The latest screw up from Pokemon- Dragon Vault and Regionals

[NoPoke]

Where is this official announcement from TPCi on the gym? I found a post by Bulbasnore but he isn't TPCi despite what some posters are claiming.

---------- Post added 09/27/2012 at 02:07 PM ----------

Ninja'd but I think it is http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=169212

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

I don't get this. You pre-ordered it from someone other than TPCi, right? TPCi didn't make you do anything.

And it's a pre-order, you can cancel it.

Lastly, did TPCi announce the availability of Dragon Vault somewhere? Or did it just come from the vendors who want to take your money ahead of time, and the players went ERMAHGERD?

P.S. It's not like Team Compendium isn't looking out for you. As bulbasnore said in the fourth post, they are seeking clarification of SR Rayquaza specifically. This reaction from the players is honestly infuriating me....the leaders are damned if they withhold information, and now they are damned if they try to give you any nugget of information as early as possible. (They just get crucified either way when the players don't like the information.)

What Ryan and others were counting on is the simple fact that to this point "tournament legal" has been defined by street date. Once something is offically released we've been able to use it.

Arguments about cancelations, player rage, and Team Compendium really being on your side only muddy the water IMHO and don't really speak to why this is an issue.

 

[ryanvergel]

Where is this official announcement from TPCi on the gym? I found a post by Bulbasnore but he isn't TPCi despite what some posters are claiming.

---------- Post added 09/27/2012 at 02:07 PM ----------

Ninja'd but I think it is http://pokegym.net/forums/showthread.php?t=169212

Yeah, that's the whole point.

There IS NO official announcement on the website. This is the closest thing, and it isn't even complete.

 

[NoPoke]

street date may have been the rule in NA but outside the USA where our tournament schedule and releases don't match yours that is not the case. If it is a major tournament like Regionals then typically two weeks have to pass after the street date before cards are playable. USA releases have been timed to avoid this issue coming up in the past.

If this were applied to USA October regionals and the street date were October 3rd then the earliest regional that might have DV legal would be October 13th and more likely October 20th. A street date of Oct 9th would mean that the earliest regional would be the 20th with the 27th more likely. [My bad for not knowing exactly when USA regionals are but if they are only the we of 13th then prepare for disappointment ]

FWIW I think the rayquaza should be allowed as a reprint that will not cause confusion but its not my decision to make

 

[Zarmakuizz]

The reprints are confirmed to be legal. Check back the link.

 

[ryanvergel]

I don't get this. You pre-ordered it from someone other than TPCi, right? TPCi didn't make you do anything.

In order to be competitive, you either have to purchase this secret rare Rayquaza, valued at 70+ dollars, or you were expecting to be able to get it through this Dragon Vault miniset. TPCi didn't force my hand, no, but this is called a hyperbole. It is a rhetorical device used to convey strong feelings or create a strong impression. It encapsulates the sentiments of most competitive players. One either has to spend 80 dollars on a single secret rare card, which is not enough to even run certain decks like RayEels, or hope that they allow this reprint to go through.

And it's a pre-order, you can cancel it.

The worst part? I don't even know if I should cancel this pre-order, because the announcement wasn't even done in its entirety. We are left speculating as to whether or not the reprint will be legal for a huge tournament.

Furthermore, there are other cards that are important for competitive play, and collecting in general. The Kyurem is potentially very important for competitive play.
Fast Ticket is another card. There was a lot of reason to pre-order this miniset, and it would be nice to at least know whether we should be purchasing these cards or not.

Okay, the NEW cards from Dragon Vault won't be legal, but what about the reprints of Super Rod and Rayquaza? Who knows.

Lastly, did TPCi announce the availability of Dragon Vault somewhere? Or did it just come from the vendors who want to take your money ahead of time, and the players went ERMAHGERD?

TPCi didn't announce this miniset WHATSOEVER. They have announced the NEXT set on their website, but you can't even find mention of this miniset whatsoever on their website. Not a release date, or a release at all.

