What is "the play" for Pokemon USA regarding Lost world?

[Prime]

Uhm... ff Lost World is already that strong with 3 or 4 prizes, how overpowered would it be in a format with 6 prizes?

You can't look at the game just from the prize difference. They also only have 30-card decks with these 3-prize tournaments, meaning that a Professor Oak's New Theory nets them 1/5 of their deck (would be 12 cards for us) or a Cynthia's Feelings nets them almost 1/3 of their deck. It doesn't seem hard to draw most of your deck with these 30-card decks and it would make it easier to setup the combos and draw into the stadiums when you need it. Also, you're opponent doesn't have 3 Luxray GL or 3 Kingdra that they can recover with, they only have 2, meaning that Lost Zoning 1-2 of their main attacker can be devastating.

A different format means a lot of differences in how the game is played and which decks have a large advantage. Just because a deck does well in Japan doesn't mean it's going to do equally well if not better here.

A "few" of your friends spoke with a "few" japanese players who told you gengar/lost zone was powerful. Because of this, and I am stretching your new comment to overlap your previous one, all the japanese players are saying that the mechanic is broken. :/

Vilegar isn't actually an "anti-SP-aimed" deck.

I'd agree with you that Vilegar was not an anti-SP deck but the combo of the deck did put a big damper on SP decks, so we can say it was as much of an SP counter as an un-anti-SP deck can get. It pretty much counters the SP decks by restricting their trainers, the trainers that make SP so powerful.

But yes, the format wasn't the best.

That's what I'm saying. How could you be wanting to go back to the BR format for Cities? I'd take any kind of Gengar dominance format over the same old boring SP/anti-SP(okay, VileGar too) format.

However, Battle Roads are not competitive tournaments, and many players come up with tier 2 decks, making the format still interesting.

So for cities, players are going to start pulling out their tier 1 decks, meaning even more SP.

For City Championships, I expect new cards like Twins or Rescue Energy to make the format more interesting and boost non-SP-decks. Exspecially Twins helps slower decks to keep up.

I agree, but I don't know how much. Rescue Energy has very few actual uses in various decks. You can't really tech it into Machamp or Jumpluff because they need Fighting or Grass energy for their main attacks. You can try to tech it in, but it will lower consistency when you start with Basic-RC-Stage2 and that special energy. Rescue Energy makes one deck, Gyarados, a lot better, but doesn't do much for VileGar (same energy issue). If anything, it gets tech'd into a deck +2 and it doesn't make a big difference overall.

Twins/Blackbelt will make some impact, I think, but then again, SP can use them too. The only thing worse than Cyrus going to get a Supporter/Energy/Trainer is Twins going to get 2 of anything, and SP decks can search out each supporter the turn before they go low on prizes in order to guarantee using it effectively.

But none of the setup decks would have a chance against Lost World Gengar.

Why such a broad statement? Where's your proof that all of the setup decks have no chance against Lost World Gengar? Are you falling back onto what your friends said that the japanese players said? I wonder how many setup decks are in Japan's tournament format...

Also, how do setup decks fair against SP/stage 2 one-energy attack decks? I wouldn't think any better.

Why is it that Gengar/Lost World is a horrible disease to the format yet the disease that is already spread all over the format is not as bad?

My last statement is this, nobody knows exactly how Gengar/Lost Zone would affect the format. Nobody is a time traveler, and no japanese player or US player knows exactly how much of an impact it will have. Before we start saying that Gengar/Lost Zone would destroy the game, let's actually wait till after States and see how it affects the format. It may actually have a positive effect on the format for all we know!

It's almost discrimination. People don't know much about the card mechanic, they don't know how strong it is, or how much of an impact it will have on the format, yet they fear bad things coming from it, so they automatically start bad mouthing it. Wow, that is most definitely discrimination.

 

[losjackal]

My last statement is this, nobody knows exactly how Gengar/Lost Zone would affect the format. Nobody is a time traveler, and no japanese player or US player knows exactly how much of an impact it will have. Before we start saying that Gengar/Lost Zone would destroy the game, let's actually wait till after States and see how it affects the format. It may actually have a positive effect on the format for all we know!

It's almost discrimination. People don't know much about the card mechanic, they don't know how strong it is, or how much of an impact it will have on the format, yet they fear bad things coming from it, so they automatically start bad mouthing it. Wow, that is most definitely discrimination.

