GrandmaJoner
Active Member
lol theres been 3-4 of these threads already, love how it gets moved to 'feature article' because its by jimmy ballard ;/
Current State of the game… As seen by Jimmy Ballard
- Thread starter Top Cut Comics
- Start date
Scipio
New Member
Even that doesnt always help. Last BR Final, I got donked TWICE by Macheap, despite 13 basics, 4 of them having a 50-50 avoid all effects including damage attack, and 4 call energy. Both were T1 donks.
SlimeyGrimey
New Member
I really like Jimmy's suggestion, but it (along with changes to supporter/trainer rules) would have to go all the way to Japan. As far as the effectiveness of this suggestion in eliminating turn 1 donks, I think it would be better than switching to match play or anything like that. Match play in swiss I think would seem pretty tedious, and it doesn't REALLY solve the problem. Here's why: You have only 45 minutes. Say the first game ends on turn 1 due to Machamp or Kingdra etc. The second game plays to completion in which the 'long-game strategy' wins. Who do you think wins Game 3 that, most of the time, will effectively be sudden death?
Although I originally advocated the use of Supporters (not trainers) for Player 1, I have had somewhat of a change of heart. I do think this would help the problem of turn 1 donks in that they would be less frequent, but with Crobats and Sableye in the format, as well as free-retreating basics coming back, you can see how this could be a problem for the player going second.
I also do not welcome the idea of searching your deck for basics prior to the start of the game. This would drastically change the way decks are built, and probably the way that the game is played. All sorts of tech basics could be played for certain matchups, and all of them would be singles. I could see there being a staple list of basics that every deck would play in order to best counter the metagame. Pokemon like Mewtwo Lv X and other Lv X pokemon would become quite powerful. I really don't like this suggestion at all; I think it could ruin the game.
Jimmy's suggestion should not have too much of an effect on the game other than cutting down (by a lot) the frequency of turn 1 wins. If we were to also implement yoyofsho's suggestiong of limiting this change to the first prize, I think the change to actual gameplay would be pretty small. Really good idea.
Although I originally advocated the use of Supporters (not trainers) for Player 1, I have had somewhat of a change of heart. I do think this would help the problem of turn 1 donks in that they would be less frequent, but with Crobats and Sableye in the format, as well as free-retreating basics coming back, you can see how this could be a problem for the player going second.
I also do not welcome the idea of searching your deck for basics prior to the start of the game. This would drastically change the way decks are built, and probably the way that the game is played. All sorts of tech basics could be played for certain matchups, and all of them would be singles. I could see there being a staple list of basics that every deck would play in order to best counter the metagame. Pokemon like Mewtwo Lv X and other Lv X pokemon would become quite powerful. I really don't like this suggestion at all; I think it could ruin the game.
Jimmy's suggestion should not have too much of an effect on the game other than cutting down (by a lot) the frequency of turn 1 wins. If we were to also implement yoyofsho's suggestiong of limiting this change to the first prize, I think the change to actual gameplay would be pretty small. Really good idea.
chriscobi634
New Member
The T1 Supporter option is probably best. People argue that you can Wager T1 if that rule is made effective. But what's the difference if you do it the way it is now, but only have the option to do it if your going 2nd?
I will use Upper Energy but really it's kind of a joke card. Like PCL just made it to wash their hands and say they evened out playing field. Trying to help non-SP decks. But even SPs can use them as it isn't limited to evolved Pokemon like Scramble and DRE were. Now those combined would have been a better card. 2 of any energy but only when behind on prizes and did -10 damage. Upper Energy doesn't even count as a single Colorless if your ahead or tied. Upper Energy is only going to be used because it still does give you that energy acceleration.
I will use Upper Energy but really it's kind of a joke card. Like PCL just made it to wash their hands and say they evened out playing field. Trying to help non-SP decks. But even SPs can use them as it isn't limited to evolved Pokemon like Scramble and DRE were. Now those combined would have been a better card. 2 of any energy but only when behind on prizes and did -10 damage. Upper Energy doesn't even count as a single Colorless if your ahead or tied. Upper Energy is only going to be used because it still does give you that energy acceleration.
i personally love the idea of the game going on with no pokemon in the active position. and if you get "donked" you dont lose but instead have a last ditch effort to get somthin out there before your turn ends. its still gonna be a diffcult game for the player who got donked but not an imposible one.
this option IMO brings a bit of balance to the T1 win problem
also if this was to become a permanent ruling i think that the first turn supp and 3 pokemon start rules should not be added
this option IMO brings a bit of balance to the T1 win problem
also if this was to become a permanent ruling i think that the first turn supp and 3 pokemon start rules should not be added
KingGengar
New Member
First, I don't mind donk decks. I certainly don't like losing like that, but then again I don't mind winning that way.