I'm a bit confused about what you are exactly saying here. The "announcement" being referenced supports the decision by saying that the availability is insufficient. In that regards, it is both official and unofficial. I can't even tell anymore. On the one hand, someone from TPCi said this site was officially affiliated, yet the site claims it isn't, yet it makes official announcements, and the actual Pokemon website is bare from this crucial information. The entire process, as Vanderbilt_grad says is muddy and confusing. It's not professional.

P.S. It's not like Team Compendium isn't looking out for you.

Um, where have I been chastising Team Compendium at all? Where have I said they weren't looking out for me (and other players)? This entire post is directed at TPCi. That was made clear.

This website has done nothing wrong (besides a bit of lackluster moderation, but that is irrelevant to what we are discussing here). The rest of your post is going to be disregarded, because you are going strawman on me. I didn't mention Team Compendium at all, and no one is getting upset at the wrong party, so you are being infuriated without any justification.

---------- Post added 09/27/2012 at 10:47 AM ----------

street date may have been the rule in NA but outside the USA where our tournament schedule and releases don't match yours that is not the case. If it is a major tournament like Regionals then typically two weeks have to pass after the street date before cards are playable. USA releases have been timed to avoid this issue coming up in the past.

If this were applied to USA October regionals and the street date were October 3rd then the earliest regional that might have DV legal would be October 13th and more likely October 20th. A street date of Oct 9th would mean that the earliest regional would be the 20th with the 27th more likely. [My bad for not knowing exactly when USA regionals are but if they are only the we of 13th then prepare for disappointment ]

FWIW I think the rayquaza should be allowed as a reprint that will not cause confusion but its not my decision to make

More confusion, inconsistency, lack of information, untimely distribution of information, and lack of professionalism. This is what I've gathered from your post.

This information should be on an OFFICIAL page. The information should be given ALL AT ONCE. The information should have been given EARLIER.

Further, going from your own logic, the set was already released in France, over two weeks before tournaments there, so French players would have more than reasonably expected this set to be legal for their tournaments. Aside from that, yeah, in NA, if cards are released (street date), they are legal for the tournament.

These mistakes have not been addressed, and likely will not be addressed. We, as players, have a right to be upset about how this was handled.

 

[Bigbowlr1037]

Yeah it was handled poorly but now we know the reprints are legal. None of the new cards in the set, except maybe salamence, are all that good. Rayquaza IS the reason this set will sell and now that he is legal for regionals people dont have to cancel their preorders

 

[ryanvergel]

Yeah it was handled poorly but now we know the reprints are legal. None of the new cards in the set, except maybe salamence, are all that good. Rayquaza IS the reason this set will sell and now that he is legal for regionals people dont have to cancel their preorders

Like I said, the Kyurem was also playable.

Kyurem - Dragon - HP130
Basic Pokemon

[C][C][C] Dragon Claw: 60 damage.
[W][P][C][C] Blizzard: 90 damage. Does 10 damage to each of your opponent's Benched Pokemon. (Don't apply Weakness and Resistance for Benched Pokemon.)

Weakness: Dragon (x2)
Resistance: none
Retreat: 2

Fast Ticket was also very much playable and anticipated.

 

[Bigbowlr1037]

Kyurem is good i just didnt read the spoiler til now but fast ticket is just a wasted spot in your deck 55% of the time. If your happy to play 4 cards so you can discard them with ultra ball be my guest.

 

[NoPoke]

Ryan all you should gather from my post is that it is harder over here and that we are much more used to dealing with the consequences of shifting release schedules that is common over here

 

[ryanvergel]

Your post leads a lot more though...

Typically in NA, it happens like that. Not this time though. Typically it's at least 2 weeks, which it was for France, but this is different. US releases have been timed to avoid this in the past, but not this time?

