Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Is the current format the worst ever?

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Since this thread is still going on, I'll address one of my concerns about the last few formats: the return to a standard damage doubling Weakness. I'll spare everyone the little "speech" I found this post turning into, but I have to say a T1 Basic deck that only really had to fear a T2 deck Stage 1 deck that hit the T1 deck for Weakness and was also Resistant to the main attacker of the T1 deck... yuck.

That's not what players like myself mean when we say "balance". Does it meet the general definition of balance? Having a few over-the-top-decks that counter each other is not fun.

While it is common for individual cards to "break" the general rules, for a while now we've been completely blowing the old standards of Energy-to-damage ratios while also enjoying some of the fastest Energy acceleration.
 
If you're talking about T1 Zekrom vs T2 Donphan, I'd just like to point out that Zekrom usually got going T2 instead of T1 (even thought it COULD go as early as T1). In any case, most people favored the Eels approach because it had a stronger late game than the Pachi + Shaymin approach. Also, I believe Magnezone had more success during cities than Zekrom did.

Still, you oversimplify that format. There were Mew variants, Reuniclus + Trainer lock (Vileplume or Gothitelle), Reshiram/Typhlosion, Stage 1 rush, Magnezone/Eels, Zekrom/Eels or ZPS, Durant, Chandelure, Electrode variants (Usually Kyurem and Landorus or Cobalion), Fighting variants, VVV, and X-Corners. The very next set basically everything was too slow to compete except Durant, Eels, CMT, and arguably fighting variants but it was very meta dependent.

If that's not what you were referring to, disregard my post lol
 
Eh, even I am uncertain of exactly what I was talking about; my attempt at being concise failed pretty miserably. I ended up kind of smooshing together my comments.

You are correct; I am oversimplifying the format at the time in question. Not to sound pessimistic, but while I do recall (and was glad) that Zekrom donk decks often didn't win via an actual donk, it was still an insanely fast, aggressive deck that to me, showed things were "out-of-whack".

Speed and early game damage yields have been out of control, or HP scores have been way, way too low. I mean, if HP scores seemed to be patterned after high level versions of Pokémon and also clearly factored in DEF and S.DEF scores (since the only other way to do that is via Abilities and attack effects), a T1 120 would still be potent, but not so scary.

I know it seems odd, but when it comes to the numbers, I think the TCG needs some "inflation". While this should not be applied endlessly, higher damage yields and HP scores will allow more flexibility in card design. When you had attacks that tended to just do 0, 10, or 20 for one Energy, that didn't leave a lot of design room. I mean, a lot of attacks were overpriced (by my estimate, at least) and somewhat homogenous, because you can only play around with that little damage so much.

While I've got concerns about being able to attack for damage with the first turn's Energy attachments (technically on topic, but I don't want to make this anymore cluttered than it already is), disregarding that if we have HP scores ranging from 200 to 700 (just a rough figure from the top of my head), then single Energy attacks hitting for 30 to 60 damage aren't quite so scary... and designers can do a lot more interesting things since the damage-for-effect trade offs are better.
 
HS to NVI indeed was better than any other formats of that season, however, that doesn't mean it's a good format when having the whole history of Pokémon in scope.

I'd also argue that BLW to BCR is probably better than both BLW to DRX and BLW to Plasma Storm.

There are ups and downs, but the main problems are still there. HL-on and DX-on were healthy formats. HP-on suffered from one single overpowered line (Gardevoir) combined with "old" cards like DRE and Cessation Crystal, while the rest still was ok.

In the first DP-on, decks got too fast, indroducing Kingdra, Machamp, and finally the SP theme. While this was a major problem, it still didn't shut down the format. Speed decks, especially SP decks, had weaknesses to exploit (low damage output, hard counters etc), while stuff like Claydol made any deck run.

Coming to HS-on, the only weakness of fast basic decks to exploit was their dependance on item trainers, so most of the rogue decks of that time had Vileplume (The Truth, Chandelure, Vanilluexe and more). Now there's no Vileplume left.

The only reason Magnezone could survive in that format was that it got both a good attack and a good power to boost consistancy. That also is the only reason why Empoleon can compete with other decks right now (and you should keep in mind that the much weaker Jumpluff was tier 1 only a few years ago).