Or, it's called a forecast. Which is exactly what someone in The Pokemon Company has to do when deciding whether to publish a card or not. So all these commenters are just trying to follow the same logic and forecast the outcome.

 

[Prime]

Or, it's called a forecast. Which is exactly what someone in The Pokemon Company has to do when deciding whether to publish a card or not. So all these commenters are just trying to follow the same logic and forecast the outcome.

There's very little, "I think..." being used and more "I know...". Nobody knows, not even the US players that tested before the set was released. They have an educated opinion, but they can't state anything for fact.

Also, nobody knows exactly why TPCi moved the card from the set. Some people think it was because of how powerful it was, that it'd destroy the format, but we're going to get it in the next set, so if it's going to destroy the format, it's going to do it then. There isn't going to be a counter to it in B&W.

Also, if TPCi is deciding for themselves which cards are overpowered and withholding them for a set, why didn't they mess with Luxray GL Lv.X, or any of the SP trainer/supporters? If they can see Lost World dominance a few sets before, how can they not predict how SP is going to own the format for the next 2-3 years?

Personally, I feel TPCi moved the cards due to the Lost Zone effect. I think someone posted in another thread that most of the 12 cards that were removed from the set had an element tied to the Lost Zone. I know the Snorlax discarded energy to it, etc, etc. Perhaps TPCi want to produce a Lost Zone combo pack with the 12 cards in it. Who knows, we may get it before Cities start...

My final comment is that to forecast, one must be educated. You have to go to college before you can become a weather man (or woman). Same thing here. Too many people are forecasting a hurricane when they've never even walked outside and measured the winds.

 

[losjackal]

"I know" vs. "I think" is just hyperbole and not worth arguing about. This is an Internet forum, so unless Biggie says it, it's all just opinion. Don't we all know that? And some opinions are more informed that others, based on experience. I've been playing for 6 months, so it's safe to say Ruiner's forecast would be more accurate than mine. Moving on...

Also, nobody knows exactly why TPCi moved the card from the set. Some people think it was because of how powerful it was, that it'd destroy the format, but we're going to get it in the next set, so if it's going to destroy the format, it's going to do it then. There isn't going to be a counter to it in B&W.

Also, if TPCi is deciding for themselves which cards are overpowered and withholding them for a set, why didn't they mess with Luxray GL Lv.X, or any of the SP trainer/supporters? If they can see Lost World dominance a few sets before, how can they not predict how SP is going to own the format for the next 2-3 years?

Personally, I feel TPCi moved the cards due to the Lost Zone effect. I think someone posted in another thread that most of the 12 cards that were removed from the set had an element tied to the Lost Zone. I know the Snorlax discarded energy to it, etc, etc. Perhaps TPCi want to produce a Lost Zone combo pack with the 12 cards in it. Who knows, we may get it before Cities start...

Now this is interesting from a product development perspective. You're right that some of the Lost Zone support was cut, but Gengar Prime remained...probably because they wanted to keep all the Primes together in this final (?) HGSS set. There is precedent with SP, because it's arguable that Luxray GL Lv X isn't broken by itself, and in fact the rise of the Luxchomp deck happened over the course of four sets:

1. Cyrus engine in Platinum
2. Luxray GL and SP Radar in Rising Rivals
3. Garchomp C in Supreme Victors
4. Double-Colorless Energy in HeartGold-SoulSilver

Is the same thing going to happen with the new game mechanic of Lost World? Maybe, and TPC is choosing to spread it out for whatever reason. If I were in their shoes, I'm probably waiting to see how Gengar Prime and banishing a Level X to the Lost Zone affects the meta by itself. I guess what has people up in arms is what will the overall meta be by the time Nationals and Worlds rolls around if Lost World is printed at all.

 

[MattPL]

Yeah, because Pokemon broke a promise to release Lost World, right?

No.

YOU decided to go on the internet and read JPN spoilers.

YOU decided to ASSUME Lost World would be in the set.

No-one is 'giving you the finger'.

You guessed wrong, that's all. Stop blaming Pokemon for your mistake.