I don't see why I wouldn't gather poor communication and confusion and inconsistency from all of that. That's certainly what it seems like. I know you have to have allegiance, though

---------- Post added 09/27/2012 at 11:44 AM ----------

Kyurem is good i just didnt read the spoiler til now but fast ticket is just a wasted spot in your deck 55% of the time. If your happy to play 4 cards so you can discard them with ultra ball be my guest.

Uh, what?

You mean if you run 1 of them it's a waste slot 55% of the time? Where are you getting this information from?

Fast Ticket, if a 1of, allows you to go first 5.8% more often, assuming your opponent doesn't also play the card. So at maximum, the card is "wasted" 46.2% of the time.

Flawed logic. Maybe you don't see the benefits of this card, but a lot of other people have or would have.

 

[Water Pokemon Master]

Gah I wrote this like two hours ago but my Internet died and now I'm at skewl.

P.S. It's not like Team Compendium isn't looking out for you. As bulbasnore said in the fourth post, they are seeking clarification of SR Rayquaza specifically. This reaction from the players is honestly infuriating me....the leaders are damned if they withhold information, and now they are damned if they try to give you any nugget of information as early as possible. (They just get crucified either way when the players don't like the information.)

No one is crucifying the TOs or PTOs. I'm sure everyone knows and appreciates that they go out of their way to check on these issues because they genuinely care about their players, as with Bulbasnore's thread on the front page. As I said in my post, they have a clear line of communication with TPCi and know what the players want and thus act on behalf of the players whenever they can.

The problem is that TPCi needs to get more with the times and act a little more professional and organized when it comes to making their official announcements. They need to be in an anticipatory mode - they should at the very least be asking their PTOs if there's anything they should be on the lookout for so that they can anticipate what their players are expecting and act upon it early (I mean, even a thread called "What should we lookout for?" on their official forums would do the trick). Everyone who's involved in the TCG now is all over DV, and yet TPCi announces all of this at the last minute and through an "unofficial" site. Instead of just outright banning the DV a long time ago because they weren't sure it would be available to everyone by now (anticipatory mode), or sticking to their own tournament rules that you're allowed to use reprints of future cards (predictive mode), we're suddenly being told, at the last minute and through an unofficial website, that it's not legal to use DV and that even Rayquaza's use is in question (after everyone's taken the "predictive mode" route and rightly assumed you can use such reprints). This is a highly unorganized and unprofessional way of making your announcements - it just leaves more questions and confusion than anything. This isn't how things should work, and the reaction here (and elsewhere) is evidence enough of that - it's a sign that there's a problem. TPCi should have known that it's players were all over DV, but did not act upon the hype until now (and even then, it seems the PTOs initiated the conversation and that TPCi may not have even done anything had they not - though I don't know this for sure, of course). Even if this were a tiny announcement, the point still stands.

For example, I would have posted a story on Pokemon.com's P!P section a while ago titled something like "Regionals coming up next month! Here's all you need to know" or something like that. Not only would it serve to advertise the tournaments, but it would also serve to insure everyone is updated on the rules and knows what to expect. Since Pokemon.com never announces new TCG products, and thus there's nowhere to mention DV in a news story there without making uninformed people scratch their heads (people not visiting PB ) , I would have slipped into the news story something like, "Regionals will be in the Modified format. Only the following sets and promos will be allowed." And of course that list would exclude DV and then there's no problem! Everyone would have known DV wouldn't be allowed.

Again, the official company needs to start using its official site to announce its official policies and announcements. My site shouldn't have to link to PokeGym to tell everyone what's going on with Play! Pokemon.

 

[Bigbowlr1037]

Your post leads a lot more though...

Typically in NA, it happens like that. Not this time though. Typically it's at least 2 weeks, which it was for France, but this is different. US releases have been timed to avoid this in the past, but not this time?

I don't see why I wouldn't gather poor communication and confusion and inconsistency from all of that. That's certainly what it seems like. I know you have to have allegiance, though

---------- Post added 09/27/2012 at 11:44 AM ----------




Uh, what?

