A Petition to Ban Tropical Beach

[losjackal]

1 card less won't do much if u use N on second turn. Also, it isnt only about the number of cards, but the set up itself. If u go first AND get beach (pretty easy), u can set up ur squirtle (or whatever basic u need for the next turn). Meaning u will most likely get a big play on second turn

Based on watching your gameplay on the first turn, the point of N'ing you is to shuffle away the Rare Candy and Blastoise you may have kept in your hand before you Beached. With six new cards, chances are you'll re-draw one or the other, but not both. So you'll spend the duration of your second turn recovering from the N, and maybe Beaching again, since you wouldn't have all the cards you'd need to Deluge and attack.

The point is, whatever advantage you try to get by using Tropical Beach going first can be undone with a card like N or Ghetsis. It can be an advantage, but it's not huge, and it's not impossible to counter.

 

[CeNturist]

2013 Canadian National Champion Zach Lesage played Beach in a deck that would not be viable without it.
2013 US National Champion Edmund Kuras played Beach in Gothitelle then got destroyed at Worlds because even though Beach makes it viable, it does terrible in an environment that people are prepared for it.
2013 Junior World Champion Ondřej Kujal played 0 Beach.
2013 Senior World Champion Kaiwen Cabbabe played 0 Beach.
2013 Masters World Champion Jason Klaczynski played 0 Beach.
2013 Klaczynski Open Champion Lex D'Andrea played 0 Beach.

Removing Beach takes away from the list of usable decks. Beach is not required to win a major event.

Juniors and seniors is not relevant and never has been.

Look at the entire top cut, beach was in numerous decks. Just because a deck without Beach has the ability to win does not mean Beach should remain untouched. It's obviously played in numerous decks in the meta and it's extremely expensive to the point of being unaffordable for many players. In other words, its cost is altering the meta which is the point of the whole thread.

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Lets look at another event like pokemon worlds. How about the Olympics. With the Olympics compared to beach you want all counties to get a gold metal? Or since you did not win the gold metal you want all gold metals band? Its simple beach is a card that is given to the great pokemon players and they get to do whatever they want with it. Banning or re-printing beach is like saying to those who won a gold metal at the Olympics the gold metal is not worth all the time and effort that one person or team put into winning it.

You can't use a Gold Medal to run faster.
You can use Tropical Beach in a competitive deck to gain a competitive advantage.

Your analogy is illogical.

Banning it does not make it any less symbolic of the accomplishment. It's meant to be a trophy card and that would be retained regardless of its playability.

Your argument is illogical.

 

[rileysill32]

2013 Canadian National Champion Zach Lesage played Beach in a deck that would not be viable without it.
2013 US National Champion Edmund Kuras played Beach in Gothitelle then got destroyed at Worlds because even though Beach makes it viable, it does terrible in an environment that people are prepared for it.
2013 Junior World Champion Ondřej Kujal played 0 Beach.
2013 Senior World Champion Kaiwen Cabbabe played 0 Beach.
2013 Masters World Champion Jason Klaczynski played 0 Beach.
2013 Klaczynski Open Champion Lex D'Andrea played 0 Beach.

Removing Beach takes away from the list of usable decks. Beach is not required to win a major event.

All the 2013 listed do not have the upcoming rule change. Argument, invalid.

 

[HoLoN_TrAiNeR]

So, they ban it: Another format dominated by basic-only decks.
They reprint it: Blastoise = 90% of the field.

Not comfortable with any of these!

 

[rileysill32]

So, they ban it: Another format dominated by basic-only decks.
They reprint it: Blastoise = 90% of the field.

Not comfortable with any of these!

You can't just predict a format dominated by basic only decks when a rule change is going to take place that negates T1 attacks.
Nobody knows anything. These rule changes are going to completely change the way the game is played.

 

[espeon200]

Just because a deck without Beach has the ability to win does not mean Beach should remain untouched.

Um... Actually, that's the reason it should remain untouched. It doesn't break the game state, it just gives a slight advantage if a player gets it out turn one.

 

[RyuAmph]

My question to folks who complain that it makes Blastoise too good: Is Blastoise the only deck that would benefit from a turn one hand reinforcement? Decks like Flareon and Tool Box, even red face paint decks that relied upon a good early setup, all need to be taken into consideration. Obviously Blastoise becomes a lot stronger with the new Catcher rule, but a promotional release of Beach or a similar effect could add to the viable deck pool.

Also, we have not seen what XY has to offer yet, so Playa Tropical may not even be as good as it seems now.

