More on the topic of "declumping"

[vaporeon]

I know your intent. Your intent is to gain an advantage and it's considered cheating. If you don't get caught or if a judge says it's difficult to determine or if you attempt to shuffle away your advantage that doesn't mean you've cheated any less.

But there is no advantage gain that will affect any game state.

Cheating

"Cheating refers to an immoral way of achieving a goal. It is generally used for the breaking of rules to gain advantage in a competitive situation. Cheating is the getting of reward for ability by dishonest means."

Also, The rules infringed may be explicit, or they may be from an unwritten code of conduct based on morality, ethics or custom, making the identification of cheating a subjective process

You can base cheating based on your own unwritten code of conduct. We we declump or rest our decks, we dont do so to achieve a goal in a immoral way. We also dont break the rules.

 

[mudkipmaster]

Playing Devil's Advocate, I understand this threads about much much more but hear me out:

Statement #1: If I "Declump" 3 Junipers then obviously I'm cheating

Statement #2 If I pull different Tynamos to the front of my deck during a level to decide between them then obviously I'm cheating because I'm "Moving cards in the deck to gain an advantage?".

Statement #3 If I Super Rod 3 Water energy putting them on top of my deck before shuffling then I'm obviously cheating because "I want them clumped?".

So I'm not allowed to do things out of habit? Because obviously you can prove my intent behind moving the Tynamos around right?

 

[signofzeta]

I just don't get it, why is a forum mod, and some Pokemon Professors trying to prove Declumping is OK, but those without the tag are trying so hard to prove declumping is cheating, self not included?

I think these anti declumpers are trying to warp the rules in order to prove they are right. Yeah, that's it. The rules say "No stacking the deck", but they broden it to include intent and attempt to stack, but the rules STRICTLY SAYS no stacking the deck, as in, in order for you to be DQed, your deck MUST BE stacked. You can attempt to stack your deck, but your deck isn't stacked, therefore you weren't stacking your deck. Normally people who stack their deck would automatically break another rule. Attempt to control a random result, something along those lines, hence, why stacking the deck rule is redundant, because you need to break a different rule in order to break this one.

 

[psychup2034]

The rules STRICTLY SAYS no stacking the deck, as in, in order for you to be DQed, your deck MUST BE stacked.

Which it is after you order your deck into Pokemon-Trainer-Energy-Pokemon-Trainer-Energy-etc. as vaporeon admits to doing. You have just proved that vaporeon stacks his deck; congratulations, I've been trying to do it for a day now.

I put my 4 of cards into the 1/4 spot, all my 3 of cards into the 1/3 spot and all my 2 of cards into the 1/2 (between cards number 20 and 40) and all my 1 of in the middle, then I shuffle. My opponents watch me do this. I then do a quick pile shuffle and another riffle or 2 then offer to my opponent.

Splitting his deck into trainer, energy, and Pokemon, and then putting them into a specific order of Pokemon-Trainer-Energy, etc. And then a quick shuffle with a riffle or two. Now that's a stacked deck.

---------- Post added 10/03/2012 at 11:38 PM ----------

I just don't get it, why is a forum mod, and some Pokemon Professors trying to prove Declumping is OK, but those without the tag are trying so hard to prove declumping is cheating, self not included?

Declumping is fine. Stacking is not. There's a line between declumping and stacking that some people's pre-game shuffling habits have clearly crossed.

Quite frankly, the forum mod (vaporeon) is condoning deck stacking. I don't get it why he's doing it either.

baby_mario is a 4-time National Champion. NoPoke is the head judge at most tournaments he judges, and is also one of the most reputable judges in Europe (if not the world). If he says something is without a doubt stacking, I'd listen to him if I weren't an idiot.

 

[Kayle]

Okay to be clear. Its foolish to say that declumping does not give a advantage but its so small its almost non existent.

Does it exist or not?

If it does, it's cheating. If not, don't do it.

That's the best argument against declumping imo. I defend it for the most part because I believe people can do what they want (and you're right, most of the time, you undo that advantage with shuffling) and it's not something you can rule against as a tournament organizer.

As a player, it's shady practice that I don't like to see (LibertyFigter will be happy to hear me take this stance...) and will try to talk you out of, now that I've heard a little more about it. It gives an advantage. That advantage isn't part of the game's intended function, which coin flips ARE. Therefore it is inappropriate and cheating. Therefore, don't do it.

---------- Post added 10/03/2012 at 08:49 PM ----------

I just don't get it, why is a forum mod, and some Pokemon Professors trying to prove Declumping is OK, but those without the tag are trying so hard to prove declumping is cheating, self not included?