You mean if you run 1 of them it's a waste slot 55% of the time? Where are you getting this information from?

Fast Ticket, if a 1of, allows you to go first 5.8% more often, assuming your opponent doesn't also play the card. So at maximum, the card is "wasted" 46.2% of the time.

Flawed logic. Maybe you don't see the benefits of this card, but a lot of other people have or would have.

No. Running 4 is a waste 55% of the time considering 45% of the time you start with it. Im not a fan of playing cards that are useless when the game begins.

 

[ryanvergel]

Gah I wrote this like two hours ago but my Internet died and now I'm at skewl.


No one is crucifying the TOs or PTOs. I'm sure everyone knows and appreciates that they go out of their way to check on these issues because they genuinely care about their players, as with Bulbasnore's thread on the front page. As I said in my post, they have a clear line of communication with TPCi and know what the players want and thus act on behalf of the players whenever they can.

The problem is that TPCi needs to get more with the times and act a little more professional and organized when it comes to making their official announcements. They need to be in an anticipatory mode - they should at the very least be asking their PTOs if there's anything they should be on the lookout for so that they can anticipate what their players are expecting and act upon it early (I mean, even a thread called "What should we lookout for?" on their official forums would do the trick). Everyone who's involved in the TCG now is all over DV, and yet TPCi announces all of this at the last minute and through an "unofficial" site. Instead of just outright banning the DV a long time ago because they weren't sure it would be available to everyone by now (anticipatory mode), or sticking to their own tournament rules that you're allowed to use reprints of future cards (predictive mode), we're suddenly being told, at the last minute and through an unofficial website, that it's not legal to use DV and that even Rayquaza's use is in question (after everyone's taken the "predictive mode" route and rightly assumed you can use such reprints). This is a highly unorganized and unprofessional way of making your announcements - it just leaves more questions and confusion than anything. This isn't how things should work, and the reaction here (and elsewhere) is evidence enough of that - it's a sign that there's a problem. TPCi should have known that it's players were all over DV, but did not act upon the hype until now (and even then, it seems the PTOs initiated the conversation and that TPCi may not have even done anything had they not - though I don't know this for sure, of course). Even if this were a tiny announcement, the point still stands.

For example, I would have posted a story on Pokemon.com's P!P section a while ago titled something like "Regionals coming up next month! Here's all you need to know" or something like that. Not only would it serve to advertise the tournaments, but it would also serve to insure everyone is updated on the rules and knows what to expect. Since Pokemon.com never announces new TCG products, and thus there's nowhere to mention DV in a news story there without making uninformed people scratch their heads (people not visiting PB ) , I would have slipped into the news story something like, "Regionals will be in the Modified format. Only the following sets and promos will be allowed." And of course that list would exclude DV and then there's no problem! Everyone would have known DV wouldn't be allowed.

Again, the official company needs to start using its official site to announce its official policies and announcements. My site shouldn't have to link to PokeGym to tell everyone what's going on with Play! Pokemon.

:clap:

Well said, again.

This is a frustrating process.

---------- Post added 09/27/2012 at 12:05 PM ----------

No. Running 4 is a waste 55% of the time considering 45% of the time you start with it. Im not a fan of playing cards that are useless when the game begins.

Uh, no, again.

If you run 4 of them, the odds of drawing all 4 are virtually impossible. .01%
The odds of drawing (at least) ONE is 40% of the time. Half of those times, you will be going first anyways due to the coinflip, so it BOOSTS the odds of you going first from 50%->50%+(.5*40) or 70% of the time.

You will draw excess fast tickets 6.5% of the time, but they are still letting you go first, so it's debatable.

I am not even sure what you are getting at, but either way, I don't see a 55 or a 45 anywhere in my math, so you're wrong somewhere...

Maybe you're not doing the math right, or not quite understanding the benefits of it? I don't even quite know what you're saying, but I figured I would do the math anyways and maybe at least show you 55 and 45 are nowhere in the calculations.