 

[Charranitar]

Come on guys, this just screams of pre-emptive excuse making for not doing well next format. If you think Tropical Beach is the only way to gain an advantage relative to other decks on the first turn, then you're sadly mistaken.

Above that, if we end up with a Beach heavy meta game it's well balanced by the cards that will exist in the format as well as pre-existing strategies.

-If your opponent plays down Tropical Beach on turn 1, you can also use the Tropical Beach.
-If your opponent plays down Tropical Beach on turn 1, you can have an advantage by having the first attack in the game.
-If your opponent plays down Tropical Beach on turn 1, Beaches for 7, you can use Spiritomb to shuffle in your hand and draw 7, with the shuffle and draw potentially being more beneficial than just drawing cards until you have 7.
-If your opponent plays down Tropical Beach on turn 1, Beaches for 7, you can play Hooligans Jim & Cas, and if heads put their hand down to 4. From there you can Beach for 7 for a card advantage, or play down your own Stadium to mess up their draw.
-If your opponent plays down Tropical Beach on turn 1, Beaches for 7, you can play Hugh to cut their hand down to 5.
-If your opponent plays down Tropical Beach on turn 1, Beaches for 7, you can play Ghetsis to remove all of the Items from their hand, likely stunting whatever turn 2 combo they had in mind.

That's just some ways you can strategize around Tropical Beach. There are also strategies that can be described as ignoring their Tropical Beach play and just going about some other strategy to gain an advantage over your opponent.

 

[LionheartEX]

Juniors and seniors is not relevant and never has been.

This flow of mentality has honeslty made any of your arguments completely invalid in my eyes.

You can use Tropical Beach in a competitive deck to gain a competitive advantage.


Banning it does not make it any less symbolic of the accomplishment. It's meant to be a trophy card and that would be retained regardless of its playability.

Your argument is illogical.

But you have options other than decks that run beach. You are jumping the gun. You don't know what X and Y will bring. You don't have a clear idea of the impact Legendary Treasures will have (despite the set being largely reprints). You don't have a good grasp of the format after November 8th. Your posts are uneducated and don't really bring up any valid arguments aside from "QQ I can't afford beach therefore I want it banned."

You're basing your entire argument on theorized results, and the results of a mere two decks in the meta.

They would not ban a card based on it's limited availabilty.

IF TPCi saw this card as an issue (and their R&D team is pretty good - they do read this stuff), I'd expect to see it in LTR as an Ultra Rare or Secret Rare so the card retains some value, while being widely available.

Honestly, god forbid we have to fork out a little extra cash for one or two decks. Magic and YGO decks at top tier cost upwards of $1000 - Pokemon can build top tier for $200 on average and have no issue keeping up with Blastoise or any other deck that relies on beach.

TLDR; Play Better.

 

[FirestormXVI]

All the 2013 listed do not have the upcoming rule change. Argument, invalid.

Then don't ask me for results from 2013. I merely showed him what he asked for.

You can't just predict a format dominated by basic only decks when a rule change is going to take place that negates T1 attacks.
Nobody knows anything. These rule changes are going to completely change the way the game is played.

Thank you for explaining why petitioining for Beach to be banned is stupid.

 

[Mekkah]

I think banning any card before any tournaments have been played with it in a very new format is silly.

But I also think the card is (going to be) too expensive for the good of the game, and the higher ups will need to do something about it very quickly if it turns out to be very important to have one.

 

[Benjineer]

I don't think that Pokemon Should ban Tropical beach, or even nerf it. Though I agree that it is too hard to get, it is not too powerful a card. I think that they just need to reprint it or release it as a new promo that isn't quite as difficult to get. Even if they made them secret rares in the next set, that would make a huge difference. It is unfair to the people who got the cards at worlds, and to the people who have spent hundreds of dollars on them to just ban the card outright. Banning has never seemed to be Pokemon's style, so I hope that they don't start now.

 

[thepokemonnetwork100]

honestly just get over it or dont play its a hobby, hobbies cost money go play yugioh or magic where there are multiple cards that are $100 or more most of which you have to have or you not gonna win

 

[bruticus0]

I think the principal is pretty simple. I can at least get a chance to get a pokemon card through a booster pack or another product that pokemon puts out.

With Tropical Beach, I do not get that chance. There is absolutely no chance of me getting it through buying a pokemon product. Until that's fixed, it makes a "Pay2Play/Elitist" category for pokemon cards.

