About Adam and Eve...

[Prime]

Because people live and die by it every second of every day. Wars are created over the bible and millions of people take time out of their day to talk about it every sunday. It's a pretty big part of our lives, and I couldn't see myself just "believing" without it making sense.

...we would be mindless beings who only love Him because we were programmed to...

.

How is that different than today? A good group of the people that believe in God and Christianity only do because their parents drilled it into their heads and forced them to go to Church every Sunday.

 

[drmario]

cuz god told us 2?? duhh :nonono:sychic:

Really?
Where? When?

 

[Water Pokemon Master]

How is that different than today? A good group of the people that believe in God and Christianity only do because their parents drilled it into their heads and forced them to go to Church every Sunday.

Side note: Being Christian doesn't mean you go to church every Sunday, though it certainly helps.

People who are "programmed" into being Christian are probably not truly Christian, though I am sure many are. You have to discover Christ on your own. I was raised in a Christian home, but I don't call myself Christian quite yet because I don't fully believe in God (though I certainly lead a Christian life and follow those ideals). Other people probably would call themselves Christian just because they go to church and sing the hymns, but that is not what a Christian is. Your parents can certainly influence what religion you go for, but most people have the means of finding the truth for themselves; it it their responsibility to find God. If they know what it is to be Christian, which can only be obtained through reading the Bible and discovering the truth for themselves, they will not be programmed. Others who are programmed, like I said, are probably not Christian, though they may think so. I used to think I was Christian because I was "born" that way and into a Christian family, and I obviously was not one (for even thinking that).

 

[Azure Kite]

I knew someone was going to come in with this "God has a plan" nonsense. Just because someone has a plan, doesn't mean you go along with it (Hitler had a LOVELY plan for the entire world, Genocide on a Old Testament God-like scale, yet we didn't exactly go along with that plan now did we?)

Most of what has been said here is a pretty good argument. I will try to explain some, but again, as has been said, it boils down to faith. God gives us the choice to believe or not. If you truly want answers, go to a church with a pastor that will answer your questions. If you want to disprove christianity, then your waisting your time.

And return to the Garden by making the right choices? Thats a Paradox, the ones who you want to return to you, the intelegent thinkers, will be the ones who question you because they aren't the ones to take the word of a few guys in robes and an archaic old book (There is no such thing as second-hand revelation. The Bible is simply hearsay), whereas the people who WILL end up returning to you are little more than sheep, following the will of something they do not know, cannot comprehend, and will not question. If you are telling me that the only way to return to God is to throw my intelegence and curiosity out the window (for the Bible CLEARLY condemns those who question it), then I would rather suffer for eternity as the man I was born with than live forever as a Pretender.

The whole "return to him" thing just fails in the grand scheme of things.

Throwing your intelligence and curiosity out the window is not what I meant. Did you miss the part where faith comes from believing and trusting? And I really don't think you would rather suffer an eternity than blindly obey. I really don't. But then again, you don't have to make that descision.

I don't know why lightning falls from the sky. There must be a guy throwing thunderbolts.
I don't know why we suffer and die. Some woman must have opened a box.
Have faith maybe, but why in YOUR religion? Why can't God simply accept that humans will make their own minds up, and not punish us for eternity for it, is it not the job of a "Father" to love and cherish his children regardless of their choices in life?

All have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. Being created by Him, we answer to Him, whether or not man had sinned, we still answer to Him. And I hope you grasp that Adam and Eve represent all humans. They were just as human as us. Its easy to think that you would never had done something so stupid. But I'm sure it would be a little different if you were there. God makes the rules. He gives you the choice to accept that or not, but he also gives consequences for actions....

So as I said, before, God set us up to live guilt ridden lives, going into eternity knowing that we will never again return to Paradise (according to Genesis).
He allowed an OBVIOUSLY charismatic demon (lets be honest, Lucifer convinced half the angels of Heaven to rebel, he is obviously a good speaker) to talk to your creations and tempt them? Thats quite the equivilant of Rosevelt allowing Hitler to come over here and make a speach to America during WWII, its utter stupidity.
So why would you want to worship this guy again?

Do you own a Bible? If so, try reading the book of Job. In that book, Job is probably the richest, and most righteous man in his time. Yet God allows the Devil to tempt him, and eventually do all but kill him. He allows the devil to do it to test Job's faith. Job can still say "naked I entered this world and naked I will return. Blessed be the name of the Lord." Thats not blind obedience. Thats faith. Look at it closer, you'll see the Roosevelt/Hitler case is very different from the God/devil case.

We are lucky he doesn't throw us all into the fire because he made us imperfect and wishes to save some of us from a fate of eternal pain and suffering in a place he made?
The more I hear about God, the more I think of him as a cosmic Hitler, judging and killing those he finds unworthy to be with him, and casting them aside.

