taking the test? ........

Sounds legit.
 
Me: I'll play level ball
*searches deck. Puts Tynamo in front of deck*
Thoughts to myself: "nah i think i want the eel"
*puts eel on top of deck*
Thoughts to self: "wait....maybe the other tynamo"
*puts different tynamo in front of deck*
*pulls Tynamo out revealing it and proceeds to shuffle my deck*
Opponent: sir you're cheating
Me: whuuuuuuuuuuuut?


Essentially this is all I'm getting out of this thread.
 
mudkipmaster said:
Me: I'll play level ball
*searches deck. Puts Tynamo in front of deck*
Thoughts to myself: "nah i think i want the eel"
*puts eel on top of deck*
Thoughts to self: "wait....maybe the other tynamo"
*puts different tynamo in front of deck*
*pulls Tynamo out revealing it and proceeds to shuffle my deck*
Opponent: sir you're cheating
Me: whuuuuuuuuuuuut?


Essentially this is all I'm getting out of this thread.
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You would be right to assume that.
 
BlisseyRocks said:
So far everyone besides losjackal who defends declumping admit they declump but dont understand it as cheating. Vaporeon i think see's that he is strengthening his odds, but if that's the case you are cheating!
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Um... no. I'm one of the defenders of declumping, and I explicitly said I do not declump, as I view it as an irrelevant practice, but I still defend the ability to do it, as I view it as a way to set yourself at ease. It's like when a person with OCD rearranges something. It's ultimately pointless, but it makes them feel better.

On the subject of manipulating a random event, I do not believe that declumping has enough of an influence to be a problem, no more than an additional shuffle.

NoPoke said:
Sorry but the statistics do matter. The statistics in this thread are quite poor as posters try to prove their own personal beliefs regardless of what happens in reality.
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I'm gonna have to agree here. A lot of this comes down to gut feelings IMO, which in turn boils down to a 'he said, she said,' type of argument, which is very difficult issue to resolve, as I'm sure all of us are aware.
 
The thing about the rule guidelines is:
1. They are just that guidelines. It takes figuring out what is the intent of a play and player to decide if they committed an action that violates SotG. It's a tough call, but unless you can present a really good case to your opponent stacking their deck it is hard to make a fair ruling. That is where a lot of people I know make the statement "You couldn't pay me enough to be a judge." The fact is without solid evidence to support your claim it is hard to be fair. Judges at an event look at trends across the event or multiple events if the information is available.
2. There are several rules that could be far more enforced that would make unhappy times for you the player. Things like trash at seats. What is and isn't allowed on the table. Your ability to trash talk your opponent. Just a few examples there. While some of these things are just Cautions/Warnings your decision to continue breaking said rules is an opening to have the penalty be escalated at future events.

The statement has been made and I fully agree how are you going to prove the intent of the player? Pointing it out is a good way to try and establish a trend as a judge could note "Opponent felt deck was stacked. Juniper is on top of deck." Next round if the same thing happens that's when suspicion could start picking up. Thing is there has to be a trend or something highly noticeable.

How about those people that have their lucky charm/shirt/plush they bring to matches. Their intent is to be provided with luck from said charm. Without evidence of intent to stack I figure their shuffling mechanic of choice is no different than their lucky charm.

Frankly I would much rather an enforceable policy in place regarding tournament participants who show up with less than desirable personal hygiene. It really is one thing after 7 hours at a regionals to end the day with a little BO. It is a completely different situation for a player to show up with the same BO. As a player there are actions you can take against these people, but as a TO/Judge we have no way to say anything to them. That's my personal issue.
 
I love discussions as much as the next guy, but this thread is getting ridiculous. Shuffling should negate any harm done by declumping. And you can shuffle your opponent's deck too.

The thread should've ended when these two points were brought up earlier.
 
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