New Tournament rules documents have been posted

[losjackal]

Go to http://support.pokemon.com/ and look in the Downloads section.

The most interesting...

2014 Play! Pokémon TCG Rules and Formats
New Section 8 called "Match Resolution during Swiss Rounds"
Section 8.3: Determining the Outcome of an Unresolved, Best-of-Three Match


Game 1
• If the last turn ends during game 1, the match results in a tie.
• If time is called after game 1 has been resolved but before the starting player for a Sudden Death game has been determined, the match results in a tie.
• If time is called after the game 1 winner has been determined but before the starting player for game 2 has been determined, the winner of game 1 wins the match.


Game 2
• If the last turn ends during game 2, the winner of game 1 wins the match.
• If time is called after game 2 has been resolved but before the starting player for a Sudden Death game has been determined, the winner of game 1 wins the match.
• If time is called after the game 2 winner has been determined but before the starting player for game 3 has been determined, the match results in a tie.


Game 3
• If the last turn ends during game 3, the match results in a tie.
• If time is called after game 3 has been resolved but before the starting player for a Sudden Death game has been determined, the match results in a tie.

 

[Pikabruce]

Given the player discussions about "intentional draw", they should have said whether intentional ties will be legal or not. (And if they are not legal, what would be the penalty for players who got caught trying to intentionally tie a match: would both players get a match loss, or would both players be disqualified? Without clarification, it seems possible that some of the players at Regionals who go into the last round of Swiss with a x-1 record will consider collaborating on an intentional tie.)

 

[ExoByte]

Given the player discussions about "intentional draw", they should have said whether intentional ties will be legal or not. (And if they are not legal, what would be the penalty for players who got caught trying to intentionally tie a match: would both players get a match loss, or would both players be disqualified? Without clarification, it seems possible that some of the players at Regionals who go into the last round of Swiss with a x-1 record will consider collaborating on an intentional tie.)

I'm not on the OP team and can't go into all the particulars, but intentional draws are allowed.

 

[Hamster]

Game 2
• If time is called after game 2 has been resolved but before the starting player for a Sudden Death game has been determined, the winner of game 1 wins the match.
• If time is called after the game 2 winner has been determined but before the starting player for game 3 has been determined, the match results in a tie.

Aren't these two sentences contradicting themselves? If time is called after game 2 the match goes to sudden death. There is no game 3 like the second scenario states. It sounds like two totally different outcomes for the exact same scenario. In both cases the winner of game 2 is determined and time is called before the coin flip. Am I missing something here?

Game 3
• If the last turn ends during game 3, the match results in a tie.
• If time is called after game 3 has been resolved but before the starting player for a Sudden Death game has been determined, the match results in a tie.

What if you win on the last turn of +3? I assume the match goes to that player? What about taking your last prize card on the last turn of +3 in game 2, resulting in a 1-1 game count for the match?

Regarding the last sentence, when has there ever been sudden death after the winner of game 3 is determined in a b-0-3?

 

[khit]

I'm pretty sure the first scenario, where it says the game is resolved means that the game ended in a tie, so players re shuffle and re draw for sudden death to determine a winner, if time is called during that setting up time it's a tie, the second scenario is describing if a player flat out wins the match (This includes sudden death IF the entire sudden death game is played and a winner is determined)

Basically, if you haven't started sudden death, the game ends in a tie, so I'm guessing this means if you've already started your sudden death match you get to finish even if time is called, right?

 

[dadoc]

Aren't these two sentences contradicting themselves? If time is called after game 2 the match goes to sudden death. There is no game 3 like the second scenario states. It sounds like two totally different outcomes for the exact same scenario. In both cases the winner of game 2 is determined and time is called before the coin flip. Am I missing something here?



What if you win on the last turn of +3? I assume the match goes to that player? What about taking your last prize card on the last turn of +3 in game 2, resulting in a 1-1 game count for the match?

Regarding the last sentence, when has there ever been sudden death after the winner of game 3 is determined in a b-0-3?

this is how i understand them:

resolved =\= winner determined,
a game resolved is a game finished,
a game can be resolved without a winner, such as both players taking the last prize, so a sudden death game is needed.

 

[sdrawkcab]

So there is no longer a 4 prize card rule?

 

[dadoc]

So there is no longer a 4 prize card rule?

not in swiss, but still in top cut.

 

[Hamster]

So this:

Game 2
• If time is called after game 2 has been resolved but before the starting player for a Sudden Death game has been determined, the winner of game 1 wins the match.

is only relevant for selfdestruct, recoil damage, and simultaneous poison/burn KO scenarios?

 

[bullados]

So this:



is only relevant for selfdestruct and simultaneous poison/burn KO scenarios?

More generically, game-state tie scenarios such as those outlined in the rulebooks...

 

[LOLZ]

So this:



is only relevant for selfdestruct and simultaneous poison/burn KO scenarios?

Yes and anything that causes both players to achieve a win condition at the same time.