Yes, were lucky he provides an escape, because as all have sinned, all have fallen short of the glory of He who made us.

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

As I see it, there's a difference between free will and wisdom. I'm not entirely sure what is even meant by "free will," but it seems to me that it's entirely possible to have the ability to choose any possible course of action, while also having the inherent wisdom never to choose the bad/wrong/stupid ones. As such, I don't see why humans couldn't have been created with complete free will as well as the wisdom never to sin, defy God, be tempted, etc.

But it is not blind faith. Faith still requires believing and trusting.

What's the difference? It seems like you're just using different words for the same thing. If you have no real reason to believe in something or trust in it, then it's blind faith, blind belief, blind trust, whatever you want to call it.

 

[Water Pokemon Master]

We do have the wisdom to know what sin is. That's what the Bible, and most of the time, common sense is for. It's our guideline on how to live our lives, and obviously, we will not always follow them because of our selfish / "bad" natures.

Free will is just that. Do what you want. Want to sin in a situation? Go ahead. Want to do the right thing? Go ahead. If you sin you will hurt God, even if it's just once. That's why he sent his son Jesus to die on the cross for us, since sin was in our nature. If we admit Jesus died for us, we admit we are sinners, and we will go to Heaven (most of the time - I'm still not sure on all of the "requirements"). Jesus is the bridge between man and God, since God is perfect and we all deserve to go to ****.

BTW, some of the things I say may not be right, since I haven't been to church in a while and haven't actually opened the Bible on my own. I'm not a true Christian yet, but most of what I am saying I have definitely heard from my minister and have lived thinking that.

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

WPM:
I'm operating under the assumption that the wisest course of action is never to sin. I mean, if God says so, then that must be the case, right? Anyway, the fact that people do sometimes feel that sinning is the right choice shows they are lacking in wisdom. So what I'm saying is, why couldn't God have just made really wise people? I'm trying to point out that this doesn't contradict the concept of free will. At least, I don't see that it does in any way. If I'm wrong, somebody please explain.

I notice you also say that "sin was in our nature." Our very nature, eh? And did not God, as creator, give us that nature? So doesn't that mean God made us sinners?

 

[drmario]

WPM:
I'm operating under the assumption that the wisest course of action is never to sin. I mean, if God says so, then that must be the case, right? Anyway, the fact that people do sometimes feel that sinning is the right choice shows they are lacking in wisdom. So what I'm saying is, why couldn't God have just made really wise people? I'm trying to point out that this doesn't contradict the concept of free will. At least, I don't see that it does in any way. If I'm wrong, somebody please explain.

I notice you also say that "sin was in our nature." Our very nature, eh? And did not God, as creator, give us that nature? So doesn't that mean God made us sinners?

If you know so much that you never sin then you've never had free will, because you'll always just do what is "right". You would be like a computer that only does what it was programmed to do.

 

[Kabutops141]

So doesn't that mean God made us sinners?

Yes, it does. He also gave us his only son as our savior so that we can be forgiven from our sins.

 

[master of puppets]

Do you own a Bible? If so, try reading the book of Job. In that book, Job is probably the richest, and most righteous man in his time. Yet God allows the Devil to tempt him, and eventually do all but kill him. He allows the devil to do it to test Job's faith. Job can still say "naked I entered this world and naked I will return. Blessed be the name of the Lord." Thats not blind obedience. Thats faith. Look at it closer, you'll see the Roosevelt/Hitler case is very different from the God/devil case..

First things first.
I think that is a bunch of bull!
Why would God do such a thing to someone just to prove a point to someone? I really don't understand why He would do something like that. It's absurd.

Now on the subject of faith again I bring up the point:
It's kind of hard to have full faith when you're an altogether good person, and yet your prayers are not and have not been answered, and people who are "less faithful" than yourself get so much further ahead than you.
Why would that be?
I do believe in God, and I do worship Him. I have lost my faith before when I was about 15ish but I re-accepted him into my life shortly after.
But what I want to know is why, if I am faithful and worship God, does my neighbor get so much further ahead than myself when he himself does absolutely nothing such as worship?
If I am the one who goes out of my way to do good deeds for people and worship God and all of that jazz, why is it my neighbor, the kind of person who pokes fun at the disabled, the who has it so much better, and I am left with the short end of the stick?
Its things like that that have me questioning my faith.
Now I'm fairly sure that I will always believe in God and will continue to worship Him, but I can't help but wonder if I am just wasting my time...

Can anyone answer any of the above?

And on the point of going to church makes you Christian, heres a wise point that I have heard.
"Standing in a church makes you no more Christian that standing in a garage makes you a car".

