Iron Chef:Grades (T16, divisions 1-4...Final verdict in!)

[davidy321]

I'm against the idea of inputting on one's own decklist but if really necessary I will do a detailed version later..
Saying Stark is countered by Snowpoint is invalid because, if I play down Stark (which I will only do if I'm going to use it), that's the same as you would get from Energy Switch (one card). However I will get more than one turn out of it almost always thus giving you the same effect multiple times.
Most importantly you counter snowpoint temple, without a stadium counter, you have to discard 6 energies (or 4 if you don't always use fire) as opposed to 3 (or 2), to KO zapdos/articuno etc. That's obviously a huge difference..

I realize probability wise SSU will work 25% of the time (for the double effect that is).
This is in the mirror/against Articuno where you are OHKO, i.e. does not include against cards such as Zapdos/Mewtwo that don't knock you out. In those cases 50% of the time it is a very useful healer.

However that 25% of the time is huge, and as well as letting you instantly comeback to take a prize you also the prevent (potential) knock out, in the mirror. (Assuming they don't get out Moltres the next turn and flip heaps >_>)
Pokeblowers also are arguably probability wise unlikely to work as a gust, but again when relevant will be huge. This means you get not only a knock out, but potential energy discards and a turn+ save of your Pokemon being knocked out.

I am only doing some obvious justifications here and do not see it necessary at present to actually state why my list is superior and prefer not to resort to it.
GL

 

[Magic_Umbreon]

I like David's list. LOLtres for the win! 4 SSU and 4 TSD looks like a very good play in a very effective deck under the constraints. Nice work.

 

[davidy321]

Also

4 SSU = 3 Energy (Plus other benefits such as 2x heal - against mewtwo/zapdos etc)
4 Energy Pickup = 2 Energy

 

[bullados]

I'm actually kinda surprised that nobody decided to use the stage 1 Fossils anywhere...

 

[Rainbowgym]

I'm actually kinda surprised that nobody decided to use the stage 1 Fossils anywhere...

LOL, well the challenge was 1 (one) Pokemon in your deck and it should be a basic.

 

[ryanvergel]

I thouht Onix was obvious. 90hp basic in the set, second highest, and hits the highest guy, regi, for double weakness.

 

[Cyrus]

For the record, I think it's perfectly fine for you to comment on your own match. Comment away!

 

[davidy321]

For the record, I think it's perfectly fine for you to comment on your own match. Comment away!

Yeah ok fair enough, I take that back then.
So far it's like 5 to 0 (if you include Kettlers inital decision and exclude me/wooper) so I hopefully won't need to comment more elaborately than I already have.

 

[Brady1]

I thouht Onix was obvious. 90hp basic in the set, second highest, and hits the highest guy, regi, for double weakness.

Against anything with a fighting resistance/metal energy, he hits for practically nothing. Basically, he's just a wall pokemon that can beat the biggest card in that division. Is each set it's own division or is it the entire group of basics? If the first, then onix is kinda obvious. If the second, then onix is very out there (though I don't see it beating anything really).

 

[ryanvergel]

how is 60 practically nothing? couldn't you say the same for your choice? you max at 40 damage... anything resistant to M or who uses M energy will take such little damage vs you... You max at 40 damage, so what happens if you drop a snowpoint, or your oppo does? You 2-shot fossils, who will always be discarded before the second shot. I don't think you have a real right to criticize damage output, as you can't even KO armor or dome fossil without a pluspower, and almost never with a snowpoint (perhaps one of your FOUR) in play.

Yes, he's a wall pokemon who OHKOs fossils and OHKOs the biggest threat in the division. Like, besides regigigas he was the most obvious basic to choose in the set. Who else is there? TANGELA? Like, there were two options for that set, regi or onix.

I tried to take onix into account both for its own division, just the SF set, and for all basics in the entire DP-on format. I think he would be a decent choice. He is a fine starter, reducing damage until he can KO stuff, he gets the OHKO vs fossils (important), has good HP (90), and does status, and a very powerful status at that. I saw few switches/warp points, so if the opponent can't get a healer or whatever, they're stuck paralyzed. 60 is still a decent amount. It 2-shots, uses 3 energy, is fighting type (begging for energy manipulation, and the only type besides fire that can use it in this limited format- but he failed to do so).

I maintain that Onix is obvious because if you search for basics in SF, there are only 2 who have more than 70hp. Onix and Regi. Anything with 70 or less really isn't viable. ( you get around this with metal energy, where just one already makes you have, in effect, 80 damage).

