Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

How many players needed for a T4 at Cities?

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JandPDS

JandPDS

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Just curious if anyone knows what the threshold is for a T4 cut instead of a T2?

My daughter finished 4th going 3-1 in a 20 player tourney after swiss and she thought she was going to have a chance to win the event but instead they handed her packs for 4th place and said that the computer told they only had enough for a T2.

I am not complaining about the TO or anything the event was really well run just curious that is all.
 
16 is the official threshold for a Top 4 (16 is 4 rounds, 17+ is 5 rounds, but both are a Top 4), however PTO's are allowed to run Top Cuts with less players than the maximum Top Cut. (However, the computer operator would have to set the cut to 2, as it should default to the highest possible number of players)
 
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JandPDS said:
Just curious if anyone knows what the threshold is for a T4 cut instead of a T2?

My daughter finished 4th going 3-1 in a 20 player tourney after swiss and she thought she was going to have a chance to win the event but instead they handed her packs for 4th place and said that the computer told they only had enough for a T2.

I am not complaining about the TO or anything the event was really well run just curious that is all.
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16 people and someone that reads what the computer tells them correctly.
 
JandPDS said:
Just curious if anyone knows what the threshold is for a T4 cut instead of a T2?

My daughter finished 4th going 3-1 in a 20 player tourney after swiss and she thought she was going to have a chance to win the event but instead they handed her packs for 4th place and said that the computer told they only had enough for a T2.

I am not complaining about the TO or anything the event was really well run just curious that is all.
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Note, it must be 16 in her age division, not in the tournament, to make a top 4. Also, it must be 16 before registration is closed. Late registers don't count, so if 5 people showed up late, it'd still be a top 2.
 
Also keep in mind that a TO/PTO should ALWAYS announce at the beginning of the tournament....

1. How many players for each division
2. Top Cut for each division
3. How many players receive Championship Points

This is not a rule but it is common sense and it eliminates any confusion for top cut.

Players like to be informed.
 
JandPDS said:
Just curious if anyone knows what the threshold is for a T4 cut instead of a T2?

My daughter finished 4th going 3-1 in a 20 player tourney after swiss and she thought she was going to have a chance to win the event but instead they handed her packs for 4th place and said that the computer told they only had enough for a T2.

I am not complaining about the TO or anything the event was really well run just curious that is all.
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How many players were in each age division?

You can find this information in losjackal's North American Tournament List tool here on the gym.
 
My daughter is a Junior they had 20 players in her age group and played 4 rounds. Seniors had 21 and masters over 60. Masters played 6 rounds and had a T8.
 
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JandPDS said:
My daughter is a Junior they had 20 players in her age group and played 4 rounds. Seniors had 21 and masters over 60. Masters played 6 rounds and had a T8.
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The most likely cause of this is players were entered late. Not necessarily (but possible) "Round 1 loss" late but late as in the Roster was printed/Round 1 was paired (not necessarily paired & printed, but paired in the computer) and the TOM operator added players before the round start which forces a repair. Since amount of rounds and top cut size is determined before the initial Round 1 pair, the amount of rounds and top cut sized are fixed at this point.

The least likely cause is the TO opted to do a smaller top cut and -1 Swiss round which they have the power to do if they have the justification to do so (ie- the tournament only has the venue space for limited amount of time), however I do not think this was the case because Masters had 6 rounds and a T8. Again, this is the least likely cause, my first suggestion was more likely.
 
Since Team Cook brought it up,
Tournament Rules said:
6.5. Tournament Organizer Responsibilities
...
The Tournament Organizer is required to notify players of the following information:
 Tournament type (Swiss, Swiss plus Single Elimination, etc.)
 Tournament format (Modified or Unlimited)
 Number of rounds
 Number of minutes per round
 Top cut, if applicable
 Tournament staff (Head Judge, judges, scorekeepers, etc.)
 Any breaks during the tournament
This information should be conveyed at an appropriate time. The tournament format and type should be announced far enough in advance of the tournament that players can prepare for the tournament before arriving. The number of rounds, minutes per round, top cut, tournament staff, and breaks should be announced prior to the start of the first round.
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bolded for emphasis.

The language in the document is confusing. While it says that the information should be announced prior to the first round, where I would read "should be" as "can be but doesn't have to be," the information is stated as required to be announced. So, it is a rule that it must be announced, but it could be announced after lunch. hum... Is there a different time that is appropriate to make such announcements if you had not already done so? Or is this "should" supposed to be a less demanding "must," making it a rule that such information is required to be announced before round 1?
 
<hairsplit> A requirement to notify is not the same as a requirement to announce. </hairsplit>
 
LOLZ said:
Not necessarily (but possible) "Round 1 loss" late but late as in the Roster was printed/Round 1 was paired (not necessarily paired & printed, but paired in the computer) and the TOM operator added players before the round start which forces a repair. Since amount of rounds and top cut size is determined before the initial Round 1 pair, the amount of rounds and top cut sized are fixed at this point.
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That's why you should print the roster before going on with setting tournament details.
 