You and I were allies 7 pages ago because I used logic and you seemed to like that. But I've switched sides. =/

Logically, there should be no advantage to declumping. Anyone trying to declump to gain an advantage is by definition stacking.

Stacking is reordering your deck with the intent to gain an advantage... this might sound contradictory to a definition I gave later but it isn't really. (I actually didn't formally define stacking earlier, so there. ;P) Declumping is just a further (redundant, rather than directed) randomization, and one that SHOULD be undone by shuffling regardless; But if it isn't, and you've gained an advantage, well, that's inappropriate.

 

[vaporeon]

Its a advantage you don't plan for. You benefit from the junipers not being next to each other but you move them out of habit. I would say that would be a advantage but its so small overall it does not matter. We don't move them with ill will in mind. The deck is then shuffled by both players and then you move on.

 

[Kayle]

It doesn't have to be an advantage you plan for. I never said that. I just said 'advantage'.

There's no great analogy for this but this thread is probably vomiting analogies by now anyway. I just don't understand how you can disagree that one player with an advantage over another is, by definition, unfair.

It's not like deck matchups because that's part of what the game means to test. It's not like coin flips because those are balancing factors of cards. The consistency of your deck is supposed to be part of the challenge of Pokemon. If you're circumventing that challenge, you aren't playing by the rules. That's just how it works.

 

[vaporeon]

psychup2034 you are being way too bias.

It doesn't have to be an advantage you plan for. I never said that. I just said 'advantage'.

There's no great analogy for this but this thread is probably vomiting analogies by now anyway. I just don't understand how you can disagree that one player with an advantage over another is, by definition, unfair.

It's not like deck matchups because that's part of what the game means to test. It's not like coin flips because those are balancing factors of cards. The consistency of your deck is supposed to be part of the challenge of Pokemon. If you're circumventing that challenge, you aren't playing by the rules. That's just how it works.

The advantage is gained but not one that could change the outcome of the game. You all allowed to move cards about your deck. People do it all the time for making choices, putting cards in etc. Flipping cards are part of the game but there are people who can flip heads all the time or can roll evens on a dice. That would also be unfair. They do so to gain that advantage over another player. Consistency is also part of the game but there should be no issue with destroying the information of your deck from the last round into a neutral state.

There's not a advantage gain that would ruin the game state. Stacking and cheating are not going on, by definition of the words. Peoples morality, ethics or custom are getting in the way of this issue.

 

[signofzeta]

Does it exist or not?

If it does, it's cheating. If not, don't do it.

That's the best argument against declumping imo. I defend it for the most part because I believe people can do what they want (and you're right, most of the time, you undo that advantage with shuffling) and it's not something you can rule against as a tournament organizer.

As a player, it's shady practice that I don't like to see (LibertyFigter will be happy to hear me take this stance...) and will try to talk you out of, now that I've heard a little more about it. It gives an advantage. That advantage isn't part of the game's intended function, which coin flips ARE. Therefore it is inappropriate and cheating. Therefore, don't do it.

---------- Post added 10/03/2012 at 08:49 PM ----------



You and I were allies 7 pages ago because I used logic and you seemed to like that. But I've switched sides. =/

Logically, there should be no advantage to declumping. Anyone trying to declump to gain an advantage is by definition stacking.

Stacking is reordering your deck with the intent to gain an advantage... this might sound contradictory to a definition I gave later but it isn't really. (I actually didn't formally define stacking earlier, so there. ;P) Declumping is just a further (redundant, rather than directed) randomization, and one that SHOULD be undone by shuffling regardless; But if it isn't, and you've gained an advantage, well, that's inappropriate.

So stacking is reordering with the INTENT to gain advantage. So you can "stack", and still fail at gaining an advantage, but still get DQed. Ok, I get it now. But it's just so hard to prove and enforce. People can just keep their traps shut, and nobody would notice, which means, you need to wipe out everybody who reorganizes, reorders, or looks through their deck, because they all seem suspicious of stacking. Even so, I think the rule is there to prevent people from gaining confidence boosts from thinking they know where some cards are, but really they don't. To me, no matter how random the deck is, if you stack, and then completely randomize it, you can "feel the stack", and as such, are more optimistic, and make use of every card that comes, no matter what it is, rather than if you don't stack, or you shuffle from a totally clumped deck, with all energies to one side, no matter how random it is, you expect a bad hand, bad draws, and you can't formulate strategies, because you are so pessimistic that you think that whatever you have in your hands stink, and whatever strategy you come up with probably won't work in your mind. If gaining a confidence boost is some sort of advantage, then I guess that doing ANYTHING to gain a confidence boost, no matter how futile it is to give the deck itself an advantage, is considered as cheating as well. This is why I strongly believe the rules should be changed so that people are only caught in the act, and not with the intent. If they intend to stack, but their deck isn't really stacked, then they shouldn't be caught. That's my belief. It makes it more fair, or else we will see a "hey, this won't work, this draw sucks", pessimistic players a lot more than optimistic ones.

