Espeon
- Thread starter Pikajew1213
- Start date
Just Play A 3-3 Kingdra
It works >_> Dont knock it till ya try it.
You mean 3-3-3 :biggrin:
Pikajew1213
New Member
I'm honestly gonna say I'm running espeon at this point if a kids like wow this deck won nats I'm gonna play it thats either gonna make a person go
1: this decks great I'll play it!
2: this decks scary espeon tech!
3: Meh
1: this decks great I'll play it!
2: this decks scary espeon tech!
3: Meh
Naki Feralkin
New Member
Remember that Unown G guy that was so bad that everyone ran two of in every deck back in the SP variants?
Yeaaaaaahh.. I'll take the Call for Family Eevee and an Espeon over an auto loss to a bad deck I shouldn't be losing to because my opponent can't flip tails. Doesn't ruin any consistency at all. (And I cut two cards that were unnecessary to put them in, so I lost nothing in return)
Also: To those of you saying you're going to catcher my Espeon... How, pray tell are you going to do that and still actually do well in swiss? You ruin your consistency so hard and VVV is already a tightly knit deck as is. Get the Trainer Lock out or lose 3-4 prizes. Nuff said.
Yeaaaaaahh.. I'll take the Call for Family Eevee and an Espeon over an auto loss to a bad deck I shouldn't be losing to because my opponent can't flip tails. Doesn't ruin any consistency at all. (And I cut two cards that were unnecessary to put them in, so I lost nothing in return)
Also: To those of you saying you're going to catcher my Espeon... How, pray tell are you going to do that and still actually do well in swiss? You ruin your consistency so hard and VVV is already a tightly knit deck as is. Get the Trainer Lock out or lose 3-4 prizes. Nuff said.
HerpTheDerp
New Member
What I foresee happening is all the decks that run Espeon WILL win against the very few lock decks. Then lose to the mirror match, which also won against the lock deck WITHOUT Espeon because they do not need it, due to inconsistency from having a now useless line-up in their decks. We have done fine against lock decks without Espeon up until this point, I don't see why we would need it now.
Naki Feralkin
New Member
^ Good argument, however the lock decks that I've done well against didn't initially have 130 HP's and were easy to KO. I can definitely say Zekrom variants do not need Espeon because all they need to do is get ahead and stay ahead the entire time (even one good heads flip from a Tynamo ruins Ice Creams day) even through the trainer lock. They don't have a 2 prize buffer to worry about, and its not really a factor with Zekrom because you really can just stay ahead in prizes the entire game if thats the case. Of course, I've seem smart VVV decks running Bellossom and/or Pokemon Center, so I'm not even sure THAT'S a good idea either.
Darkrai variants don't have it quite as easy because there is no paralysis flip Tynamo there to help you gain an edge on a Vanilluxe, You can't OHKO a Vanilluxe, and worse, you may not be able to THKO a Victini with the Pokemon Center or the Bellossom either.
This argument would hold water if this were the Mew variant, in which you could easily one shot Mew's all day and keep an even count on the prizes (especially off a T1-2 Darkrai EX). Unfortunately, this is no longer the case, as the deck has to now deal with 130 HP Ice Cream's, which cannot be one shot by anything in the format (barring the chunky Zekrom EX/Reshiram EX's.). I've had a 3 prize lead on Ice Cream diminished to a loss simply because it never flipped the quad tails. (And killing victini's wasn't an option because he had a Bellossom on the field.)
Also, the argument in consistency is a non-factor. Eevee has Call for Family which is a phenomenal starter any way you look at it. Assume I don't get a dual ball or I go 0/8 on Dual Ball flips (HAS HAPPENED BEFORE ON MANY OCCASIONS FOR ME), I now at least have a buffer to get my basics out of the deck. I cut one dark energy and a Skyarrow Bridge from my deck to put them in (Had 10 Dark's before, 3 Skyarrows.) My argument towards doing this, is I have Dark Patch's for energies, so essentially, the deck has 9 (+3) Dark's anyways (due to recyclables), and Skyarrow is a situational card that I ran 3 of for Tornadus EX donk factor (which I will admit I've only done ONE TIME since I switched from CMT to DTEX, and I've been playing this deck for 4 battle roads.). If I'm worried about Skyarrow never hitting the field, that's a delusion as well, considering most decks not named Ice Cream run 2-3 anyways, and AFTER they're on the field, they're a waste of space in your hand.
So, I fail to see where my consistency went..? (If its any consolation I'm 17-7 with DTEX overall with two different variants, and two top cuts, with one win. The only changes I made were to SSU numbers and other minor things) It hasn't left at all. Even after putting the Espeon in 2 days ago, I've noticed little to no differences, except that I don't always require Espeon. Its a tech, its not going to be used in every single game. I'd rather have the guaranteed win against a gimmick deck that can beat me and still do well against the mirror (which I have been. My losses are against random things and Zek/Terra)... And on that argument, if these lists are all splashing Espeon anyways, I fail to see how thats effecting the mirror in any way.
