Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Giving credit where credit is due. To Chris Fulop and Pokemon USA

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Sure part of what I do not like is forced by the current relative distribution, but there is still fixing that needs to be done in terms of best finish limits, and the system is still over reaching, or over designed, at the moment. Now I do believe PP wanted to limit the attendance effect by creating best finish limits, but the current system does not go far enough.

The BRs add no value to fairly or accurately determining if a player is better than those in his/her region or not, and (not to keep repeating myself), they are only an exercise in who can attend the most tournaments. That is not really going to change with a new distribution, but maybe BR can made insignificant enough to limit the effect.

Let me give an actual example. Let's say a player is only 3-4 points out of top 40. As you know, the distribution is quite tight. There essentially is no best limit at states-regionals. 4 of 5 means everyone will have to do all 5 for practical purposes (again needs to be 3 of 5 if best limit is actually going to mean anything). Most above average players will have maxed the best limits count on cities too by attending 6-8 tournaments. So the difference leading up to nationals is really only battle roads. Now if a player/parent starts driving to every single battle roads in their area, he/she will only be playing the very same opponents that he/she scored against (either for better or worse) in cities, states and regionals. The relative performance in ranking is already reliably established from those premier events. Battle roads becomes nothing but an exercise in who can attend the most of them to accumulate more points through their normal success rate of reaching top cut.

So as I keep saying, it is an exercise in attendance, not an exercise in skill, among the group of players in that range of ability, say top 20-60 placings in the rankings. And it is my opinion that the attendance demanded from current system (on the order of 20+ tournaments now) is too high, especially considering that many of these are going to require hotels and overnight stays to reach that number.

I get that PP wants CPs at all events, but there is no logical reason to have 5 levels of grading when 4 does the exact same thing just as well or even better. Forced attendance is a very bad reason to have so many levels and such high best finish limit counts. PP really should bring into any discussion on changes for next year a simple question: How many must attend tournaments should the system reasonably be driving the average to best players to attend?

My input is somewhere in the range of 12-16 max for a good player with a 65-75% top cut rate. That would mean reducing the total best finish limits across all levels to 8-12 tnmts instead of the current 18. So if you would want to put your more aggressive distribution on top of my limit suggestion, that would be fine with me:

National = 1 limit
Regional = 1 of 2
States = 2 of 3
Cities = 3 or 4 max
Battle Roads = 3 or 4 max

The above gives max of 12 best finish limits. Works perfectly! Ideally, I would rather see BR dropped all together, but this is a compromise.

PS. I do like your proposals for attendance kickers across the board.
 
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adding more inflation to a system that is inherently inflationary is unlikely to produce a fairer system. It is much more likely to exagerate differences.

CPs

- who you play does not matter
- how hard the opposition are does not mater
- where you finish matters.
- how many events you can attend matters. (with caps to somewhat limit the inflation)


Making big events more valuable under CP than small events will do nothing to increase attendance at the smaller events. Will do nothing to encourage new stores to run events. It will probably guarantee their demise.

The primary benefit of the CP system is that it provides a reason for stores to enter into Pokemon OP. The pure-reward inflationary nature of the CP system should be making players ask their local store to run events for the players.

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elo could have been fixed. But if it wasn't understood before then the fixes would not be understood either. One thing that the hike in attendances is suggesting is that elo was not understood.

i had an idea, and this seems complex and weird

but itd be cool if there could be a system of kicker points or some modification based on the density of CPs at a specific event.

if i go to FL states, and at the event is 100 masters, who have a combined total of 800 CPs, how does that stack to a state that might have 75 masters and 400 CPs?
does it even matter?


it might make it an easy way for "harder" areas to get more reward. then again a place with a lot of CPs might just be a lot of events, but the system kind of assumes that more CPs is indicative of more skill?

just a half-baked idea i had about possibly improving this system.
 
Ryan, you're basically talking about implementing ELO again, just without the Play-At-Risk portion...
 
in a sense, yeah. in the sense that elo tries to quantify skill based on past performances in tournaments. but with a different method entirely.
 