I don't remember Vaporeon saying that he does Energy, Trainer, then Pokemon, then Energy, Trainer, then Pokemon in that cycle. If you do Vaporeon, SHAME ON YOU. I only do it the first time, and I feel the need to not do it again, when all my lands are grouped together. I don't really think you need to go that far in order to declump a deck. just move bits here, some there, blah, this there who cares, meh, whatever.

@Vaporeon. I don't think it is necessary to declump after every match. I find it necessary in Magic, if it was a long game, and I played 24 Plains in my mono white deck. Even with my experiment, I grouped a few cards together, and it shows that they eventually split apart provided you do the mash shuffle 12 times, with a sleeved deck. Even the overhand shuffle, the cards sort of split apart. Even so, declumping isn't really stacking, and nor is it cheating, but I really think that you are doing it in order to gain a confidence boost. That's all I can tell.

 

[psychup2034]

psychup2034 you are being way too bias.

I'm not. What you admit to doing is cheating, plain and simple. I compel you to find reputable judge that will tell you that what you do is not cheating:

Let me recap what you do:

• You split your deck "into trainer, energy and Pokemon"
• Then you "put them into a order in the deck"
• You "put in 1 Pokemon, trainer, and then energy"
• You then "put [your] 4 of cards into the 1/4 spot, all [your] 3 of cards into the 1/3 spot, and all [your] 2 of cards into the 1/2 (between cards number 20 and 40), and all [your] 1 of in the middle."
• Finally, you "then do a quick pile shuffle and another riffle or 2 then offer [your deck] to [your] opponent."

The key is that you do a quick pile shuffle and a couple riffles. Moreover, you say do this to gain an "advantage" because you get a "smoother deck." That is cheating, plain and simple. There's no debating that this is cheating.

Seriously, it's embarrassing that a forum moderator is advocating/condoning/defending cheating. It's really, really embarrassing.

 

[Raen]

I have an honest question, although I admit I don't entirely expect honest answers, and I expect I DO know the honest answer, but I'll ask anyway:

Why do you declump in a tournament?

Seriously, why? Is it to help you "shuffle better"? Is it to improve your chances of doing well? Do you think it helps you win?

Or do you just do it out of habit? Or for some other more legitimate reason?

I ask this question with a specific purpose. If it's for any of the "help me do better" reasons, then you are attempting to cheat, even if you shuffle enough. Just because you tried to cheat but thwarted yourself doesn't mean you didn't try to cheat or do something shady. And just because you tried to cheat but your opponent shuffled to stop you doesn't put you in the right either. If you are trying to gain any kind of advantage by declumping you are, quite frankly, cheating.

HOWEVER, if you do it completely innocently, not intending to improve your draws, not intending to "improve" your shuffling (and I think people like this are very, VERY rare), you are not cheating or doing anything that is harmful, per se. HOWEVER, what you ARE doing is making yourself LOOK like you MIGHT be cheating, even if you aren't. I'm sure that isn't intentional, but you ARE doing something that looks at least somewhat shady. It's like, say, not flipping a coin high enough in the air because you are bad at flipping. You may do it innocently, but it can look very shady. Another example would be putting your hands down in your lap while you are holding cards. You may not be doing anything shady, but it LOOKS like you are, and that is a very important thing.

So, at worst, declumping means you are cheating, and at best, declumping makes you look like you might possibly be cheating. Neither of those options sound good to me. So, since declumping with a proper shuffle doesn't help you at all, and declumping without a proper shuffle is cheating, why do it at all? Doesn't seem worth the effort or wasted time to me.

Unless you are stalling. But that's another issue, isn't it?

EDIT: Oh, also, in response to a few other comments I noticed: Cheating without intending to (stacking your deck on "accident", or declumping and not shuffle enough because you don't know better) is still cheating. Not intending to cheat but cheating anyways is still cheating, even if there is no ill intent involved. Saying that you aren't cheating unless you intend to is like saying that punching someone in the face is only assault if you know you shouldn't punch people in the face. That's silly.

And to the whole pokemon professor thing, I am one, but I just don't have the tag here. A LOT of people are like that, btw.