 

[Tapin]

No. Running 4 is a waste 55% of the time considering 45% of the time you start with it. Im not a fan of playing cards that are useless when the game begins.

(Sorry, I know this is off-topic...)

I think what you're trying to say is that it's a waste 60% of the time, since 40% of the time it'll be in your opening hand (technically 39.94996% of the time, but who's counting?)

Whether or not that 60% is a "waste" is not really germane to the topic of TCPi's repeated poor communication with their userbase :thumb:

 

[Bigbowlr1037]

Ok my math was off slightly, but either way my point is this: 40% of the time you draw fast ticket, meaning 60% of the time you wont. Winning the coin flip to go first is irrelevant for my statement. 40% of the time i draw fast ticket and get to use its effect and go first, 60% of the time i dont draw it and cant use its effect making the card useless for anything besides discarding. If you dont draw fast ticket its wasting space in your deck, which by your numbers is 60% of the time. I dont want to have cards in my deck that are useless more often then not.

 

[ryanvergel]

Ok my math was off slightly, but either way my point is this: 40% of the time you draw fast ticket, meaning 60% of the time you wont. Winning the coin flip to go first is irrelevant for my statement. 40% of the time i draw fast ticket and get to use its effect and go first, 60% of the time i dont draw it and cant use its effect making the card useless for anything besides discarding. If you dont draw fast ticket its wasting space in your deck, which by your numbers is 60% of the time. I dont want to have cards in my deck that are useless more often then not.

You having a personal discomfort against having that is more often not used than used is irrelevant.

There are tons of great cards that are only used in rare situations. They are called techs, for example.

Furthermore, the re have been plenty of cards that were virtually only used t1 and that was it. Almost every starter was useless except to start with it, for example.

And the last point, is that it being only useful some of the time doesn't make it bad. If thatportion of the time drastically increases your win percentage, then they are definitely worth it.

If going first makes you win 50% more, then these cards are well worth their space. What other card can increase your odds of winning that much? It could be more valuable than any other card in your deck.

Don't be to hasty to jump to conclusions about cards.

 

[Trican]

In a not too distant future where DV was legal...

Regionals with it's high CP values rolls around and we had Fast Ticket legal. Someone somewhere complains that they lost X amount of games due to their opponent luck sacking a Fast Ticket and donking T1.

Someone super creative makes a deck based off of donks and Fast Ticket and goes on to win now the entire format is "too luck based."

It's fully possible and you know if it had happened people would be up in arms. In this case there really is no appeasing the masses.

Now I know there is some irony that the first post in a "Where TPCi screwed up" thread after taking the Professor logo is pro-TPCi I know, but this just seems to be silly. Now don't get me wrong, but if within the next day or so there is no mention on the TPCi site that DV is banned aside from reprints there is a problem. If Bulbasnore got the OK to go ahead and toss this up early well good on them. I'm guessing at the Washington headquarters there is a bit more going on than posting an announcement that isn't really necessary for another 9 days or so when this set is released. The only time you really wasted your effort preordering was if they came out right now and said "This set is banned from any play during the life of this game."

Now yes we have to accept that this set's release does deviate from the standard rules which is going to be the counter argument to my next point, BUT it is the exception not the rule for street legal date. However reprints have been fair game for immediate use in tournaments unless the artwork is different then it is a case by case basis. The rule being as long as you can easily tell the card is a reprint it should be good to go. Again I accept the counter is "Under the same rules legal date is street date," but again exceptions and rules. Perhaps it's the optimist in me that assumed when I first read the announcement that Rayquaza was immediately legal to help with the secondary market.

The tldr is the player base was unlikely to be happy regardless of how Dragon's Vault went. You let it be legal and against how people predict it going Fast Ticket has a huge impact on the format and the saying "TPCi wants us luck sacking this format" is thrown around. I just feel this is truly one that TPCi wasn't going to win unless you're putting aside DV not being legal and letting the argument solely be that TPCi should have announced this on their official site.