Thanks, I kinda wanted someone to say this. :thumb:

 

[DarkMagnus]

Also, you're opponent doesn't have 3 Luxray GL or 3 Kingdra that they can recover with, they only have 2, meaning that Lost Zoning 1-2 of their main attacker can be devastating.

i think this is what everyone is missing when they talk about how it dominates the japanise metagame. they are playing with a MAX 2 of in the 30 card market, so while we play a 2-2 chomp cX in our decks and atleast a 2-1 dialga GX to stop the Gengar. they only have at best a 1-1 of chomp, luxray and dialga in there deck i think that is what makes the diffrence. where we are able to bench a chomp while a chompX sits on the board and we turn the chomp X the turn we advance the other chomp to level up or what ever else we might do to stop Gengar, they dont seam to have the same options as us.

 

[losjackal]

It's true that in a 30 card build, Lost Zoning one of the Luxrays or Garchomps pretty much ends the game for them.

But in a 60 card build with a 2-2 line, the Luxchomp player can probably afford to have one of their Level X's sent to the LZ (as long as the other isn't prized), but losing one of the ordinary Luxray GL or Garhomp C's slows their game down too. Let's say you happen to catch one of these in their hand and send it to the LZ. That leaves them with one Basic, and 2 of the Level X. When they put down the other Basic, they must wait a turn to play the Level X. That's Gengar Prime's opportunity to send that one to the LZ too. The Luxchomp deck depends on Poke-turns, so each turn is an opportunity to Lost Zone the X. With this significantly slower deck, it will be very difficult for Luxchomp to take 6 prizes. (It may still win before the Gengar Prime decks gets set up, but that's not what we're debating here.)

So the impact of Hurl into Darkness scales just fine when you double the prize count. In fact, it gives the Gengar Prime player even more time to abuse a card like Twins.

 

[xcfrisco]

I think they should make special boxes of Lost World tissues for people who can't stop crying over it.

I would pay top dollar for that box of tissues.


Lol, I hope the powers at be choose to not print the card. But if its in our next set, i wont freak and quit playing pokemon or anything as some people in the other threads have declared. I also think that making potentially staple cards any sort of hard to get promo is a terrible idea.

Put it in a tin! That should fix bawwing in the "Legendary Dog tins are teh suck" thread too. You'd kill two brids with one stone right there and the complaining on pokegym would drop by like 19842109640127%! :fire::lightning:

 

[Jaeger]

Or everybody would complan they have to spend a ton of money to get playable cards. No win scenerio.

 

[Politoed666]

Oh my God, people, it doesn't ruin the format... Isn't anyone else sick of LuxChomp's dominance? Come on, I'd love to see a viable stage-2 deck that gives SPs a run for their money.

I hope they release it, I really do.

 

[Prime]

It's true that in a 30 card build, Lost Zoning one of the Luxrays or Garchomps pretty much ends the game for them.

But in a 60 card build with a 2-2 line, the Luxchomp player can probably afford to have one of their Level X's sent to the LZ (as long as the other isn't prized), but losing one of the ordinary Luxray GL or Garhomp C's slows their game down too. Let's say you happen to catch one of these in their hand and send it to the LZ. That leaves them with one Basic, and 2 of the Level X. When they put down the other Basic, they must wait a turn to play the Level X. That's Gengar Prime's opportunity to send that one to the LZ too. The Luxchomp deck depends on Poke-turns, so each turn is an opportunity to Lost Zone the X. With this significantly slower deck, it will be very difficult for Luxchomp to take 6 prizes. (It may still win before the Gengar Prime decks gets set up, but that's not what we're debating here.)

So the impact of Hurl into Darkness scales just fine when you double the prize count. In fact, it gives the Gengar Prime player even more time to abuse a card like Twins.

I wouldn't say your first and last comment is equal. It can't scale "just fine" and yet be a totally different thing. In 30-card deck, any hurling is game over, in 60-cards, a player may still play around it.

And I find it interesting how you talk about this mechanic (sending to the LZ) with such passion yet was coming down on Lost World as being the plague upon the earth (my opinion of your posts). It seems to me that both Gengar Prime and Lost World are equally "broken" if either one is. Why do so many people condemn Lost World and not (as much) Gengar Prime?

 

[xcfrisco]

I wouldn't say your first and last comment is equal. It can't scale "just fine" and yet be a totally different thing. In 30-card deck, any hurling is game over, in 60-cards, a player may still play around it.

And I find it interesting how you talk about this mechanic (sending to the LZ) with such passion yet was coming down on Lost World as being the plague upon the earth (my opinion of your posts). It seems to me that both Gengar Prime and Lost World are equally "broken" if either one is. Why do so many people condemn Lost World and not (as much) Gengar Prime?