As I already stated, printing the right card could make the format better. More stage 2 Pokémon that have both a good ability and a good attack. Like Empoleon or Hydreigon. While there actually are some really great and playable abilities around on Stage 2 cards (Serperior, Reuniclus, Gothitelle, Gardevoir, Salamence, Flygon, Dusknoir, Stoutland and soon also Magnezone and Metagross), most of them are crippled with mediocre or even bad attacks, useless pre-evolutions and other handicaps. That results in the fact that those Pokémon aren't viable on their own, need other Pokémon in play to even do anything, and therefor are inferior to all the heavy EX stuff.
 
I am not sure how that would make things better.

I am the type that wants all Stages to be viable. This is best accomplished by balancing out end stages, cutting out early game acceleration (Energy, Evolution, etc.), and then just make sure that lower Stages provide enough advantage to compensate for the equivalent Basic (that doesn't Evolve) having two more slots for Trainers.

That's just my own theory, however. What is not my own theory is that Evolved Pokémon-ex were quite the force when they existed, but also had more HP and usually stronger effects than Basic versions... and also pre-erratum Rare Candy.
 
^Back then a Basic ex was roughly around the same power level of a good, normal Stage 2. That was the right balance I think, you get the same power level but for different draw backs, one nets your 2 prizes, the other is harder to get into play quickly and safely and also takes up more deck space.

Currently, a decent Basic EX far outclasses a decent Stage 2. With such high HP there's also a further advantage.
It all comes down to Energy Removal.
When you KO a Pokemon you're removing energy from your opponents field, so a Basic EX is actually worth more than twice as much as 2 regular Pokemon that "add up to" it's own HP. Just for example, say you KO 2 90hp Pokemon with 3 energy attached each you're removing 6 energy from play. KO a single 180hp Basic EX with 3 energy for the same amount of attacks and damage and you do get the same 2 prizes, but you only remove 3 energy from play.

I'd like all Stages to be viable too, some cards like Spiritomb from Arceus or some Pokemon with protection from Basics would do for now, but I think I'll continue to sit this series out and hope the next one returns to a more balanced style of set design.
 
On the double weakness thing ... I don't like it. If we are going to have big basic EXs then wish that those basic EXs had the x2 weakness while the regular non-EX guys had the +10/+20/+30 weakness we had for a while.

First turn rules need revamping.

Rare Candy needs to be un-nerfed.

Really wish Catcher was an Ace Spec.

Fix those things and I think the format would be really interesting. But even so this isn't the worst format ever. It's a difficult format to make workable rogue deck ideas in, but there isn't a complete lack of variety in the top decks as we've seen sometimes in the past.
 
If we want things to fairly compete with each other, the easiest thing is to level the playing field between them. So as someone that wants all "fully Evolved" Pokémon (non-Evolving Basic Pokémon, fully Evolved Stage 1 Pokémon and Stage 2 Pokémon) to be able to compete with each other while filling similar roles, they should be very, very similar in most regards.

This means "Stats" (like HP) and "Effects" (attacks and Abilities). Where they differ should be exactly how this is approached with respect to the game's speed. Evolutions take longer to get into play... so give them Abilities that are valuable (like Energy acceleration) that would be flat out broken on a big, Basic Pokémon that hit the field turn 1. Don't give big, Basic Pokémon inexpensive, effective attacks that make them a threat T1.

From there, recognize that big, Basic Pokémon enjoy the advantage of requiring less card slots, though as long as you don't make them a great opener, they still need some supporting Pokémon. Now when you design Evolutions, make sure that lower Stages are quite useful, but most useful when it comes to building up their own Evolution line.

A twice Evolving Basic Pokémon could get a useful first opening effect, preferably either an attack that aids in your own set-up or disrupts your opponent. The idea is that as you Evolve your Pokémon, you're generating additional advantage that compensates for the Stage 2 line requiring extra slots as compared with a similar big, Basic Pokémon.

A lot of the reasons we struggle with Pokémon Catcher are that attacks are breaking what should be the the "speed limit". With just a little luck, decks can hit hard first turn, and most decks strive for a solid second turn. Only a few really plan on a third turn set-up as anything but the "as slow as can be tolerated" speed.