 

[ryanvergel]

In a not too distant future where DV was legal...

Regionals with it's high CP values rolls around and we had Fast Ticket legal. Someone somewhere complains that they lost X amount of games due to their opponent luck sacking a Fast Ticket and donking T1.

Someone super creative makes a deck based off of donks and Fast Ticket and goes on to win now the entire format is "too luck based."

It's fully possible and you know if it had happened people would be up in arms. In this case there really is no appeasing the masses.

Now I know there is some irony that the first post in a "Where TPCi screwed up" thread after taking the Professor logo is pro-TPCi I know, but this just seems to be silly. Now don't get me wrong, but if within the next day or so there is no mention on the TPCi site that DV is banned aside from reprints there is a problem. If Bulbasnore got the OK to go ahead and toss this up early well good on them. I'm guessing at the Washington headquarters there is a bit more going on than posting an announcement that isn't really necessary for another 9 days or so when this set is released. The only time you really wasted your effort preordering was if they came out right now and said "This set is banned from any play during the life of this game."

Now yes we have to accept that this set's release does deviate from the standard rules which is going to be the counter argument to my next point, BUT it is the exception not the rule for street legal date. However reprints have been fair game for immediate use in tournaments unless the artwork is different then it is a case by case basis. The rule being as long as you can easily tell the card is a reprint it should be good to go. Again I accept the counter is "Under the same rules legal date is street date," but again exceptions and rules. Perhaps it's the optimist in me that assumed when I first read the announcement that Rayquaza was immediately legal to help with the secondary market.

The tldr is the player base was unlikely to be happy regardless of how Dragon's Vault went. You let it be legal and against how people predict it going Fast Ticket has a huge impact on the format and the saying "TPCi wants us luck sacking this format" is thrown around. I just feel this is truly one that TPCi wasn't going to win unless you're putting aside DV not being legal and letting the argument solely be that TPCi should have announced this on their official site.

Well, you're entirely wrong every step of the way.

All of my points were about the MANNER in which TPCi announced this, not WHAT they announced.

Cool, it's not legal. I don't really care. I will adjust. However, at least tell me in an official way, don't let me speculate, do it in a timely manner, and do it consistently.

Regardless of whether the playerbase is happy with the content of the announcement is irrelevant to this thread. What is relevant is that TPCi screwed up in the way they went about informing the populace of important information.

---------- Post added 09/27/2012 at 01:47 PM ----------

street date may have been the rule in NA but outside the USA where our tournament schedule and releases don't match yours that is not the case.

It is actually outlined in the tournament rules, so it is always the case, even outside the USA.

15.3. New Pokémon TCG Releases
Expansion sets are expected to be released on a regular schedule, averaging four new sets per calendar year. Cards from these new releases are made legal for tournament play the day that the set is released for regular retail sale in a rating zone and not before, with the standard exception of Prerelease tournaments.

Except, you know, this time.

It's only further irksome that if this is not the case because it's somehow not on a regular schedule? Or whatever other poor reason you can come up with to deviate from this norm, that this wasn't documented or announced sooner.

What happens if this notice isn't given on the official site? What if I play dumb, show up to regionals, and whip out the tournament rules? What if this comes up during regionals itself. Someone shows up with fast ticket or kyurem, and we try to tell them "no, you see, this site not affiliated with the game actually released an announcement saying you can't play with these cards, even though the tournament rules say you should be able to. Sorry. Yeah, it's not affiliated. I understand that nothing on the official website makes mention of this announcement. Yeah, I know it actually doesn't make any announcement or reference to the set AT ALL. Just believe me!"

 

[vanderbilt_grad]

15.3. New Pokémon TCG Releases
Expansion sets are expected to be released on a regular schedule, averaging four new sets per calendar year. Cards from these new releases are made legal for tournament play the day that the set is released for regular retail sale in a rating zone and not before, with the standard exception of Prerelease tournaments.

Thanks Ryan. Honestly this was bothering me as well.