Blissey/ Sableye, "The Fishing Engine" and 70% Win record

[vanderbilt_grad]

Actually that's not always true poketo. First there are a ton of decks that don't fill up the bench. Blissey is one of the best examples of that. Frequently you will get only 1-2 cards with a Steven's against that kind of opponent. Also fast decks that KO early tend not to get as much from a Steven's.

Secondly, this deck runs a ton of instuant use stuff. It's easy to get down to just 1-2 cards in a heartbeat with that many pure trainers. Birch will regularly net anywhere from 3-5 cards with this kind of engine.

Both of those are observations based off my own similar testing. Yes Steven's will sometimes net you 6 cards (had that happen tonight when my son played one) and other times Birch will only get you 1 or 2 (had that happen last week in testing) .. but in this particular deck Birch is the play more times than not.

 

[Darkwalker]

The cool part of the trainer line is the lack of shuffling cards in the deck at all. With the exception of Night Maintenence, when you place something on the top or bottom of the deck it will stay there. This is why Quick Ball might do far more damage to your deck that a failed search on a Master/Dusk Ball. I'm really impressed with the whole concept. It's also nice to see something that doesn't run the 4 Celio, 4 Rare Candy, 4 Castaway, etc.

 

[MrMeches]

I like this type of critical thinking. So how many of your different decks can run off "The Fishing Engine"?

Right now I have 4 running this variant. Demetre is testing a couple himself so that is 2 more... all have there own style but are similar in consistency!

Just IMHO but Cess is far better than Battle Frontier here. Excavate is nice ... but shutting down Gardevoir or other kinds of Poke-Powers/Bodies that BF doesn't can win games.

BTW ... I *love* the trainer engine. I had been working on something somewhat similar myself, but I really like the way yours looks.

Gardevoir isn't much of an issue as it doesn't really get to use too much. They can only discard so many times with TVR.. Oklahoma Players can attest to this fact.. and Birch is so dependent on a small hand. Unless the opponent is running a similar engine, than that too doesn't get used as much! CC kills the setup for Excavate and then deciding to Nav/Dex/ Ball the top card! And thanks.. the engine took some time to tweak out just right, but it is nice!

1 or 2 Sableye has always been enough.

On the contrary.. you want the Sableye Start so 4 is needed for that. Again, slowing down their starter is necessary and hitting the disable early can sway the game quickly in your favor!!

the list looks great.
the only thing i can see me adding would be windstorm.
its a 1 for 0 and it gets rid of cess so you can use excavate all game.
cess isnt used as much as it was before,but it is still used.
so ya,try windstorm if you'd like.
id suggest 3-4.
if your guna run 4,id suggest taking out 1 pp,1 sc and the 2 BF.
if your guna run 3 try taking out 2 BF and 1 sc.

I tried the windstorm, but it really wasn't needed here! Now in the Magmortar deck I use this in, I go to windstorms over BF and it works out ok!

Little maths to show efficency...

22 cards it accepts out of a deck of 58 (because Sableye and an energy are used and the rest of the hand is ignored).

Chance you hit a trainer on top with the first card: 11/29 chance you don't: 18/29
Now, if you revealed a trainer, the deck is one less as are the trainer count: 21/57 otherwise 22/57

This carries on for all 5 cards, it's similar to working out lottery odds.

So when I programmed this into my computer in BASIC...

10 print "Magic Umbreon's Sableye SW Efficency Tester"
20 input "How many trainers in the deck? " o
30 let w = 0
40 input "Repeat for? " a
50 for n=1 to a+1
60 let d = 58
70 let t = o
80 for q=1 to 5
90 let r = int(ran(d))
100 if r < t then
110 let t = t-1
120 let w = w + 1
130 endif
140 next q
150 next n
160 let x = w/a
170 print "An average of ", x, " trainers revealed"

where a=100000 (so it looks at the top 5 of a deck then reshuffles 100000 times) it gave x=1.84

So in conclusion,

For a deck with 22 trainers, Sableye SW gives an average of 1.84 with its attack.