The reason players will earn more points at Cities on average than at States & Regionals are because they play more Cities tournaments. The reason there's more Cities tournaments are because they are just that...Cities tournaments.

This idea that it's wrong that someone gained more points over two months of playing City Championships, including a Marathon than they did playing three to five State & Regional Championships is nonsense. They absolutely should gain more points by playing and doing well at so many events. City Championships are the heart of a Pokémon TCG season. They should be the core of your rating.

Regarding the comments about ELO, ELO is actually a lot more similar to Championship Points than I realized. Each have a couple small advantages and disadvantages.

The biggest and most significant disadvantage of ELO is that is produces incentives for people not to play, with players often skipping Nationals and dropping from tournaments after Swiss. Those that do stick around for the Top Cut are penalized for losing their first game in the Top Cut and would have been better off dropping. The biggest disadvantage of Championship Points is that it puts a lot of luck into players' resistances. Those that miss the cut on resistance are punished severely, getting 0 points. Miss Top 4 at a City Championship by placing 5th and you earn 0 Championship Points. Squeeze in at 4th and you've earned a minimum of 4, possibly 6. Another small issue with Championship Points are they do not reward players for winning larger tournaments. Win a 12-person City Championship in Barrow, Alaska and you earn the same amount of points as a player winning a Florida Marathon City Championship. Both systems will identify most of the best players, but not perfectly. Both systems have a tremendous flaw of being unable to distinguish weaker areas from stronger ones. ELO is all relative, so if you are confined to a weaker area, players that perform the same in a stronger area will have similar or identical ratings. As for Championship Points, players who win small, weak tournaments gain the same as those that win large, tough ones. Overall, though, I still prefer Championship Points.

I just do not see why BR needs to be in the mix. Forcing us to drive to as many spring BRs as possible to get that 4-6 point extra kick in the standings is just insanity. It is too much pressure on what should be the lowest level event. Everything right now is structured on how many weekends can you drive hours to attend events, or can you waste even more vacation time (after nationals and maybe a worlds if you are good enough) to attend marathons. The best limit numbers are far too high.

You can still qualify for Worlds without playing Battle Roads. I would not say it is unreasonably difficult, either.

I do think you have a point about the amount of events to attend becoming quite high, but also keep in consideration this is to qualify for the World Championships. Nothing forces you to compete in all these events unless you are determined to qualify for Worlds. For such a prestigious tournament, shouldn't we expect both skill and dedication?
 
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About Battle Roads, I think it's ok to provide CP for them, but the best-finish-limit is way too high. They should be more casual tournaments that quite add a bonus to your CP, and not a series where you have high benefits from if you win 8.

That makes me feel Battle Roads are more important than CCs, cause you have to play more of them, and you get special rewards for 1st to 3rd (which got some good value at the beginning) while CCs only provide some for the 1st - if anything.

As usual, I played fun decks at Battle Roads (and in this format you can't really win with them), now I realized that I missed one of the most important chances to win prizes and CP. =/
 
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yeah, i only went to 3, i played 'good' decks(MagneBoar for fun and then MegaJudge b/c I wanted a victory cup :p
but had i gone to say 8, which i easily could've done, i'd be much better off...tbh CP's took the fun out of BR's for me now, just show up w/ a fun deck and just play it...but i guess not....
also i can attest to what jason said-9th place sux.....
 
The top 10 to maybe top 15 will probably be able to qualify without BRs for sure. There is a level of elite player that will be able to bypass some tnmts; however, the spread is so tight from 20th to even 60th-70th (and because of the current point distribution), that BR is a very big differentiator before nationals. Of course, nationals will create spread among players, but it hasn't been played yet at spring BR, so no one will know if they step back and bypass some BRs or he/she has to go gangbusters to ensure a top 40.