 

[vaporeon]

Again, you with word play. I shuffle my deck thoroughly each time and then pass it to my opponent. Perhaps I should make a video for you. You like putting words in people mouth. You only see it from your point of view and not any other.

This is just something not worth talking about because everyone has their own views on this.

 

[Kayle]

So stacking is reordering with the INTENT to gain advantage. So you can "stack", and still fail at gaining an advantage, but still get DQed. Ok, I get it now. But it's just so hard to prove and enforce.

Yup. That's exactly it.

But if I can civilly convince a declumping player that it's either cheating or pointless, I will.

 

[Raen]

Again, you with word play. I shuffle my deck thoroughly each time and then pass it to my opponent. Perhaps I should make a video for you. You like putting words in people mouth. You only see it from your point of view and not any other.

Words in people's mouths, eh? Let's get some quotes from you here:

"No need to beat around the bush but you would reset your deck for better performance. Same with declumping. You will move those 3 Junipers so you are not put at a disadvantage."

So, you are moving the Junipers with the INTENT of them staying separated? That's cheating, as you are TRYING to influence your draws by ordering your deck.

"Its foolish to say that declumping does not give a advantage but its so small its almost non existent."

If it gives ANY advantage, then you cheated. That's just the rules.

"The same things goes with resetting the deck. Players do it to destroy all information and orders from the last game to start the next game fresh. The only real advantage gained is a better performing deck."

You blatantly admit that your deck WORKS BETTER because you ordered it. THAT. IS. CHEATING.

"You remove clumps so they don't place you at a disadvantage"

Again, you admit your intent to cheat.

"You benefit from the junipers not being next to each other"

Well, that's a true statement, obviously. And it again shows your intent to make your deck "work better", aka cheat.

"The advantage is gained but not one that could change the outcome of the game."

You gained advantage, so you cheated. That's what cheating is, man.

"I find it relatable because it help performance, which is not illegal."

Again, you admit that you order your deck in such a way that it helps you do better. No, you don't know the exact location of any one card, but you DO at least THINK you know that clumps don't exists. That means you are intending for the changes you made to, at least to a small degree, affect the game.

"I watch a lot of games on youtube that could have been better for ether player if any of them declumped their decks or reset their decks between rounds"

Again, you BLATANTLY ADMIT that declumping makes you do better. That's unfair manipulation of the game and cheating.

"The only advantage gained is a smooth playing deck."

The only way a deck should be smooth playing is by proper deck BUILDING, not by ordering your deck before each round.


Anyway, that's all I'll do. I'm sure I could find a lot, lot, lot more. TO CLARIFY, I'm not saying you are trying to cheat. But declumping in the way you do is simply NOT ok. You had the top judge in Europe tell you that. You've had some of the most respected players in the world tell you that. Accept it, please, and STOP doing what you are doing.

 

[signofzeta]

hey, if you do any futile deck manipulation to give yourself a confidence boost, I would say, by your definition, it is cheating. yeah, everybody knows that if you're confident, you perform better. The deck sure as heck didn't change, but you sure did.

@Vaporeon. Just asking, but to be sure, are you declumping to make your draws consistently better, or are you declumping to ensure that your draws doesn't constantly suck match after match. The former is cheating, no doubt about it, the latter is just helping you out to not be at a disadvantage match after match after match, as such, it isn't cheating. I guess any advantage is cheating. You need to gain an advantage to remove a disadvantage, therefore, even removing a handicap is cheating. The rule explicitly states taht any intent at an advantage, and I assume all advantages, is cheating. Therefore, you can be at a huge handicap, a huge disadvantage, and you attempt to manipulate your deck back to a fair, neutral territory, and you would be cheating. Seems stupid to me, and I question why some people don't question the current rules.

Personally, I think "Attempting to manipulate a random result" is a good enough rule to stop any advantage from happening. I don't think an advantage from a confidence boost should be a call for disqualification, because that is all stacking is doing, provided the rule of "not manipulating a random result", or sufficiently shuffling to ensure the stacked deck doesn't remain stacked, is followed. Hence I think the "no stacking the deck" rule isn't well thought out, as it is already taken care of by the "No Attempt at manipulating random result" rule.

I don't understand why some of you don't question some of the rules, and rather, go "rules are rules", and follow them like drones. Sometimes it takes a rebel out there to make the rulemakers figure out that some of the rules are stupid, need clarifying, or are completely redundant and serve no purpose.