So, you are left with ONLY two pokemon to choose from. Why should BT get some extra consideration for card usage when it was one of two, really- one winning heads up.

 

[Brady1]

how is 60 practically nothing? couldn't you say the same for your choice? you max at 40 damage... anything resistant to M or who uses M energy will take such little damage vs you... You max at 40 damage, so what happens if you drop a snowpoint, or your oppo does? You 2-shot fossils, who will always be discarded before the second shot. I don't think you have a real right to criticize damage output, as you can't even KO armor or dome fossil without a pluspower, and almost never with a snowpoint (perhaps one of your FOUR) in play.

Yes, he's a wall pokemon who OHKOs fossils and OHKOs the biggest threat in the division. Like, besides regigigas he was the most obvious basic to choose in the set. Who else is there? TANGELA? Like, there were two options for that set, regi or onix.

I tried to take onix into account both for its own division, just the SF set, and for all basics in the entire DP-on format. I think he would be a decent choice. He is a fine starter, reducing damage until he can KO stuff, he gets the OHKO vs fossils (important), has good HP (90), and does status, and a very powerful status at that. I saw few switches/warp points, so if the opponent can't get a healer or whatever, they're stuck paralyzed. 60 is still a decent amount. It 2-shots, uses 3 energy, is fighting type (begging for energy manipulation, and the only type besides fire that can use it in this limited format- but he failed to do so).

I maintain that Onix is obvious because if you search for basics in SF, there are only 2 who have more than 70hp. Onix and Regi. Anything with 70 or less really isn't viable. ( you get around this with metal energy, where just one already makes you have, in effect, 80 damage).

So, you are left with ONLY two pokemon to choose from. Why should BT get some extra consideration for card usage when it was one of two, really- one winning heads up.

Onix doesn't hit for 60. So what are you talking about? Yes, weakness=60, but thats only against one pokemon. Moltres is a complete auto-lose, as is raquaza, latios, and all the other big hitters. Small hitters lose but nobody is playing those...As for metal resistance, who actually has that besides rioku (which I would think would be an easy matchup anyways, as they don't hit for a whole lot and are slow)? If you want to play stick ball, be my guest. But only pikachu and shinx would have it...:/ As for snowpoint, its only against the big hitting decks (latios, gdon, ect.), and nobodys list, besides my opponet, who doesn't even run fossils, has the card in thier deck (which completely baffles me). So, as far as I'm concerned, that point is completely mute when comparing decks. Fighting is an easy type to pick on because so many good pokemon in this format resist it. Metal? Not so much.

Again, I've seen NOTHING to indicate what you're saying is actually true. What is this format? Are we doing heads up deck battles? If kettler would answer these, it would be great (though the second would probably be no).

30 OHKOs fossils? What about the fabled snowpoint? :/ Sheesh, but no, he doesn't. He barely 3 shots anything in this format (and thats without adding in healing cards). He's a very unique choice for the entire format, though not that much for the set. And again, where are you getting 60? His attack does freaking 30 for 3 for crying out loud! It may beat gigas but thats about all it beats.

70 or less is viable when you can hit for a good amount. Again, I'll say scyther is far more obvious then onix (and maybe even gigas).

 

[Cyrus]

Final winner for Acutin VS Burninating Torchic: Acutin

Final winner for Noir VS Magnechu: Magnechu

I'm going to give it some time before I decide the next two. Again, I'll probably announce it on Friday.

 

[bullados]

Ryan, I thought there were a few <70hp Pokemon that were more obvious than Onix. Misdreavous gives guaranteed T1 status, hits for big, and recovers as well. Farfetch'd hits for a lot, resists Onix, and searches your deck. Miltank self heals and hits for decent quickly, plus has decent HP. Scyther can hit for decent quickly, has free retreat, and resists Onix. Skarmory has 80 hp, is Metal, and can hit for decent quickly. Larvitar hits quickly and hits the bench. Skorupi can lock and places status. Shiney Duskull can lock and resists Gigas. Shiny Voltorb accelerates, hits status, and can hit the bench.

There are lots of viable options in SF. You just need to look for them.