Second, about deck-building: I find that in a 6-game Swiss, I will play 4-5 long games and 1 short or donk. The ration to me doesn't warrant any action.
Third, I think this entire hubbub is overblown. Machamp is NOT as powerful as Galactic in MOST situations, but the donk evens out Machamp's chances. Kingdra is not dominant for a good reason - it takes patience to play it. Same for Gengar.
Fourth, if you wanted to remove some donk risk, I like PokePop's idea the best; and, in fact, it has been an idea of mine for a while. Best-of-3 smooths out the probabilities of donk which worries so many. Also, it takes away nerves, which is every Pokemon player's enemy. Best-of-threee? I'm cool as a cucumber.
I don't like the 3-Pokemon starter rule. It's either too random or too stringent. Too many tricks to pull there also. I won't go into every one because I'm sure you can figure them out. ;-)
I KIND OF like the Supporter rule, but, as was pointed out, the new Supporters (like Flint) make the prospect of donk even MORE possible.
Fifth, as a deck builder, I empathize with the plight of those who do likewise and are still donked. However, this game is going to be 50% luck no matter HOW you slice it. You can build the world's greatest deck and just not draw anything! So we need to be careful how we establish where luck ends and skill begins. Personally, I feel that if you can build a deck that consistently donks, you're a deck-building genius. I can only get 1, maybe 2, per Swiss using Champ.
Second, about deck-building: I find that in a 6-game Swiss, I will play 4-5 long games and 1 short or donk. The ration to me doesn't warrant any action.
Third, I think this entire hubbub is overblown. Machamp is NOT as powerful as Galactic in MOST situations, but the donk evens out Machamp's chances. Kingdra is not dominant for a good reason - it takes patience to play it. Same for Gengar.
Fourth, if you wanted to remove some donk risk, I like PokePop's idea the best; and, in fact, it has been an idea of mine for a while. Best-of-3 smooths out the probabilities of donk which worries so many. Also, it takes away nerves, which is every Pokemon player's enemy. Best-of-threee? I'm cool as a cucumber.
I don't like the 3-Pokemon starter rule. It's either too random or too stringent. Too many tricks to pull there also. I won't go into every one because I'm sure you can figure them out. ;-)
I KIND OF like the Supporter rule, but, as was pointed out, the new Supporters (like Flint) make the prospect of donk even MORE possible.
Fifth, as a deck builder, I empathize with the plight of those who do likewise and are still donked. However, this game is going to be 50% luck no matter HOW you slice it. You can build the world's greatest deck and just not draw anything! So we need to be careful how we establish where luck ends and skill begins. Personally, I feel that if you can build a deck that consistently donks, you're a deck-building genius. I can only get 1, maybe 2, per Swiss using Champ.
Austino
New Member
I really can't belive it's gotten to the point where higher end players are seriously whining about decks. While it would be easy to just say, "Stop whining and play", that is rude and doesn't get anyone anywhere. I do think that it is fair to point out that there are a LOT of ways to avoid T1/T2 KO's. The format has given us 90% basic decks, Call Energy, Call for Family attacks, Unown G, no T/S/S first turn, and other methods that are actually keeping the game balanced.
G decks won a lot of States/Regionals (along with GG, AMU, Gengar, etc) going to say that Donks aren't dominating the format. Skilled players who put a lot of effort into their deck still tend to do well, as shown by who's won what over the past Premier Events. The game needs a level of luck for the players who aren't as "seasoned" as the veterans. Keep in mind this IS a childrens game, and if the kids can't have fun with it, then PUI is doing something wrong.
Still, to offer a solution to the bickering, I agree that Bo3 is the way to go. Just in case you do get T1/2d, you have a shot at redeeming yourself. If you still get beat, then the opponent's deck does what it's supposed to do and they did win by skill in building the deck that way. Another solution (regarding 3 starters) is that if you do, you have to flip over cards off the top of your deck until you hit a basic pokemon and it becomes your active.
G decks won a lot of States/Regionals (along with GG, AMU, Gengar, etc) going to say that Donks aren't dominating the format. Skilled players who put a lot of effort into their deck still tend to do well, as shown by who's won what over the past Premier Events. The game needs a level of luck for the players who aren't as "seasoned" as the veterans. Keep in mind this IS a childrens game, and if the kids can't have fun with it, then PUI is doing something wrong.