Then when you start tossing in things like being a Pokémon EX, still don't violate the "speed limit", and the 2-Prizes can remain a balancing factor. Generic Evolution short cuts, like Rare Candy, don't really help in the end as they are a design "crutch"; a well designed card becomes broken if it has access to it (think about some of the amazing Abilities that could now be used first turn), and of course in order to end up balanced you have to basically "pre-nerf" Stage 2 Pokémon so that they are completely dependent upon them.

Most of what I am saying are "slow fixes" that would take several years to implement. For those that really want Rare Candy back to where it was, might I suggest a compromise? Try petitioning for Pokémon Breeder to be reprinted as Supporter with the original effect of Rare Candy.

This way first turn you just focus on getting the set-up you need in hand, and then second turn you can easily drop and Evolve your Basic Pokémon. This also helps Stage 1 decks as well, and should curb the "abuse" level of having early Stage 1/2 Pokémon.

tl;dr: Make the Pokémon we want to compete directly against each other equals... regardless of Stage, and remember that some effects are perfectly fine so long as they aren't possible before their time in the game (big attacks, Energy acceleration, Evolution acceleration, etc.)
 
TRAINER HEZ said:
Well look, it got so bad that our game store came up with a new format to play just because we couldn't stand it anymore but still love to play Pokemon, so I've got those dam EXs to thank for the Unlimited 150 format >_<
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I've actually started an optional format at my league that involves creating a deck with no legendaries-people who participate get to pick a card out of a binder (filled with old cards some people donated to our league) for each game they play.
 
Anyone who played the original Base Set format through Base Set 2 and even Team Rocket knows just how awful that format was... For a while you had two decks, Haymaker and Rain Dance. That was it... then Wigglytuff showed up for a while, but it didn't get much better. Not to mention, those decks were VASTLY more consistent than these decks, and whatever strategy you went with, you were almost assuredly set up by turn 2 at the latest. That format was rough... it was hard to be original because Hitmonchan and Blastoise really pushed everything else out of the format. I've just gotten back into the game after a long hiatus, but I can tell you that this format is far more fun that the last three years of Magic formats, and the original couple years of Quad Bill Quad Oak pokemon. Not to mention, Energy Removal was stupid.
 
Personally, I agree that the format would be much better if there were better abilities on better cards. I loved, just absolutely loved, the formats from a few years ago where you had all of these neat powers and bodies, and attacks that had very useful utility properties. Even better, those cards weren't outclassed by raw damage.

Anyone who use to play with me knows the oddball decks I'd make that somehow worked very well. Now the format seem much more focused on plain old damage and the always vanilla energy manipulation. I've seen all these tricks before, but in much more interesting forms. For me, a veteran player, this format is dull. Even the "inventive" decks I've seen are just different mash ups of the same Pokemon. This is why I quit the game a mere month after dropping $200 on cards. Games lost a lot of excitement in deck building IMO.

(Sorry if my thoughts are running together, quickly giving my input while on break at work.)
 
Gamester2488: I didn't play competitively back then (didn't know about League and tournaments weren't well advertised, if there were any in our area), but I did play, and like most areas even our small High School provided half a dozen "serious" players and another dozen competent players who were all big into Pokémon; the "fad phase" was in full bloom. Plus for various reasons, I've gone back and play-tested the Base-Fossil era quite a bit.

Just letting you know this isn't coming from someone who didn't experience those days first hand. Yes that format was pretty awful and this format is better. This format is also the product of over a decade of refining the game, where as Base Set - Team Rocket represents the first four sets of the game (five counting Base Set 2). You expect more from a college student than a first grader, or if that sounds too severe from a professional with 10+ years of experience over a college intern.

Most of the problems that plagued those early sets, by the way, are present now as well. I'll take today over then, however if I were allowed to at least cut S/ER from it, I'd take Base Set - Fossil... possibly through Team Rocket but I've actually tested the former quite a bit. This is before more severe (but in some ways more accurate) approaches, like comparing Base Set through Team Rocket, but with all Trainers replaced by their modern counterparts.