IMO, this isn't very good.

I could go on to produce a graph of trainer count against average trainers revealed but whatever. Maybe it would be more useful for dark/master ball?

I appreciate the scientific side of things as well! In early games, the other sableye proved uneventful and gave m eabout those odds. 1-2 max was the issue so Disable proved to win out!!

It's nice to see someone else who realizes how powerfull Birch can be in the right deck.

I love the trainer line. Nice deck.

Birch is just the play for any trainer decks right nopw. Thinning out then Birching fro six and possibly thinning out again! Thanks for the compliment.. it is fun to play!!

Having played against this list (MrMeches) in TOP 4, I can tell you it runs smoothly the way it is! One reason is: I lost....

Thanks BRO!! Those were so awesome matches though.... and I represented by taking it all!!

How does birch work out??

3-4 Cards usually. Occasionally you clean up with 6, but average 3-4!

stevens gives better return just do that birch has set amount left but stevens usually gives 4 to 6 cards

Steven's is Opponent dependent so the averages are an unown!! Birch in here can be averaged over numerous times playing!

Actually that's not always true poketo. First there are a ton of decks that don't fill up the bench. Blissey is one of the best examples of that. Frequently you will get only 1-2 cards with a Steven's against that kind of opponent. Also fast decks that KO early tend not to get as much from a Steven's.

Secondly, this deck runs a ton of instuant use stuff. It's easy to get down to just 1-2 cards in a heartbeat with that many pure trainers. Birch will regularly net anywhere from 3-5 cards with this kind of engine.

Both of those are observations based off my own similar testing. Yes Steven's will sometimes net you 6 cards (had that happen tonight when my son played one) and other times Birch will only get you 1 or 2 (had that happen last week in testing) .. but in this particular deck Birch is the play more times than not.

Exactly.. SA depends on your opponent and Birch is all you!!

The cool part of the trainer line is the lack of shuffling cards in the deck at all. With the exception of Night Maintenence, when you place something on the top or bottom of the deck it will stay there. This is why Quick Ball might do far more damage to your deck that a failed search on a Master/Dusk Ball. I'm really impressed with the whole concept. It's also nice to see something that doesn't run the 4 Celio, 4 Rare Candy, 4 Castaway, etc.

Some shuffling involved, but not much!! It is pretty much str8 forward! Master/ Dusk Ball do the job for randomizing just right as usually I Excavate, decide to Dump it or Master/Dusk to shuffle and then Excavate again! Works out well!!

I appreciate all the comments!! This is a really fun and effective deck list!! Again, it is strategy based and for advanced players!!

SOTG!

~Prof. Fish~

 

[poketo]

ok i'll just have to trash all of my supporters and hopefully get a lucky card i once used it many times and i didn't have much outcomes with positive comparing (and in my state there is mainly filled benches so that is how i gave that statement so don't chew off my butt!)

 

[MrMeches]

ok i'll just have to trash all of my supporters and hopefully get a lucky card i once used it many times and i didn't have much outcomes with positive comparing (and in my state there is mainly filled benches so that is how i gave that statement so don't chew off my butt!)

Nobody chewing off your butt...:nonono:

Just letting you know in this particular deck list, Birch is the better play.!:thumb:

 

[zapatosunidos]

Is Sableye's resistance to Pokemon of all types, or specifically to colorless type?

Additionally, when you are playing this deck, how often do you choose to discard the card you flip with excavate? I assume for this deck you would only discard energy, since you have no way of grabbing back anything from discard other than Blissey?

This engine would potentially work well with Electivire, I think.

 

[MrMeches]

Is Sableye's resistance to Pokemon of all types, or specifically to colorless type?

Additionally, when you are playing this deck, how often do you choose to discard the card you flip with excavate? I assume for this deck you would only discard energy, since you have no way of grabbing back anything from discard other than Blissey?

This engine would potentially work well with Electivire, I think.