Just my opinion. Play what you want. I'm staying safe.
Pikajew1213
New Member
^zeels also have issues of running out of non ex attackers once an ex is out koing with our mr ice cream gives you two prizes
^ Any way you look at it, a Vanillux that never flips tails will always get two prizes anyways (without Espeon in play). Nothing non-EX can OHKO that thing, save Klinklang I guess. So at best you're going to 2HKO it with 2 non-EX attackers, or OHKO it with a single EX. The only two real candidates for the OHKO play are Mewtwo EX and Zekrom EX (Reshiram is pretty unlikely to see play), and most decks can manage to score at least one OHKO with Mewtwo EX at some point in the game. The advantage to using non-EX attackers, imo, isn't that they give two less prizes... it's that they make Vanilluxe flip more and this give more chances for the quad tails. Example: Vanilluxe has to deal 180 damage for Darkrai EX, but 220 for two Thundurus... 260 for two Terrakion, etc.
Pikajew1213
New Member
^scizor prime nuff said
lol
lol
Because I'm sure people are going to be playing that. . .
Anyway, I admit I am also a little on the fence about Espeon. I'm like 90% sure I'm not going to run it, but it is AWFULLY tempting. It goes and turns a 40-60 mathup into an autowin for basically any deck. Espeon admittedly will not really help you with the weird Chadelure/Accelgor deck, but it essentially auto-wins you the VVV and straight Accelgor matchups. With how much popularity those 2 decks a gaining (including a 1st place international national win), Espeon is probably a good play.
I just don't feel comfortable with it/ don't want to change my list. And, honestly, it does hurt your mirror match EVER SO SLIGHTLY. Like, almost unnoticeably slightly, but it can hurt you a tiny bit.
I have been testing with espeon and it hasn't been all too effective. Out of five games i lost two against VVV. Two games I had part of the line prized, but i won one of those games.
It's the trainer lock that wouldn't let me get out eevee. I had espeon in my hand with a juniper and passed for turns until i was able to portrait a twins or collector.
I'd rather just play smart around the Twins by taking out the trainer lock by KOing their 2 oddish in one turn. Those two spots are then available to help me versus the much more common Zekeels/Terrakion and Darkrai matches.
It's the trainer lock that wouldn't let me get out eevee. I had espeon in my hand with a juniper and passed for turns until i was able to portrait a twins or collector.
I'd rather just play smart around the Twins by taking out the trainer lock by KOing their 2 oddish in one turn. Those two spots are then available to help me versus the much more common Zekeels/Terrakion and Darkrai matches.
dialga master
Member
You should probably try to get out eevee before trainer lock, so that doesn't happen.
Pikajew1213
New Member
it has not hurt my consistency at all ive played six games vs vvv won all two without espeon cuz i managed to ko his oddish's
Naki Feralkin
New Member
Trainer Lock should not be an issue. Little to no decks feat. trainer lock can actually afford playing catcher, so even getting the eevee before that happens is a safe play.
You should be able to easily get Espeon before they can Twins. If you're having issues it's probably consistency and not related to Espeon at all. I've gotten it out t2 90% of the time, and when I don't I just don't take a prize until I can get it out.
Cyrus
Iron Chef - Master Emeritus
(Both lists below are not exhaustive)
Bored of the Espeon debate, but to be fair, Unown G was good against...
Machamp (highly-played deck)
Gengar (highly-played deck)
Tail Code (highly-played tech)
Remove Lost (highly-played attack)
Dusknoir (played highly for a brief period)
Toxic Fang (higly played
In other words, it was good against everything that was popular; good versus everything that was played.
In this format, Espeon is good against...
Tynamos (popular, but easy to use Switch to get around)
Entei EX (fringe deck; switch beats the burn)
Vanilluxe (fringe deck)
Accelgor (fringe deck)
So yeah, Espeon is nowhere near the playability that Unown G had. All irrelevant, though: play what you want, and play it confidently.
Vanilluxe and Accelgor really aren't fringe decks anymore. They are becoming rather widely played since Pooka won with one, and since Yoshi's deck showed up on a stream The Top Cut did. You will see a lot of them at Nats, I guarantee it.
This is coming from the guy NOT playing Espeon, mind you, haha. Still a good card, though.
Fox_Master51
New Member
Wow this thread is long.
i am not sure if pooka played lock deck first but international nationals showed that lock decks had great results during swiss rounds. At top8/top4/top2 there are not many lock decks for some reason(probably because of the B03 and the time.)