With our larger card pool, we have more decks, but most play awfully similar; again, better than the old days, but not the kind of improvement players expect... especially because a lot of us got used to just as diverse if not more diverse formats that have happened in the interim.
 
Otaku said:
With our larger card pool, we have more decks, but most play awfully similar; again, better than the old days, but not the kind of improvement players expect... especially because a lot of us got used to just as diverse if not more diverse formats that have happened in the interim.
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The last format in which I was active was the last one the SP cards were legal in. Lots of complicated powers and varied card effects made each individual game exciting. I got very involved with the game state in those formats. Format wasn't especially diverse, but each deck had so many tricks that many of the games rarely played out the same way.

Now, all of the big decks are about pumping out simplistic damage and manipulating energy. There's not many cool victory stories. In those previous formats, a good number of my victories or losses had a story that I could legitimately brag about, and it was fun to watch games carry on in a chess like fashion. Now? My entire story would be that I used card A to move energies to attacker X (where x is one of like eight different choices that all just do damage and not much else) to to do damage, then next turn I did more damage to something else. Then if I lost, I'd describe my epic loss as not doing enough damage, or my opponent was better at the art o damage than I was.

On a side note, Cresselia Ex's attack has an effect that's been on many other cards in the past, and I rarely got hype unless it was already part of an established line (like PL garde, which had that effect and two decent attacks and a good utility power and was part of that legendary garde line). How sad is it that this effect is "technical" in this format? Boring.

Once again, rushed post so my apologies for logic jumps.
 
As far as weaknesses goes, I think that all basics with 100+ HP should have X2 weakness. Period. However, I believe that evolving basics as well as their evolutions should sit around a +10 to +50 range depending on the strength of the card. Perhaps Pokemon with abilities would lie at the higher end of that range(ex: Squirtle BCR, Munna BCR have +20 due to ability, while Rattata would have only +10), and Stage 1's and 2's would have +30 to 50 depending on ability, HP and attack strength. Of course, doing all this would probably require alot more forethought on Japan's TCG department than what they are currently giving us in terms of type balance, but I think it would all in all be very good for the game.

Resistance should, in theory work in the same manner as weakness, but have a lower threshold at 10- MAYBE 40 at most, and ALL Pokemon should have some sort of resistance- except for standard "Normal" types from the game.
 
Otaku said:
Gamester2488: I didn't play competitively back then (didn't know about League and tournaments weren't well advertised, if there were any in our area), but I did play, and like most areas even our small High School provided half a dozen "serious" players and another dozen competent players who were all big into Pokémon; the "fad phase" was in full bloom. Plus for various reasons, I've gone back and play-tested the Base-Fossil era quite a bit.

Just letting you know this isn't coming from someone who didn't experience those days first hand. Yes that format was pretty awful and this format is better. This format is also the product of over a decade of refining the game, where as Base Set - Team Rocket represents the first four sets of the game (five counting Base Set 2). You expect more from a college student than a first grader, or if that sounds too severe from a professional with 10+ years of experience over a college intern.

Most of the problems that plagued those early sets, by the way, are present now as well. I'll take today over then, however if I were allowed to at least cut S/ER from it, I'd take Base Set - Fossil... possibly through Team Rocket but I've actually tested the former quite a bit. This is before more severe (but in some ways more accurate) approaches, like comparing Base Set through Team Rocket, but with all Trainers replaced by their modern counterparts.

With our larger card pool, we have more decks, but most play awfully similar; again, better than the old days, but not the kind of improvement players expect... especially because a lot of us got used to just as diverse if not more diverse formats that have happened in the interim.
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The issue with the original format was that when you went to a tournament, you had very little "innovation" available. The format was also incredibly swingy.

I feel like this format leaves a lot more room for "playskill" than the original format, though I can see where the two compare. The more I get back into the game, the more similar I see. Decks are incredibly consistent, basic pokemon are incredibly strong in comparison to stage 2's, and there is generally not a lot of room for complete deck innovation.


I think that if Pokemon Catcher was an ACE Spec and Computer Search was a regular card, the format would be a lot better. Yes, you could consistently get your one Catcher, and Junk Hunt decks would still be incredibly strong, but the Stage 2's would most certainly be allowed to compete with the Big Basics.
 