Resistacne to just :colorless type. So Blissey would need 2 nrg just to do 10 normally. Early game it is primarily energy getting discarded, however, mid to late game, if it is an 2unnecessary card.... a ball, BF, etc. that is just clunking up the deck, I will discard it to get to the Blissey I need or the Energy I need!

And it does work well with Electivire SW well. Motor Drive is similar to Blissey except for its a power, but ti is the same concept. Electivire is just Flippy for me and it is difficult to modify it just right to run the Elekid/Buzz line!

Thanks for ALL the responses!! I suggest trying this one out and seeing if it works for you!!

~Prof. Fish~

 

[Prime]

Blissey with 4 energy attached would be doing 60 damage (base 20 + 40) which would do 30 to Sableye. Blissey would need 7 energy on it to deal the 60 damage needed to OHKO Sableye.

 

[MrMeches]

Blissey with 4 energy attached would be doing 60 damage (base 20 + 40) which would do 30 to Sableye. Blissey would need 7 energy on it to deal the 60 damage needed to OHKO Sableye.

Sorry Prime.. meant 2 nrg for early setup. But yeah... unless they run FF wiht fighting nrg, 7 nrg is what you need.... what a waste of a boost nrg if you go that route!!

Keep em coming!! This is fnatastic conversation with everyone having just slightly different ideas!!

~Prof. Fish~

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

With half your basics as Sableye, wouldn't special darkness nrg really pay off? With that and pluspower, disable can be damaging as well as disabling?

Is Absol any use here btw?

_____________________________________

According to my calculations, Dusk/Master Ball reveals at least one pokémon 79% of the time (with a starter pokémon, dusk/master ball in hand and everything else randomly distributed among the rest of your hand, deck and prizes. In this same situation, the average pokémon in the top 7 of the deck is 1.26, so there's a decent chance you'll get the choice - something quick ball doesn't provide.

Looking at it more pessimistically, that 21% can still hurt. If you can use a deck search card and KNOW the quantity of pokémon in your deck (which also lets you know your prizes, the odds of any of the balls are completly different. That's one of the reasons I really like this deck engine because although it looks simple, it's anything but.

For example, if you start with Sableye and your deck contains 3 Chansey, 4 Blissey and a Sableye, you know that your prizes contain a Chansey and 2 Sableye, so later you can deduce the rest if not that search. Also, you know that quick ball will get Blissey with 50% efficency. Suppose you great ball for a Sableye and knock two cards with excavate, one of which is a Chansey. While remembering the previous numbers, you think to yourself "ah, quick ball will get blissey with 67% efficeny" or 2:1 however you call it. This is a really tactical approach that I think quick ball could really pay off with.

 

[mila]

2 Battle frontier is a bad play.. you dont have a way to search it out and when you topdeck it and use your opponent surely have a windstorm in hand..

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Soft as a Baby’s Bottom LOL

 

[MrMeches]

With half your basics as Sableye, wouldn't special darkness nrg really pay off? With that and pluspower, disable can be damaging as well as disabling?

Is Absol any use here btw?

_____________________________________

According to my calculations, Dusk/Master Ball reveals at least one pokémon 79% of the time (with a starter pokémon, dusk/master ball in hand and everything else randomly distributed among the rest of your hand, deck and prizes. In this same situation, the average pokémon in the top 7 of the deck is 1.26, so there's a decent chance you'll get the choice - something quick ball doesn't provide.

Looking at it more pessimistically, that 21% can still hurt. If you can use a deck search card and KNOW the quantity of pokémon in your deck (which also lets you know your prizes, the odds of any of the balls are completly different. That's one of the reasons I really like this deck engine because although it looks simple, it's anything but.