Still, to offer a solution to the bickering, I agree that Bo3 is the way to go. Just in case you do get T1/2d, you have a shot at redeeming yourself. If you still get beat, then the opponent's deck does what it's supposed to do and they did win by skill in building the deck that way. Another solution (regarding 3 starters) is that if you do, you have to flip over cards off the top of your deck until you hit a basic pokemon and it becomes your active.
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Naki Feralkin
New Member
This would not be a bad idea by any means. I cannot say that I've suffered too many donks through states and regionals (States I had one really bad matchup versus Machamp, but it wasn't a donk), but I can see where everyone is coming from with the donks. I played Gengar at Regionals, I did actually donk out 2 of my opponents, but by Turn 2. I gave them a chance to set up and they could not respond. (I did play a friendly with my speed Poliwrath deck in which case I did T1... but thats a different story)
I really really like the idea of Best out of 3 if the time is kept short. Magic sits at a 40-45 minute time limit and the matches typically do move quickly, and Pokemon could probably do the same, the only differences would obviously be the much increased amounts of SD that would occur.
I like the idea of 3 pokemon, however I don't like the possibilities it could bring, especially in a format dominated by SP pokemon that can easily get a ridiculous advantage over an opponent's 1st turn. Lets assume you're playing a straight, fair game. You're running an SP deck, your opponent is running Flygon. You go first, have a decent hand with a couple trainers and supporters, but you're sitting on one Dialga G. You lay your metal, use this ability (Play 3 pokes on the field) and say go.
Heres where it gets interesting. Your opponent goes to drop Uxie, and well, due to the 3 pokemon you just nabbed, you just put yourself into the range of 3 SP pokemon and you bam power spray them. Now, I know its evening the odds a little bit, but in this situation, aren't we back to square one? I mean yeah, they can still use supporters and all.. I dunno, its not a bad idea, but a lot of things could easily be exploited from it. (Speedrill increased without having to waste a turn of a supporter on Roseanne? Thats a really big thing.)
I personally think player 1 should be allowed to play supporters/trainers to allow them time to set up for a defensive action, but not be allowed to attack so they cannot donk their opponent, perhaps limiting this to allow Call Energy to still be used.
I understand its an issue, but it can be a difficult fix. Theres a ton of factors to think about.
Killax
New Member
Like mentioned by others (and I've been out of the game for a couple of months) the donk "problem" isnt that big, it is a feat on it's own to acomplish it. And as I see the new cards sprouting on pokebeach I think I just have to say that donking will not be as big of a problem as it was when donkchamp just came out. Appart from that the other donkers also need to be very lucky, like sableye etc.
Now the other idea like 3 starter pokemon has been mentioned, it would be to easy to choose the best ones and alter the game to much. Also certain combos would be way to powerfull! (as much as the lucky donk is, yes)
The idea I do like though, is the "Your opponent does not have an active Pokemon at the end of their turn. He/she loses the game". This would indeed mean that you could play some supporters and counter it. However I also would like to have some extra game-time then because it can thake a while to try and make up a counter (if even useable to let you win the game)
All in all, I think the last mentioned rule would be a cool one. Maby it wouldn't help that much in certain cases but it would (almost) surely lead to: KO 6 pokemon for the win, which is fine by me.
Cheers,
Now the other idea like 3 starter pokemon has been mentioned, it would be to easy to choose the best ones and alter the game to much. Also certain combos would be way to powerfull! (as much as the lucky donk is, yes)
The idea I do like though, is the "Your opponent does not have an active Pokemon at the end of their turn. He/she loses the game". This would indeed mean that you could play some supporters and counter it. However I also would like to have some extra game-time then because it can thake a while to try and make up a counter (if even useable to let you win the game)
All in all, I think the last mentioned rule would be a cool one. Maby it wouldn't help that much in certain cases but it would (almost) surely lead to: KO 6 pokemon for the win, which is fine by me.
Cheers,
darkartisan
New Member
That's actually a very very good idea. I vote this idea.
yoyofsho16
New Member
The reason why optional mulligan doesn't work in Pokemon:
Every time you Mulligan in Magic, you draw 1 less card than you did before. In Pokemon, you MUST start with a basic.
If you had 1 card and it wasn't a basic/you didn't like it, what do you do? Draw 0? Lose?
SlimeyGrimey
New Member
Best of 3 with a short time limit gives more of an advantage to fast decks such as Machamp and Kingdra. If they can pull off a quick win in either the first or second game they basically win by default in the third game that almost certainly will be sudden death. This 'solution' just gives the illusion of fixing the problem. After getting donked in game 1, I think it would be pretty rare for a deck that attempts to play a 6 prize game to actually pull off 2 in a row within the time limit.
