A Petition to Ban Tropical Beach

[CeNturist]

Let's wait until it's an actual problem, OK?

I fail to understand the logic that suggests complaining about the problems a card could create a month away is helpful.

Let's see every single competitive deck using Beach. Then we can talk bans. Until then, there are alternatives to Beach.

You act like it's not already a problem. It fetches a couple hundred bucks RIGHT NOW. The card has been extremely expensive basically ever since it came out and the argument I'm making could have been made a year and a half ago.

 

[King Piplup]

It's not a problem right now.

There are decks that are perfectly competitive without it.

Until players have literally no other option but to use Beach, it's not the epidemic this thread paints it as.

 

[FirestormXVI]

Tier 1 decks right now are Darkrai / Garbodor, Plasma, Genesect / Virizion, and Blastoise.

The only deck out of those that use Beach is Blastoise. All removing Beach does is make Blastoise unviable (like beginning of Cities 2012 before people discovered how useful Beach was) along with other lower tier decks.

How about you wait to play with the new rules and improve your play with the many decks that cost less than $100 to build rather than petitioning to ban so people can't play Blastoise or Flareon?

Whining for a ban is ridiculous. Doing it based purely on theorymon is just on another level.

 

[PokemonTrader]

WOAH! SLOW DOWN!

Well, tropical beach vacations are fun!
Maybe you don't like sand, but I do
You meet new people on beaches, build sandcastles and frolic in the waves!

In all seriousness, you don't NEED a beach in your deck to win, remember it is a STADIUM card, meaning both people can use it!

 

[CeNturist]

Until players have literally no other option but to use Beach

No, players should be able to have access to reasonably priced cards and shouldn't have their deck choice restricted because a piece of paper that they need THREE copies of costs as much as three tanks of gas. The logic that "until you have no other option, it shouldn't be banned" is inherently terrible; deck choice should be based on performance, not cost. If I want to play Blastoise but have to play Darkrai, then the cost of the cards are obviously negatively affecting the game.

I doubt I'll get an honest answer, but those of you stating otherwise, how many Beach do you have or have access to?

- - - Updated - - -

WOAH! SLOW DOWN!

In all seriousness, you don't NEED a beach in your deck to win, remember it is a STADIUM card, meaning both people can use it!

The player who plays Beach has the advantage of getting to use it first, getting to use it when they want to, and deciding if it gets used at all. It's an obvious competitive advantage that any competitive player is aware of.

- - - Updated - - -

Whining for a ban is ridiculous. Doing it based purely on theorymon is just on another level.

Look at the results from U.S./Canada Nationals and Worlds. If you want something a little more recent, look at the KO. It's not theorymon that Beach gives a competitive edge.
Look at the price of Beach. It's obviously expensive.
You attacking my "theorymon" is a non-argument. Regardless of what you perceive to be theory, a worlds-exclusive card shouldn't be playable.

 

[FirestormXVI]

2013 Canadian National Champion Zach Lesage played Beach in a deck that would not be viable without it.
2013 US National Champion Edmund Kuras played Beach in Gothitelle then got destroyed at Worlds because even though Beach makes it viable, it does terrible in an environment that people are prepared for it.
2013 Junior World Champion Ondřej Kujal played 0 Beach.
2013 Senior World Champion Kaiwen Cabbabe played 0 Beach.
2013 Masters World Champion Jason Klaczynski played 0 Beach.
2013 Klaczynski Open Champion Lex D'Andrea played 0 Beach.

Removing Beach takes away from the list of usable decks. Beach is not required to win a major event.

 

[losjackal]

No, players should be able to have access to reasonably priced cards and shouldn't have their deck choice restricted because a piece of paper that they need THREE copies of costs as much as three tanks of gas. The logic that "until you have no other option, it shouldn't be banned" is inherently terrible; deck choice should be based on performance, not cost. If I want to play Blastoise but have to play Darkrai, then the cost of the cards are obviously negatively affecting the game.