For example, if you start with Sableye and your deck contains 3 Chansey, 4 Blissey and a Sableye, you know that your prizes contain a Chansey and 2 Sableye, so later you can deduce the rest if not that search. Also, you know that quick ball will get Blissey with 50% efficency. Suppose you great ball for a Sableye and knock two cards with excavate, one of which is a Chansey. While remembering the previous numbers, you think to yourself "ah, quick ball will get blissey with 67% efficeny" or 2:1 however you call it. This is a really tactical approach that I think quick ball could really pay off with.

Absol just slows down your opponent, but doesn't add that extra discard to help power Blissey. It works on the premise of slowing them down, but afte r Baleful Winding so many times ot becomes a useless card whereas Sableye at least can force a retreat with Disable.

2 Battle frontier is a bad play.. you dont have a way to search it out and when you topdeck it and use your opponent surely have a windstorm in hand..

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

Soft as a Baby’s Bottom LOL

Not really.. theyhave to have the windstorm and most have cut down t o2-3 and many discard them if they feel they don't need it. I have never had and issue getting them, actually, they end up getting in the way and get discarded with Excavate!

~Prof. Fish~

 

[Let Fire Fall]

I tested y our list against Gardy/llade and found it really is a close matchup, maybe even a little in Blissey's favor. In all my games though, had I had a galactics I could have won the games much earlier. Gardy just gets too big of a hand when they just TVR every turn on top of their own supporters.

 

[MrMeches]

I tested y our list against Gardy/llade and found it really is a close matchup, maybe even a little in Blissey's favor. In all my games though, had I had a galactics I could have won the games much earlier. Gardy just gets too big of a hand when they just TVR every turn on top of their own supporters.

So would you suggest - 1 Steven's + 1 Wager?? I considered that but I fail so many times at RPS!

~Prof. Fish~

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

My version of an "engine" like this used Prof. Birch, Copycat, and Prof. Rowan exclusively. You don't get pure draw or the nice energy discard via TRV that way but it also hugely limits what Gardevoir can gain from your trainers. The fact is that you don't need a huge hand with Blissey nor do you loose much by exchaning your cards in hand for something else much of the time, but setup decks like Garde can rarely say the same.

Also have you tried Minun as a tech?

 

[MrMeches]

My version of an "engine" like this used Prof. Birch, Copycat, and Prof. Rowan exclusively. You don't get pure draw or the nice energy discard via TRV that way but it also hugely limits what Gardevoir can gain from your trainers. The fact is that you don't need a huge hand with Blissey nor do you loose much by exchaning your cards in hand for something else much of the time, but setup decks like Garde can rarely say the same.

Also have you tried Minun as a tech?

Minun would be a nice tech, and could help with the overall draw setup!! The Shuffle Draw is nice and I could see real value for it!! This deck was conceived on just setting up asap and hitting and then recylcing the koed Blissey asap. I prefer the str8 Rowan over the CC though. Too often, I need that 1 card and Rowan allows you to keep it! This would limit the Garde hands as the only draw would be shuffle draw... however there have been several games where I would almost deck the opponent!

So many great ideas and with such an easily obtainable Engine!! Thanks for all th egreat comments!!

~Prof. Fish~

 

[Dark Weedle]

After several attempts, 4 Great Ball is less than Great. WIth so much thinning going on, PokeNav, Pokedex adn the other balls, it works well. However, it was a thought earlier on but sacked a Great ball for a Battle Frontier... was still consistent and added the lock for some decks! Thanks

a lock for some deck =////
i like the list now that i see it

 

[MrMeches]

I f only I had gotten that Plus Power!! Thanks DW!! GL tomorrow if you go!!

~Prof. Fish~

 

[Let Fire Fall]

I used a modified version of this today at a CC. I love the idea you had with Pokedex/Nav and Birch, the deck thins out so fast and I always Birched for 4-6 cards, so average of 5. The decks top-deck ablility is great thanks to Sableye and Pokenav. Unfortunately though, I went 2-2 and dropped since it was a pretty long ride home. I beat 2 Emopleon and lost against Gallade/Gardevoir and Gatr (Hurricane).

 

[Chromecatz]

Think you could further explain the gardillade matchup, Meches?