Here's an example, and a challenge for you. Take your deck. Break the "no stacking rule", but follow the "do not attempt to manipulate random result" rule. As far as I know, shuffling is a random result, and as such, if you attempt to shuffle so your stacking doesn't get ruined, you are breaking the "do not attempt to manipulate random result" rule.

The no stacking rule is redundant because it can't be broken without breaking another, and even if one can be broken alone, it serves no purpose, as there is no actual advantage from only disobeying the no stacking rule.

I don't know if I should use the word "Square", to describe some people, but that seems to be the word. I'm a square too. I get an anxiety attack every time I break school rules, or the law, and I start feeling bad for days. Good thing I don't play in tournaments, knowing that I might break the rules for every minute thing I do. I don't drink alcohol, or smoke. I'm that much of a freakin square. Even with rules that are dumb, and meant to be broken, I still follow them, and I personally ban my self from any Magic, Pokemon, or Yugioh tournament, knowing that I get a huge heart attack, knowing that I'd probably break a lot of rules without knowing it, or purposely put myself at a disadvantage every time, just so I don't break a single rule. I'm such a square that people think I'm boring. I'd be lying if I said I was a complete square. I do swear, and I do happen to obtain software for free. I just can't seem to tell a lie though. That's impossible for me. I just can't make up lies on the spot.

 

[psychup2034]

hey, if you do any futile deck manipulation to give yourself a confidence boost, I would say, by your definition, it is cheating. yeah, everybody knows that if you're confident, you perform better. The deck sure as heck didn't change, but you sure did.

Except vaporeon admits that his deck manipulation isn't futile and that he's trying to give himself an advantage through stacking. Big difference.

 

[Raen]

hey, if you do any futile deck manipulation to give yourself a confidence boost, I would say, by your definition, it is cheating. yeah, everybody knows that if you're confident, you perform better. The deck sure as heck didn't change, but you sure did.

As I said, if it is ONLY for the confidence boost, you aren't intending to cheat, and you probably AREN'T cheating if the shuffle is enough. BUT, it makes you look like you MIGHT be cheating. Isn't that something you'd like to avoid?

I sure don't want to ever look like I might be cheating.

 

[vaporeon]

@signofzeta Thats what I think declumping is. You do it to remove a disadvantage but do it out of habit. I don't see a confidence boost with it. There's no difference in 'consistent' draws or trying to prevent drawing bad. Its just moving 1 card you notice to another location. Declumping makes me feel better. it's like a OCD thing. I feel like I havr to split them up when I notice them.

You feel better about knowing those cards are not together but that could be treated as a advantage. It depends on who looks at it. Thats what I mean by advantage. Again, I'm allowed to do what I want with my deck when I search it or put cards into it. The thing that matters is the shuffle at the end.

Except vaporeon admits that his deck manipulation isn't futile and that he's trying to give himself an advantage through stacking. Big difference.

I don't admit to anything. There is no point in debating this with you. You are so one-sided on this.

 

[signofzeta]

@signofzeta Thats what I think declumping is. You do it to remove a disadvantage but do it out of habit. I don't see a confidence boost with it. There's no difference in 'consistent' draws or trying to prevent drawing bad. Its just moving 1 card you notice to another location. Declumping makes me feel better. it's like a OCD thing. I feel like I havr to split them up when I notice them.

You feel better about knowing those cards are not together but that could be treated as a advantage. It depends on who looks at it. Thats what I mean by advantage. Again, I'm allowed to do what I want with my deck when I search it or put cards into it. The thing that matters is the shuffle at the end.



I don't admit to anything. There is no point in debating this with you. You are so one-sided on this.

Hence the stupid no stacking rule is stupid. It just invites a bunch of squares who make the game more boring that it really is. I mean, why wouldn't anyone do a ritual to give them more confidence, knowing that what they do doesn't affect the outcome of the game? It makes it more fun to play against the people who play at their best, and people who are confident, rather than those lowly square people who seems to have to follow every rule to the letter, and are happy with bad draws every game in order to not feel like they broke any rules. Those are the boring people to play against.

With magic, I find that playing against someone who has a bad draw, or a bad hand is super boring, not fun. I find it more fun to have a challenge, even if it was from a cheater, just have to beat the odds.

We already have the solution to this problem. suspect someone of stacking, shuffle their deck. Unfortunately, there are too many squares looking to make the game too monotone and boring. Who cares anyway. Because, "It's hip to be a square".

 

[SMP88]

I don't admit to anything. There is no point in debating this with you. You are so one-sided on this.

Did you read raen's post? Those quotes weren't just magically created. All of them you typed up and submitted to this thread. There's nothing to debate because all your quotes paint the picture. There's nothing "one sided" about it.