Of course you can still play Blastoise without Tropical Beach. Players are not entitled to have access to every card other players may have. Pokémon doesn't make any kind of promise like that, so your desire for it is just that: your own desire.

I doubt I'll get an honest answer, but those of you stating otherwise, how many Beach do you have or have access to?

We own three. My son got two for competing at Worlds 2011 and 2012, and my wife earned one working as Staff at Worlds 2012. You'd agree that we have earned the right to play with them, yes?

The player who plays Beach has the advantage of getting to use it first, getting to use it when they want to, and deciding if it gets used at all. It's an obvious competitive advantage that any competitive player is aware of.

And on the other side of the table, someone who builds a deck that doesn't require a stadium has a competitive advantage in that they can use those card slots for other things.

Regardless of what you perceive to be theory, a worlds-exclusive card shouldn't be playable.

Clearly that is one opinion, and I hope you can acknowledge that people may have a different opinion. That's why people aren't readily buying the conjecture in your original post that it's a "real impedance to growing organized play".

 

[FirestormXVI]

I own 0 Beach but as I'm active in both my local community and some other Pokemon communities I'm sure I could borrow some if I really, really wanted to. I just haven't needed it for a single deck I've ever played in a tournament.

 

[YoungNes]

Let's face it, the new rules make this card ridiculously good, yet it's ridiculously hard to obtain and expensive. Not only is this bad for players who simply don't have the money for Beach, but it's bad for players who want to get into the game, only to find that a staple is a couple hundred dollars for ONE copy. That's a real impedance to growing organized play. The bottom line is that cards that offer a large competitive edge should not be this expensive.

This can simply be fixed by banning Beach.

or by u buying them lol

 

[rivershock]

I'm never going to own a Tropical Beach (unless it gets rotated out and becomes cheap), but I'm still highly opposed to this. Banning a card for anything other than being outright broken (like Neo Genesis Slowking) isn't something that should happen. Tropical Beach is a good card. It's not a broken one, even with the new rules. Why is its price even a factor in discussion. Prices are player-set. People shouldn't forget that. Any card can be expensive with enough demand. It's not like people couldn't drive up the prices of things like Pokemon-EX.

 

[carlossan]

Banning the card is indeed stupid, but something has to be done. It cannot remain exclusive to a few. Pokemon has to stick to what it has always been, not turn into a pay to win game =/

 

[losjackal]

Banning the card is indeed stupid, but something has to be done.

But why? Please be specific, not just citing generalized Fear, Uncertainty, or Doubt arguments (FUD).

 

[Raen]

But why? Please be specific, not just citing generalized Fear, Uncertainty, or Doubt arguments (FUD).

If a card that costs 150+ gives players a SIGNIFICANT advantage over those who do not have access to it, I think something should be done.

Of course, whether that is the case or not is yet to be seen. It's probably best if we wait and see how Cities go.

 

[losjackal]

Thank you for that. If there is a genuine concern, I'm afraid waiting until after Cities might be too late to do something about it, since the card is scheduled to rotate at the end of this season. So let's attempt to analyze whether the advantage is significant or not.

To attain this advantage, a player must:

1. Reserve 1-4 card slots in their deck for Tropical Beach
2. Go first (50% of the time)
3. Draw into or be able to search out Tropical Beach on that turn (50% of the time?)
4. Have a hand size that allows them to "beach" into a meaningful number of cards (80% of the time?)

If any of those percentages fail, the player might have been better off just including other cards in their deck, because now those Tropical Beaches rapidly become a liability as dead cards.

50% * 50% * 80% = 20% of the time they benefit from the strategy of including Tropical Beach so that they can do something meaningful going first on Turn 1 if they manage to put it in play. If that pays off, let's quantify that advantage and say they have a 10% greater chance of winning the game now.

The flip side is, now that the stadium is in play, the person going second has a new option available to them, one that might also increase their odds of being able to win the game, including strategically playing their entire hand down to subsequently "beach for 7". Tropical Beach is double-edged sword...the advantage of going first and getting it out can be negated by your opponent using it after you for greater benefit, or even just forcing you to reshuffle your hand with a card like N. If this advantage materializes, it can be countered.