 

[King Piplup]

Also, the way Bo1 reads, it seems that regardless of prize count at the end of +3 if the game isn't complete it's a draw.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

I would have like to see that whoever is up on prizes in G1 or G3 wins. I would have also like to see if 4 prizes are drawn by one player, then G2 counts. If you win/lose G1, but your opponent has taken 4 prizes when +3 turns is over, then it should be a tie, not a win/loss

Drew

 

[ajhawk]

@King Piplup: I don't see anything there about a +3.

I'm pretty disappointed in these rules along with only 50 minutes. There is going to be a TON of slowplaying. Even if you are extremely down in game 1 and scoop early, you probably wasted 15+ minutes. Add in time to get the second game started and you will have only 30ish minutes to play game two. I see the winner of game one stalling game two out really hard. Because so long as the last prize has not been taken in game two, the player who won game one wins the match.

 

[pokeMATHter]

@King Piplup: I don't see anything there about a +3.

I'm pretty disappointed in these rules along with only 50 minutes. There is going to be a TON of slowplaying. Even if you are extremely down in game 1 and scoop early, you probably wasted 15+ minutes. Add in time to get the second game started and you will have only 30ish minutes to play game two. I see the winner of game one stalling game two out really hard. Because so long as the last prize has not been taken in game two, the player who won game one wins the match.

If you read the document, the +3 turns are clearly outlined at the start of section 8.1.

I agree with your concerns about stalling. In best of three, you have to watch for the person who is ahead. In single game, you have to watch for the person who is behind because they may be trying to play for a tie, rather than a loss.

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

This is a really poor setup I think. 50 minutes was already going to be difficult to finish 3 games or even get into a 3rd game. Now the player who wins game 1 has incentive to slowplay and not let game 2 finish. If it gets to a game 3, whoever falls behind has incentive to slowplay. During swiss, there won't be nearly enough judges to control this. The format is also about to get slower, fewer donks, more setup decks being competitive, next month. I really think this is going to be a nightmare for both players and judges, every round.

 

[Rainbowgym]

I would have like to see that whoever is up on prizes in G1 or G3 wins. I would have also like to see if 4 prizes are drawn by one player, then G2 counts. If you win/lose G1, but your opponent has taken 4 prizes when +3 turns is over, then it should be a tie, not a win/loss

Drew

Removing the prize count is horrible.
With these new rule the +3 turns are not needed anymore.

 

[Mystery Thing]

50 minutes was already going to be difficult to finish 3 games or even get into a 3rd game.

You assume the point of 50 minutes b2o3 is to play a best 2 of 3. I still maintain that is an incorrect assumption. The way I see it, it's nothing other than to give you a least a shred of protection against donks (which, yes, should drop in number with the new first turn rules, but still.)

 

[Pidgeotto Trainer]

You assume the point of 50 minutes b2o3 is to play a best 2 of 3. I still maintain that is an incorrect assumption. The way I see it, it's nothing other than to give you a least a shred of protection against donks (which, yes, should drop in number with the new first turn rules, but still.)

If we're accepting the premise that 50 minutes is not enough for full 3 games (which I agree with completely), then the tie rules make even less sense. Game 3 is meaningless if it isn't complete and we're saying it's not going to be complete. Having time for 3 full games is also really the only way you could avoid the slowplay into a tie scenarios. Protection against donks is nice, but these changes are opening problems that will happen far far more often than donks, especially as the format gets slower next month.

 

[Mystery Thing]

If we're accepting the premise that 50 minutes is not enough for full 3 games (which I agree with completely), then the tie rules make even less sense. Game 3 is meaningless if it isn't complete and we're saying it's not going to be complete. Having time for 3 full games is also really the only way you could avoid the slowplay into a tie scenarios. Protection against donks is nice, but these changes are opening problems that will happen far far more often than donks, especially as the format gets slower next month.

I don't disagree that we're going to see a ton of ties, and probably more than anybody really wants to see. It wouldn't shock me if the only way a match gets through three complete games is a pair of donks occurring.

But really, what has to happen for it to even get to game 3 in that short of time span? Most likely, it'll be a donk followed by a "real" game or a "real" game followed by a donk, at which point the match IS tied. But if game 3 is allowed to play out, then you can get what happened at Worlds in the one LCQ MA round (round 4 I think?) this year - a tied game 1-1 after the +3, followed by an SD game that took 20+ minutes. The main purpose of ties being a thing again (at least, as far as I've understood it) is to get tournaments into a more predictable span of time. Nothing can screw up a TO's planned venue schedule like three consecutive rounds each going a minimum of 15 minutes overtime, one of which went 26 minutes overtime (which is what happened at the LCQ - adding an hour onto the day just because 6 players needed some SD and played uber-defensively once they got there - not being critical of their play; maybe that's how they had to play it, but whatever the case, it was a ton of added time).

Obviously I don't speak for TPCI or anything of the like. But yeah, as I understand what's going on, the point of b2/3 is for nothing other than to give you at least a fighting chance if you get donked, and the point of ties is primarily for helping TOs plan their venue times without the possibility of obscene amounts of SD time ballooning days out.