Yes it takes commitment, but at 18 tnmt best limits, 19 for the 5th states-regionals, maybe 21-22 for extra cities, it is very easy to be in the range of 22 tnmts for the year. Now this doesn't even take in pre-release that some like to attend, or even higher cities/BR attendance. So take away Thanksgiving, Christmas (now being dominated by marathons), and at least 4 more holiday weekends, and the system is set up to have to bring one's best game to compulsory (if you want to have any chance of qualifying) events for an average higher than every other weekend year in and year out. Then add in testing new decks and practice created by the format changes. This is just simply too high, especially for juniors/parents, and especially considering now that our travel has quintupled to reach that number. It is higher competition count than many college sports!! It will limit the game in the long run by shear burnout.

I echo the comments about now never being able to step back and just play for fun under this system. My son can never play the lesser deck that he just wants to play, because every event is too important. It really hurts to tell him he must play his best deck if he wants to qualify (this has already happened twice for me!) because he hasn't maxed his limits yet, and he never gets to play something else but our best deck at that time. This is just wrong. Flat out wrong, and it will add to the burnout that is going to occur. The current best limit numbers are essentially the same or very close to having no limits at all for practical purposes.

Please bring the compulsory attendance down to avg of max every 3rd weekend over a 46-47 week schedule, or in other words 16 compulsory tnmts which works out to a best finish limit of no more than 12 for the upper player as I mapped out before. Please!! Give players the room to try out new ideas, just have fun at a cities or two, or be able to spend an extra weekend with their family without sacrificing their entire season.
 
There needs to be a cap on the number of Citys that count towards CP's

http://www.pokemon.com/us/organized-play/championship-series/championship-points/ said:
Best Finish Limits
Each event series also has a Best Finish Limit, where a player's Best X Finishes are counted into that limit. For example, the Best Finish Limit for Battle Roads is 8. If a player participates in 6 Battle Road Autumn events and 5 Battle Road Spring events, only that player's best 8 finishes from the 11 Battle Roads they attended will count towards their final Championship Points total.

...

City Championships

Best Finish Limit: 5

Knowing is half the battle.
 
No what I mean is there needs to be a cap on the number of Citys you can go to where earning CP is possible. Such as best finish limit=5 number of Citys to earn them in =10
 
No what I mean is there needs to be a cap on the number of Citys you can go to where earning CP is possible. Such as best finish limit=5 number of Citys to earn them in =10

Nah that doesn't work because it leads to a situation where the last few cities in a given area will be very soft and be free points for those who waited. It's fine the way it is now, 10~ cities is more than enough for a decent player to get 5 finishes and honestly if people want to hit up 20+ cities, they should be able to - I'll get just as many points as most of them in my 10.
 
No what I mean is there needs to be a cap on the number of Citys you can go to where earning CP is possible. Such as best finish limit=5 number of Citys to earn them in =10

Enforcing that would put me in the position of having to say “You play our game too much, now you’re in trouble”. No thanks.
 
Isn't that what the best finish limit does anyway?

Nope. How many people actually maxxed out their Best Finish Limit for both BRs and Cities? Can't be too many. If you've maxxed out your BFLs already, you're already a 1% of 1% kind of player.
 
Enforcing that would put me in the position of having to say “You play our game too much, now you’re in trouble”. No thanks.

I'm not saying stop them from playing more than 10, I'm saying only allow the first 10 of them as possible ways to earn cps. if they want to continue to play and earn prizes/block points than by all means go for it.
 
I'm not saying stop them from playing more than 10, I'm saying only allow the first 10 of them as possible ways to earn cps. if they want to continue to play and earn prizes/block points than by all means go for it.

Which essentially means they won't waste time going to tournaments if they can't earn points, which will lead to late cities being much easier and mediocre players getting mroe points simply by skipping a few early cities.

Honestly, the best way is to divide invites by region instead of North America, that way, everyone is competiting with their own area for a proportionally fair amount of invites.
 
Which essentially means they won't waste time going to tournaments if they can't earn points, which will lead to late cities being much easier and mediocre players getting mroe points simply by skipping a few early cities.

Honestly, the best way is to divide invites by region instead of North America, that way, everyone is competiting with their own area for a proportionally fair amount of invites.

I don't know about that, am I weird to think that 10 Citys is a lot? Most people I know of Maxed out at the 8-12 range.
 
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