What other reason might there be that something must be done?

 

[Swordfish1989]

jackal, on paper your analysis seems sound, though one could argue that finding a beach in the deck can be more easily achieved. After all, you could always N/Juniper your starting hand away, giving you a fresh chance at drawing one of the ones in your deck, or if you run Skyla, can simply search for it if you start with Skyla. I think it's a little bit weird that people are hyping up Tropical Beach THIS much, since as you accurately portray, its biggest advantage is on the first turn of the game if you even go first. However, since I don't play as competitively as I used to, I find it hard to argue with people who are better players since I don't have much of a leg to stand on.

Here's a very interesting idea though, that can drop the popularity (or power) of Tropical Beach without anything happening to it: releasing more cards with a similar end effect. As in, remember Call Energy? What if we had more cards that had a 'do this power, but you can't attack' and have them simply be on par with what Beach does? Like, a basic Pokemon with that power that allows you to essentially Call for Family, or that allows you to search your deck for a Basic Energy and attach it to one of your Pokemon. If we have enough alternate powers like this, maybe Beach won't be so widely used. Let's face it, what other cards do we have right now with the same ability as Beach?

 

[losjackal]

Skyla's certainty great at getting out Beach. So is Computer Search. But now you are burning those cards to get the Beach, costing you a certain amount to try to gain an advantage. A bigger example is you Junipered away 3 cards to draw a fresh 7, with contained a Beach you put in play, and maybe you play one more card, and then Beach for 2? Was that first turn benefit really worth it if you had to Juniper away those three other cards? It all depends on the game state and luck, and even decisions the player makes. I'm trying to prove through analysis that just having X copies of Tropical Beach in a deck does not automatically give that player such a significant advantage that something must be done about it.

If we can prove otherwise (which is why I'd still love to hear other reasons), then we have evidence that TPCi can consider to influence them to do something.

 

[espy87]

I doubt more beaches will be played. It will give the turn two player a bigger advantage than they already have with the new rules.

Player 2 has a terrible start with their plasma or darkrai deck, go second, and can't attack? "Thanks!"

 

[carlossan]

The flip side is, now that the stadium is in play, the person going second has a new option available to them, one that might also increase their odds of being able to win the game, including strategically playing their entire hand down to subsequently "beach for 7". Tropical Beach is double-edged sword...the advantage of going first and getting it out can be negating by your opponent using it after you for greater benefit, or even just forcing you to reshuffle your hand with a card like N. If this advantage materializes, it can be countered.

What other reason might there be that something must be done?

1 card less won't do much if u use N on second turn. Also, it isnt only about the number of cards, but the set up itself. If u go first AND get beach (pretty easy), u can set up ur squirtle (or whatever basic u need for the next turn). Meaning u will most likely get a big play on second turn

 

[SMP88]

1 card less won't do much if u use N on second turn. Also, it isnt only about the number of cards, but the set up itself. If u go first AND get beach (pretty easy), u can set up ur squirtle (or whatever basic u need for the next turn). Meaning u will most likely get a big play on second turn

If you go second and don't use beach you can use a bunch of items and Junk Hunt them back. Meaning you will most likely get you a big play on the second turn.

If you go second and don't use beach you can attack with Plasma Kyurem, doing 30 to a benched Pokemon. Setting up damage will most likely get you a big play on the second turn.

Going first and using Beach doesn't automatically win you the game. Does it help? Of course it does, but so do the other 56+ cards in your deck.

 

[MrMimeMan24]

Lets look at another event like pokemon worlds. How about the Olympics. With the Olympics compared to beach you want all counties to get a gold metal? Or since you did not win the gold metal you want all gold metals band? Its simple beach is a card that is given to the great pokemon players and they get to do whatever they want with it. Banning or re-printing beach is like saying to those who won a gold metal at the Olympics the gold metal is not worth all the time and effort that one person or team put into winning it.