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

Davidy123
Deck List: 7/10
Super Wooper
Deck List: 9/10

Obviously this is all that matters with the same card. My initial reaction (as I'm sure many others) was that SSU was a significant edge, but 4 cards for ONE effect really isn't worth it. As I look at the two lists more, Wooper's is clearly, clearly better imo. All decks in this format with lack of Claydol and so many tech trainers NEED lots of draw and Wooper essentially has double what David has. 4 Felicity 4 Cynthia (which is a great card in this format) is very, very solid while David only has 3 Felicity 1 Cynthia. He also has a Wager which I think is a terrible card here. You play wager if you have draw (like Claydol) and they don't (like when you ko Claydol). In this format, Wager is no more better for you than your opponent. Anyways, 8 draw vs 4 draw is a HUGE difference. Wooper's list is much more likely to get out the various tricks each has and he even has room for 2 Marley to reuse some tricks. 8 solid draw vs 4 solid draw is definitely a 2 point difference in deck list for this claydol-less, trainer-full format.

Blazing Monkey
Deck List: 7/10
Brady1
Deck List: 9/10

Like the other matchup, they both play very similar tech lines. Every ----+ card and healing etc. So whose going to get those cards out? Brady: 4 Oak 4 Buck 4 Rowan 4 Pokedex vs Blazing Monkey: 4 Felicity 4 Buck. 8 draw isn't too bad, but Bucks aren't as good as the Cynthia's in Wooper's deck.

Blazing Monkey
Card choice 3/5
Brady1
Card choice 3/5

I don't really like Palkia. Skarmory does what both decks want to do much better imo. Palkia having to discard to get rid of a guy is going to give them precious time to come back, you won't always get the Energy Patch. That said, Blazing Monkey deserves points for the fact that he would almost certain win this matchup head to head (all skar's wall falls to one heads), but against a fossil format with harder hitters, I think Skarmory would do better. So I'll give even scores (BM gets head to head points, Brady gets vs format points). If there was a tie, I'd side with Blazing Monkey's head to head, since I think that's fairly important, but it's not enough. Overall game to Brady.

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And since I can't edit, I should mention I don't consider Wager good draw for the comparison between Blazing and Brady.

 

[davidy321]

Davidy123
Deck List: 7/10
Super Wooper
Deck List: 9/10

Obviously this is all that matters with the same card. My initial reaction (as I'm sure many others) was that SSU was a significant edge, but 4 cards for ONE effect really isn't worth it. As I look at the two lists more, Wooper's is clearly, clearly better imo. All decks in this format with lack of Claydol and so many tech trainers NEED lots of draw and Wooper essentially has double what David has. 4 Felicity 4 Cynthia (which is a great card in this format) is very, very solid while David only has 3 Felicity 1 Cynthia. He also has a Wager which I think is a terrible card here. You play wager if you have draw (like Claydol) and they don't (like when you ko Claydol). In this format, Wager is no more better for you than your opponent. Anyways, 8 draw vs 4 draw is a HUGE difference. Wooper's list is much more likely to get out the various tricks each has and he even has room for 2 Marley to reuse some tricks. 8 solid draw vs 4 solid draw is definitely a 2 point difference in deck list for this claydol-less, trainer-full format.

Blazing Monkey
Deck List: 7/10
Brady1
Deck List: 9/10

Like the other matchup, they both play very similar tech lines. Every ----+ card and healing etc. So whose going to get those cards out? Brady: 4 Oak 4 Buck 4 Rowan 4 Pokedex vs Blazing Monkey: 4 Felicity 4 Buck. 8 draw isn't too bad, but Bucks aren't as good as the Cynthia's in Wooper's deck.

Blazing Monkey
Card choice 3/5
Brady1
Card choice 3/5

I don't really like Palkia. Skarmory does what both decks want to do much better imo. Palkia having to discard to get rid of a guy is going to give them precious time to come back, you won't always get the Energy Patch. That said, Blazing Monkey deserves points for the fact that he would almost certain win this matchup head to head (all skar's wall falls to one heads), but against a fossil format with harder hitters, I think Skarmory would do better. So I'll give even scores (BM gets head to head points, Brady gets vs format points). If there was a tie, I'd side with Blazing Monkey's head to head, since I think that's fairly important, but it's not enough. Overall game to Brady.

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And since I can't edit, I should mention I don't consider Wager good draw for the comparison between Blazing and Brady.

I honestly did some simulation testing and found straight draw to be not so great. The most important thing in this format is for you to be able to back your Pokemon once it has been knocked out consistantly. SSU is probability wise better then energy pick up. As well as being able to heal in situations where they dont OHKO you such as mewtwo,
4 Slots = 3 Energies.
4 Energy pick up slots = 2 Energies

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I tested cynthia also and found it honestly to be really really really bad. I decided in the end that 1 Cynthia should be played just to keep in hand for the one time use but it really did not work in this format. I originally had a deck with more draw (like woopers) but found I could not get Moltres back consistantly after the first was knocked out. In the mirror 2 poke blower wins you the game almost always, and this is why I have a list with superior recovery.