 

[Water Pokemon Master]

WPM:
I'm operating under the assumption that the wisest course of action is never to sin. I mean, if God says so, then that must be the case, right? Anyway, the fact that people do sometimes feel that sinning is the right choice shows they are lacking in wisdom. So what I'm saying is, why couldn't God have just made really wise people? I'm trying to point out that this doesn't contradict the concept of free will. At least, I don't see that it does in any way. If I'm wrong, somebody please explain.

I notice you also say that "sin was in our nature." Our very nature, eh? And did not God, as creator, give us that nature? So doesn't that mean God made us sinners?

I'm not sure if I am qualified to answer that, but this is what I think from what I have heard...

God wanted us to have free will so that we weren't mindless machines. He told Adam and Eve what was right and what was wrong so they could make their own choice. They chose the wrong - God did not "make" them wrong - he gave them the choice to decide. Failed creations? Maybe. They could have been good, or they could have been sinners, and they chose the latter, which is why sin exists in us today. As a result of that original sin, God gave us the choice to redeem ourselves by sending his son, who did not sin and died to save us from our sins. That is why if you believe in Jesus, your sins are forgiven.

Again, I don't know everything and someone will probably pick a hole in what I am saying. Consult your ministers, or seek one, if you want official answers.

 

[drmario]

First things first.
I think that is a bunch of bull!
Why would God do such a thing to someone just to prove a point to someone? I really don't understand why He would do something like that. It's absurd.

Now on the subject of faith again I bring up the point:
It's kind of hard to have full faith when you're an altogether good person, and yet your prayers are not and have not been answered, and people who are "less faithful" than yourself get so much further ahead than you.
Why would that be?
I do believe in God, and I do worship Him. I have lost my faith before when I was about 15ish but I re-accepted him into my life shortly after.
But what I want to know is why, if I am faithful and worship God, does my neighbor get so much further ahead than myself when he himself does absolutely nothing such as worship?
If I am the one who goes out of my way to do good deeds for people and worship God and all of that jazz, why is it my neighbor, the kind of person who pokes fun at the disabled, the who has it so much better, and I am left with the short end of the stick?
Its things like that that have me questioning my faith.
Now I'm fairly sure that I will always believe in God and will continue to worship Him, but I can't help but wonder if I am just wasting my time...

Can anyone answer any of the above?

And on the point of going to church makes you Christian, heres a wise point that I have heard.
"Standing in a church makes you no more Christian that standing in a garage makes you a car".

Look at the big picture. If you do really believe in God then you also believe that he'll do what is best for you. Maybe what you think is best for you in the short-term isn't good for you in the longterm.

 

[Water Pokemon Master]

First things first.
I think that is a bunch of bull!
Why would God do such a thing to someone just to prove a point to someone? I really don't understand why He would do something like that. It's absurd.

Now on the subject of faith again I bring up the point:
It's kind of hard to have full faith when you're an altogether good person, and yet your prayers are not and have not been answered, and people who are "less faithful" than yourself get so much further ahead than you.
Why would that be?
I do believe in God, and I do worship Him. I have lost my faith before when I was about 15ish but I re-accepted him into my life shortly after.
But what I want to know is why, if I am faithful and worship God, does my neighbor get so much further ahead than myself when he himself does absolutely nothing such as worship?
If I am the one who goes out of my way to do good deeds for people and worship God and all of that jazz, why is it my neighbor, the kind of person who pokes fun at the disabled, the who has it so much better, and I am left with the short end of the stick?
Its things like that that have me questioning my faith.
Now I'm fairly sure that I will always believe in God and will continue to worship Him, but I can't help but wonder if I am just wasting my time...

Can anyone answer any of the above?

And on the point of going to church makes you Christian, heres a wise point that I have heard.
"Standing in a church makes you no more Christian that standing in a garage makes you a car".

Haha, I just read about this kind of thing. Read that one passage in the Bible about that land owner who promises $100 to people who work his land for a day, then promises the same amount to people who work for much less hours (or Google it). It explains why we are selfish, and why you think that way.

And also, going to church does not make you a Christian.

It sounds like you are angry at things because you do not know enough about Christianity (your lack of knowledge leads you to "bashing" it, yet what you are saying is already explained). Everything you have said has been answered in the Bible.

 

[master of puppets]

Hey there partner, I'm not trying to bash it, and I was agreeing that going to church does not make you Christian.
And I've been thinking somewhat of the same thing, Drmario. Its just kinda frustrating, lol.

 

[ZAKtheGeek]

God wanted us to have free will so that we weren't mindless machines. He told Adam and Eve what was right and what was wrong so they could make their own choice. They chose the wrong - God did not "make" them wrong - he gave them the choice to decide. Failed creations? Maybe. They could have been good, or they could have been sinners, and they chose the latter, which is why sin exists in us today. As a result of that original sin, God gave us the choice to redeem ourselves by sending his son, who did not sin and died to save us from our sins. That is why if you believe in Jesus, your sins are forgiven.