That doesn't stop the reason for 90% of late adds - People not showing up until the last minute of registration and filling out their decklists then. I have no sympathy for them.
 
ShuckleLVX said:
That doesn't stop the reason for 90% of late adds - People not showing up until the last minute of registration and filling out their decklists then. I have no sympathy for them.
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The roster is printed when registration is closed. If they're late, they recieve a first-round-loss. And if there would be another top cut if they had signed up in time, they're probably out of the tournament unless there are 64+ players in their age group.
 
I think your wife the TO could possibly know the answer to your question.
 
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Pablo said:
I think your wife the TO could possibly know the answer to your question.
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My wife thought there should have been a top 4 and was suprised after when my daughter and the 3rd place players was not included in the top cut. I even sorted my daughters deck because prior to the start of the final round of swiss I asked the TO if there was going to be a T4 or T2 for juniors. I was told by the TO that there would be a T4, so when my daughter won her final match I sorted her deck to be checked for the top Cut. Then the head judge passed out packs to 3rd and 4th place. My daughter came to me with her packs and said that she was not going to be in the top cut. I then asked the head judge why is she not in the top Cut as she finished in 4th place. He said he would like to have a top 4 cut but the computer would only allow him a T2 with 20 players.

So that is why I was confused. I believed that 20 players in an age group was enough for a Top 4 (and the tourney started with 21 juniors but one dropped) but when the head judge told me otherwise I wanted to see if there might be some new rule on how many players are needed for a T4 then what I am used to. As you know there was no top cut for Battle Roads so I was open to the possibility that maybe something had changed in regards to the numbers necessary for a T4 top cut.

I now see that there is no such new rule and it was just some kind of mistake occured that cost my daughter the chance at winning the event that she deserved to get, and the extra championship points that would have gone along with it.
 
Unless there were more than 5 late entries into the JR division, then you had enough for a top 4 cut. You could have looked this up yourself in the tourney procedures set out by Pokemon. It is possible that an error occured during set up for the tourney to reduce the top cut by 1 level (in your case T4 to T2)

Since you asked the people at the tourney before you left and had an answer, to me, this sounds more like a sour grapes thread and a shot at the organizer of the event. Make a ticket to pokemon and cover it in that manner. Talk to the PTO in private and confirm if this was a human error, computor error or simply a correct call bc of late entries.

Keith
 
TCG News & Gossip Discussion isn't a part of the forum which I check very often, so I didn’t get to see this thread until someone link it to me just now. After reading it and thinking back to what happened on that day, I’d like to apologize on behalf of our PTO and say sorry if this error possibly cost your daughter up to 20 extra Championship Points towards her World's invite.

Surrey events have always had some of the biggest turnouts for us. With more than 100 players, things could easily get out of hand. With many late registrations and our PTO being too nice for her own good, we had to delay the start of the event already. On top of that, we had to work with the mall hours (10am to 6pm). When time gets tight, people will involuntarily start to rush themselves.

With almost 70 masters enrolled in this event, the automated rounds set up by TOM are 7 rounds and a top 16 cut. The default setting looked like this:

JR: 5 Swiss round and top 4 cut
SR: 5 Swiss round and top 4 cut
MA: 7 Swiss round and top 16 cut

Due the time restriction, as much as we want to give the players as much play time as possible, we had to cut down a round and top cut. As I'm sure many of you PTOs out there know, whenever we switch the “play one less swiss round” to YES, all three age group all has to be affected and it looked something like this:

JR: 4 Swiss round and top 4 cut
SR: 4 Swiss round and top 4 cut
MA: 6 Swiss round and top 16 cut

Now, since we can’t have a top 16 cut for master, we had to click the drop down bar to change that from top 16 to top 8. I believe that is where the error occurred. After the switch from 16 to 8, the computer automatically adjusted all three age group to this:

JR: 4 Swiss round and top 2 cut
SR: 4 Swiss round and top 2 cut
MA: 6 Swiss round and top 8 cut

As you can see, there might have been some human error or computer setting error that cost this. With everyone wanted to get the event started, we must have over looked this part. I'm very sorry about this and once again apologize to all the Juniors and Seniors that could have played in the top 4 cut and had a chance at more Championship Points. We'll try our best to avoid this in our future events.
 
@bidier, and everyone else who uses TOM. ALWAYS, untick the synchronise, by age division, the percentage of players in the final option in step 3 of setting up a new tournament.

All software has gotchas :( that is one of TOMs
 
I appreciate Bidier coming on here and owning up to any human error in trying to get the tourney started and dealing with time constraints. Mistakes can happen. It looks like that happened here and you have taken responsibility. Well done!

As to the OP, again, an answer has been provided. It appears that this answer could and would have been given to you in private, at the event, if you simply asked someone instead of coming on here to "ask a question" **coughcomplaincough**

Keith
 
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