SSU is definitely needed. 4 spots does WAY more then 4 spots for energy pick up and recovery is too important in this format.

 

[RanRan]

i like davidy's deck better

firstly he runs counters to snow point temples, if an articuno say comes in with temple, then ur in the situation where they ohko u and u dont ohko them, this is huge, u have no way around it.

secondly davidy's deck plays bench mantiuplation, the problem with moltres is that u spend 2-3 energies each kill, so u dont want to waste them on fossiles, with blower/warp point/warp energy, there are times where u can get their bench out and ko their only pokemon/hitter, this may not be so useufl in the mirror (as moltres tries to charge up in 1 turn anyway) but will be super useful in match ups where it takes them more than 1 turn to set up, if u get a blower and kill a zappy with 2 energy thats gg right there.

they have to play around warp point/warp energy by placing more fossiles which could also make them run out.

these 2 points (apart from the others mentioned) makes davidy's deck a lot better.

 

[ryanvergel]

For some reason I thought Onix had a base damage of 60 (probably because of how much he would do to regigigas in my mind).

 

[Cyrus]

Final verdict in Blazing Monkey VS Brady:

Brady

Will announce the David/Wooper match later.

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And now...The final verdict for David y vs Wooper. This will be longer, though, because I had to do some soul searching on the entries, lol:

Fossil choices:

Claw and Root VS Armor and Skull...Hmmm, the only devastating one in matches is usually the Armor Fossil, because you are actually more likely to get enough damage reduction heads. Claw, however, is a bit gimpy, and Root is outright useless in comparison to others.

8>7 helps David, but at least Wooper has Marley's to maybe get something back later.

Advantage: Wooper, by a bit.

TSD/NM configuration:

I like David's 4 TSD very, very much. What this amounts to practically is requiring only one card - with 7/8 odds of working - to get your Moltres right back out. Wooper actually has more replenishment overall, but I think David has the perfect count here (or at least has closer to it). Advantage: David, by a bit.

Draw and Search:

David, your lack of draw gives you some trouble. Wager "can" be good in this format, but only if timed well (in other words, not when you just need to draw cards). Also, only three Felicity when four ups your odds of FTKO's? Hmmmm. Lastly, Wooper has more search than you.

I still stand by my original statement: there isn't that much of a difference in consistency...They run about equally well. With that said, Wooper's runs a bit better, and it shows. Advantage: Wooper.

Dead Draws:

I didn't mention this in the first write-up, but I _did_ view the Blowers as a problem. However, now I view them as a bigger problem than they first appeared to be. With Wooper, you have Marley's, which is very lame early game, as well as the occasional hand clogged with energy. However, that isn't too bad, especially since Marley's will have some randomly lame uses late game for him. Advantage: insignificantly for Wooper.

Energy Acceleration/Manipulation:

A few who have spoken may see SSU as a relatively dead draw, but the truth is that it's amazing to have. Odds on you getting heads twice on a row (SSU and Moltres) are 25%, so you "are" playing four spots for one effect...But it's worth it! It actually wins games. I still view Stark/Switch in the same light I did earlier. Should be noted that Stark has bigger metagame implications.

Advantage: David, by a lot.

Energy Choices

Woah, now this was truly weird.

For David's list, I actually felt like the energy count wasn't enough. Yes, 16 energy, but due to the lack of draw, energy droughts reveal themselves to be that much more problematic. His choices on the Cyclone are great, but the Warp not so much.

For Wooper, I think he has too "much" energy by just a bit. His choices are also very good, though - especially the single Water energy.

Advantage: Wooper by an insignificant amount.



SUMMARY:

David's major edge is the energy manipulation, with a minor edge in the TSD count.

Wooper's moderate edge is pure consistency, backed up with minor edges in fossil choices, energy choices, and less deficit in terms of dead draws.


So, it happened once before, but it's going to happen again:

FINAL VERDICT IN DAVIDY321 VS SUPERWOOPER:

SuperWooper

I looked at all of the input from both sides, reviewed the write-ups sent in to me, and ultimately decided that Wooper had this won by the slightest margin. David did very well (having Stadiums is a huge thing that Wooper lacked), but his ultimate reason for losing was a poor investment in space. Poke-Blower+'s turned out to harm him immensely, and their presence over draw, energy, or anything that would have helped him otherwise hurt.