Naw they're not the same. You're not guaranteed to win a game if you manage to send 6 pokemon cards with gengar prime to the lost zone in our current metagame.

I've said this before though, if you've managed to send 6 pokemon cards from your opponents deck into the lost zone (something like 25% of the pokemon most decks play), you're probably doing pretty well for yourself. However, you could send 20 pokemon to the lost zone as it stands and still lose the match if you havent taken a prize but your opponent has.

Thats why Gengar Prime isn't broken (or very good without lost zone for that matter). You either gotta take prizes, deckout, or eliminate all pokemon from the field to win a pokemon match. Gengar Prime doesnt do any of those three remarkably better than most other pokemon cards.

Its the same thing with SP cards. They wouldn't have nearly the dominance they have right now without Poketurn (Luxrays best friend imo) or DCE/Egain (Chomps best friends). Put them all together, and you get all the complaining about SP.

 

[RB Golbat]

He meant that they are only broken with the existence of each other. Without Gengar Prime, Lost world would not have been nearly as broken as everyone makes it out to be, since most of the cards that would have sent pokemon to your opponents lost zone were not as reliable at putting Pokemon there. On the flip side, without Lost World, Gengar Prime isn't as broken, because it doesn't have a win condition that can (arguably) be met easier than get 6 prizes.

 

[conical]

I think they should make special boxes of Lost World tissues for people who can't stop crying over it.

Problem is, there'd only be 6 tissues per box. :/

Anyway, "the play" is that they'll probably release it next set, someone inside Pokemon of America has a sadistic sense of humor, and whoever they are earns mad props for that.:thumb: (Except they also held back Lost Remover, which I was more interested in :nonono

 

[sar86]

The only wrong play is to make it a Super Rare.

Should Pokemon have released Lost World with this set? Probably, without it many of the cards in the set will not see play now making people reluctant to spend the money on boxes.

When will Lost World be released? Probably in a filler set in February. Feb. is too early for B/W to come out so there will have to be a filler set (Much like PK 4 years ago) Expect Lost World to be in that set, then we can begin to worry about if Gengar Prime is broken or not (BTW... it's not... It'll have the same problem as most stage 2 decks)

Should people be crying about Lost World not being released? No! Deal with it! Pokemon doesn't have to release cards just because we want them. Pokemon has never released cards exactly as they came out in Japan, this shouldn't be a surprise to people

Should people be crying about the fact Lost World will still probably be released? No! Deal with it! There are ways to beat Lost World decks, it's not that broken. It's not as bad a PLOX was, I don't think it will even be a dominant as SP ever was. We'll just have to wait and see.

 

[Skull Hatter]

OPINIONS OPINIONS OPINIONS BLUH BLUH BLUH

I really hate sp. I don't play in tournaments to win because I know I can't beat sp. I'm not shelling out 80$/a box for 1 luxray lv x. If lost world can beat sp, it should have come out in this set. Why would they split the set up? Power Keepers wasn't the remainders of a set we were supposed to get earlier because PUSA liked Delta.

 

[chimecho22]

I read thru this thread that everyone keeps saying we are getting the lost zone cards in the Feb filler set. Where is this filler set getting cards from. Are there any primes or legends that Japan have that we don't here, not that i can think of. Also they would have to go and make a new Alph and so on and so on, at the moment it would consist of 13 LL cards. If Mew and Gengar prime were not in this set I would be sure there is a filler set but now.....

I think 2 things may happen. B/W may come here earlier than most people think and that the Lost Zone cards may never see the light of day over here. Shame though. They got everyone interested when they introduced the mechanic in Platinum but it got ignored due to SP. They really have butchered it badly. I suppose its still there as a play option but not as playable as what it could have been. Perhaps the Japanese players I spoke to at worlds were right when they told me it would be banned in english

Time will tell. Everyone getting their backs up about the will it or won't it are not really helping at all.

 

[yoshi1001]

In the end, this is a discussion about the dynamic nature of the metagame. If the metagame changes too slow, players lose interest because they feel they're playing the same games over and over. However, if the metagame changes too quickly players (maybe not the same ones) lose interest because they feel it's too difficult to keep up. The trick is to create a scenario in the middle and keep both players looking for change and those who are okay where they are remain happy. Throw into the unpredictability of how the metagame will react and you have a fairly unenviable scenario for TPCI. We'll see how they resolve it this time around.

 

[Tagrineth]

I have no problem with Lost World never being released in English. lol