Gamester2488 said:
I think that if Pokemon Catcher was an ACE Spec and Computer Search was a regular card, the format would be a lot better. Yes, you could consistently get your one Catcher, and Junk Hunt decks would still be incredibly strong, but the Stage 2's would most certainly be allowed to compete with the Big Basics.
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I have heard many similar solutions, and am more than happy to discuss "what if" scenarios (as you have gathered by now). However, I always caution people to try and examine what happens with the whole card pool, and avoid "scapegoating" cards. The following may be a bit lengthy, sorry.

Pokémon Catcher gets a lot of blame for the current format, but when you look at it in isolation, its effect isn't that impressive. You use an Item to change out your opponent's Active Pokémon. It requires this aggressive of a format like this one (speed and power that regularly guarantees an easy KO) to be a true problem. If Pokémon HP scores were jacked up to balance out damage output and/or the first one-to-three turns were mostly about setting up and not attacking for enough damage to OHKO at least Evolving Basic Pokémon, it would be a different story.

Lacking Pokémon Catcher in significant quantities risks shifting balance of power too far "the other way". Bench-sitters and spread/snipers suddenly become kings of the ring... er... Pokémon battlefield? No Pokémon Catcher/single Pokémon Catcher risks breaking things like Reuniclus with "Damage Swap" (Ability update to the Pokémon Power that originated with Base Set Alakazam). Sure any deck could still take a single one out easily, but the average Pokémon-EX would become nearly immortal unless countered by strong sniper or spread attacks when said Pokémon-EX is backed by Reuniclus.

Best way to get Evolutions competitive with Basic Pokémon, I think, is something never done format wide. It has been seen in some specific Evolution lines/Basic Pokémon, but never as the standard; dial back the offensive speed of Big Basic Pokémon (while keeping them otherwise as potent as equivalent Evolutions), while making lower Stages of Evolution lines worth playing beyond "I have to Evolve from this, therefore I must play this". Either from the attacking with or Abilities on lower Stages, the process of Evolving needs to generate advantage comparable to the number of deck "slots" and extra effort to enter play Evolving costs.
 
Otaku said:
Pokémon Catcher gets a lot of blame for the current format, but when you look at it in isolation, its effect isn't that impressive. You use an Item to change out your opponent's Active Pokémon. It requires this aggressive of a format like this one (speed and power that regularly guarantees an easy KO) to be a true problem. If Pokémon HP scores were jacked up to balance out damage output and/or the first one-to-three turns were mostly about setting up and not attacking for enough damage to OHKO at least Evolving Basic Pokémon, it would be a different story.

Lacking Pokémon Catcher in significant quantities risks shifting balance of power too far "the other way". Bench-sitters and spread/snipers suddenly become kings of the ring... er... Pokémon battlefield? No Pokémon Catcher/single Pokémon Catcher risks breaking things like Reuniclus with "Damage Swap" (Ability update to the Pokémon Power that originated with Base Set Alakazam). Sure any deck could still take a single one out easily, but the average Pokémon-EX would become nearly immortal unless countered by strong sniper or spread attacks when said Pokémon-EX is backed by Reuniclus.
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I can't take too long on this response, but briefly: Pokemon Catcher is what makes that aggression good. 3-energy-for-90 wouldn't be nearly as impressive without Pokemon Catcher; otherwise they would be more centrally countered by tanking decks like aforementioned Reuniclus. The rarity of any Pokemon that does NOT directly benefit from Catcher tells me that we have a format right now where Catcher is an expected and calculated inclusion.

Do you remember the format immediately before SP came out, when the top decks were Kingdra, Gengar, I believe Regigigas Lv. X, and others like that? It was immediately before I began playing competitively. That was an interesting format that did not have the benefit of Catcher or anything remotely resembling it (The closest was Warp Point which was actually quite powerful then, too). It would be interesting to compare that format to this one if someone remembered or did some research on it.
 
Catcher makes the bench unsafe. It makes developing pokemon much harder than in a format without catcher. Past experience, indeed current experience tells us that Catcher has a huge impact on the format.

Bench sitters are just that they don't attack. To even imply that formats without catcher/reversal were somehow less balanced than those with gust/catcher/reversal has me thinking that sometimes you argue just to argue.
 
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