If you don't have a Basic Pokmeon you should be required to just draw the same amount of cards you previously did. Say you mulliganed once on purpose, and went to 6. Then you should be required to draw 6 until you have a Basic. We could also just make it ONE optional mulligan and not infinite like Magic has.
I agree with Gordon about the best of 3 thing in 45 minutes. Even if Machamp or Kingdra LOSE a Game 1, there is potential for them to win Games 2 and 3 in very little time. To me, winning two short games to one drawn out, legitimate game is really lame. I would rather just have one game than that.
I agree with Gordon about the best of 3 thing in 45 minutes. Even if Machamp or Kingdra LOSE a Game 1, there is potential for them to win Games 2 and 3 in very little time. To me, winning two short games to one drawn out, legitimate game is really lame. I would rather just have one game than that.
stthomian1
New Member
I completely support jimmy on his ideas to change the current T1 donk.
I can't help but wonder if pokemon understands that if they don't change the T1 donk players will get bored and start playing other tcg (yu gi oh, magic, the gathering, etc...).
I can't help but wonder if pokemon understands that if they don't change the T1 donk players will get bored and start playing other tcg (yu gi oh, magic, the gathering, etc...).
how about for the first turn player, instead of drawing a card for his/her turn, he or she may choose to search his/her deck for a basic pokemon/fossil and put it into his/her hand if he/she has only 1 pokemon in play. If this option is used, the turn 1 player can only then put exactly 1 pokemon from their hand to his/her bench for the rest of the turn.(so players can't just put one active pokemon and use this optional search when they have another basic in their opening hand). just a suggestion
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Suicide
New Member
While I support some of what Jimmy proposes I cannot support the idea of being able to search out pokemon to fill your bench. This would eliminate the usefulness of many cards and require people to put less thought into their decks. If you know that you'll be allowed to search for pokemon if you have a poor start you can plan for bad starts just to get your key pokemon into play. SP decks would love a ruling like this where there strategy may require certain pokemon to be on the field.
While I am upset about the way the game is going I would be even more upset if that change to the game was made. Before we had pokemon that could actively donk on the first turn there were times when, during the Delta Species block, in which certain decks had the potential to donk if their opponent only had one pokemon. While this was generally not considered very common nothing was done about it then.
However I would be in full support of allowing the usage of supporters on the first turn or of giving players one optional Mulligan that they could use. The uasage of supporters would allow for better first turns other than "I attach energy go". The mulligan would allow for players to make a choice about whether or not to keep a hand. Additionally a Mulligan doesn't always give you a better hand. However I see none of this happening because of the fact that the luck factor is always being increased on how drastically it affects the game.
While I am upset about the way the game is going I would be even more upset if that change to the game was made. Before we had pokemon that could actively donk on the first turn there were times when, during the Delta Species block, in which certain decks had the potential to donk if their opponent only had one pokemon. While this was generally not considered very common nothing was done about it then.
However I would be in full support of allowing the usage of supporters on the first turn or of giving players one optional Mulligan that they could use. The uasage of supporters would allow for better first turns other than "I attach energy go". The mulligan would allow for players to make a choice about whether or not to keep a hand. Additionally a Mulligan doesn't always give you a better hand. However I see none of this happening because of the fact that the luck factor is always being increased on how drastically it affects the game.
drrty byl
New Member
I vote for best 2/3 using the existing time limit. It simply means more games [fun-O!!] for all participants, regardless of turn 1/2/108 wins.
The "select your Pokemon" idea is a leap from how the game has been played -- and as others have pointed out, would render attacks such as "Call for Family" or "Call Energy" almost useless.
The current format seems well-suited for rogues: there were all kinds of crazy combos floating around at Regionals.
The "select your Pokemon" idea is a leap from how the game has been played -- and as others have pointed out, would render attacks such as "Call for Family" or "Call Energy" almost useless.
The current format seems well-suited for rogues: there were all kinds of crazy combos floating around at Regionals.
evil umbreon
New Member
true but u dont need to k.o there basic pokemon ill attach 2 energy to my dialga g and ill use deafon go ahead also u can attach 2 energy to a honchkrow and play down crobat and do 50 damage witch is way to close to a k.o i would not be in favor of that AT ALL im in agreement with jimmy on this. i do believe we need a change and we have some ideas here its just the fact of the ppl taking notice and changeing these things.