So are you saying that by "sin was in our nature" you're talking about original sin? Fair enough, I guess. Was this also meant to address the first part, about the wisdom? I don't really see a response to that.

Yes, it does. He also gave us his only son as our savior so that we can be forgiven from our sins.

Okay. But don't sins hurt people? And then he just forgives them? Isn't that sadistic, and possibly unjust? Don't sins also hurt God in some way? So God is also a masochist...?

If you know so much that you never sin then you've never had free will, because you'll always just do what is "right". You would be like a computer that only does what it was programmed to do.

What do your chosen actions have to do with your ability to choose? I don't see why never doing a thing is equivalent to not being able to choose to do it. Have you ever repeatedly stabbed your mother with a knife? Guessing, no. Does that mean you lack the free will to decide to do so? No, but you're wise enough never to choose such a course. See the difference?

I mean, wasn't free will supposedly given to humans to see if they would decide to sin or not? If they didn't then they'd "always just do what is 'right,'" so that means they're just mindless robots, by your reasoning? So just by giving people free will, their sinning was necessitated in order for the free will to count? This doesn't make sense to me. You don't have to choose to do the wrong thing in order to prove you can. Free will means you can be free to always do the right thing, too.

I mean, this is just based on my understanding of free will. If it seems incompatible with yours, please explain.

Discussing free will can get pretty frustrating for me. I tend to explore the mechanisms behind our choices, and fairly often I just get responses like "you choose, you just choose, you're free to choose." Convenient answers, but too shallow for me.

 

[Umbykirb]

And also, going to church does not make you a Christian.

Heck, I've been to church before, and that doesn't make me Christian! Also, not going to church does not mean you're not Christian. I know a lot of people who are Christian and rarely go to church.

God wanted us to have free will so that we weren't mindless machines. He told Adam and Eve what was right and what was wrong so they could make their own choice. They chose the wrong - God did not "make" them wrong - he gave them the choice to decide. Failed creations? Maybe. They could have been good, or they could have been sinners, and they chose the latter, which is why sin exists in us today. As a result of that original sin, God gave us the choice to redeem ourselves by sending his son, who did not sin and died to save us from our sins. That is why if you believe in Jesus, your sins are forgiven.

What do you mean, Jesus made our sins forgiven? This is a serious question. Did Jesus only exempt us from the original sin, or from all sins until he died, or all sins past that?

I am clueless about the New Testament!

 

[Kabutops141]

MOP: I guess that you could think of it this way, he may have everything now, but you have Christ/Your Faith, and that is waaaayy more important and needed than all that other stuff that your neighbor may have. I also agree on the point about Church.

 

[octillery49]

God knew they would do it, but let them anyway not to destine them for suffering, but because he loves
them, and wanted to let them make their own choice.

MOP: I guess that you could think of it this way, he may have everything now, but you have Christ/Your Faith, and that is waaaayy more important and needed than all that other stuff that your neighbor may have. I also agree on the point about Church.

Yeah, I was gonna post the same thing.

 

[master of puppets]

Very interesting. Thanks.
The guy I'm talking about isn't really my neighbor, he's one of my good friends, and I don't really envy him that much, I'm more of just using him and the situation as an example of how that sort of thing just doesn't really make a lot of sense.
I kind of see it from a parents point of view. Like if two of your children wanted a toy or something, one of your children follows all of your rules and guidelines whereas the other disobeys them and does wrong, why but the toy for the disobedient child over the behaving one? Know what I'm saying?
I tell ya, Religion is some complicated stuff, lol.

 

[ninetales1234]

Look at the big picture. If you do really believe in God then you also believe that he'll do what is best for you. Maybe what you think is best for you in the short-term isn't good for you in the longterm.

To those of you who are confused by Christian ideas, I would reccommend doing some research on the concept of God as a being from a higher dimension. We, in our ten (or eleven) dimensional universe cannot fully understand the actions of God.
He functions on things that are beyond our comprehension.

Imagine telling a being in a two-dimensional world (it only has height and width, no depth) about the concept of depth. Imagine telling him there are more than two dimensions. You can't explain the concept of "depth" to him, because he is living in a two-dimensional world. Those who live in a dimension higher than his, are functioning on things that he is unable to understand.

Even if you don't believe that God is a being from a higher dimension (It makes sense, but I don't necessarily believe it), notwithstanding this dimensional stuff: certainly an all-powerful all-knowing deity is wiser than us and probably functions/acts on things that are beyond our comprehension.