I don't care what advantages/disadvantages you want to argue about are. If the player base cannot get a fair shot at getting a card through a product purchase, the card shouldn't exist.

No matter the market value of ND's Mewtwo, I can still buy a product of NextDestinies and have a shot at getting it. This framework allows participation by every consumer of pokemon products. This card goes against this principal framework.

It's not that the secondary market price is so high. It's the fact that there is no primary market to obtain it from.

 

[Charranitar]

^^ That's one way, but a problem with releasing it in the next set is that it would remain legal for 2014-2015. They might not want that.

I don't know about manufacturing and distribution issues, but the way to preserve the legality while releasing more of them into circulation is to create a blister pack or boxed product with the existing BW28 or BW50 promos. They would be unstamped, meaning the stamped Worlds promos would still command a premium, yet make Tropical Beach as a playable card be more accessible. But we could encounter problems that Plasma Landorus has now.

P.S. Pokémon doesn't ban cards as a matter of course. Value aside, it would look really bad to ban a Worlds-exclusive trophy card.

I don't see any reason why Pokemon wouldn't want Tropical Beach around longer under a situation in which all players have access to it. It's a Stadium that promotes consistency and doesn't have an overpowered effect that completely changes the way the game is played. It's entirely healthy for the game. I think the only reason people view it as unhealthy right now is because of the lack of availability of it, while also being a very strong card. So I don't see having it around longer being something Pokemon would be too concerned about.

What I do think they are concerned about is maintaining some of its value for world's competitors. It was going for around $60-80 when it didn't see play, so I think it's safe to say if it was relegated to just a trophy card, it would probably still net around $40-50.

One way they could approach this problem is to reprint the card under a different name. From there they can leave it be (Pokeball/Victory Cup), or make a Juniper/Sycamore rule. I would think printing a card with a different name would help Tropical Beach maintain more of its Trophy Card value than if there was a Promo Beach or a release of unstamped Beaches to the mass public.

 

[losjackal]

I don't care what advantages/disadvantages you want to argue about are. If the player base cannot get a fair shot at getting a card through a product purchase, the card shouldn't exist.

That's a fair argument, to be against the idea of exclusive prize cards, but then it's not anything new and certainly not special to Tropical Beach. This argument doesn't support the notion that something MUST be done right now.

I don't see any reason why Pokemon wouldn't want Tropical Beach around longer under a situation in which all players have access to it. It's a Stadium that promotes consistency and doesn't have an overpowered effect that completely changes the way the game is played. It's entirely healthy for the game. I think the only reason people view it as unhealthy right now is because of the lack of availability of it, while also being a very strong card. So I don't see having it around longer being something Pokemon would be too concerned about.

You could make this argument for any useful stadium, though; Pokemon Contest Hall and Speed Stadium are even similar examples that can help consistency. If you just look at the promo numbers, the rotation will likely cut off at BW51 where the Plasma-themed promos start, letting Tropical Beach rotate. Or, they could choose to cut off at BW50, which keeps both Beaches legal for another year. TPCi doesn't need much reason to be pushed either way, but the point was introducing it in a set constrains them much more.


In short, if they want to release unstamped Tropical Beach as a promo blister or boxed product, they can still make a separate decision to let it rotate or not.

 

[castre]

Everyone made some good points. I'm new to this site, but not too new to the game. I think the point this guy was trying to make is that it's just simply not fair in any aspect. Obviously, if you're playing it, your deck is better suited for it. It's not fair if you don't have a butt-ton of money to shell out for, most of us don't. And I frankly think people that spend hundreds of dollars on one card that can be substituted for something else, are kinda stupid. Sorry, but investing that much just isn't fair to anyone.

It honestly does need a reprint. There's my stand on this. It's a staple, and it shouldn't have been an event promo. Twice, at that. Fingers crossed that they do this by the 6th gen tcg card packs.

 

[JohnnyBlaze]

Whats the problem with Tropical Beach? Both players get to use it!! It really doesnt provide that much of an advantage for the 1st turn player because guess what? Ill just N your hand you got off of Beach!! So far absolutely no one that favors banning Tropical Beach has provided any good examples of why it is OP in the current meta. The only thing that you have justified is its outlandish price but by no means is it way overpowered in terms of gameplay!! If you want to argue N is the most powerful card in the current meta but thats another debate for a different topic.

In fact thank you for the poster who pointed out that the main decks that have won Championships did not use Tropical Beach. Those facts alone should be enough reason not to ban Tropical Beach!!

 

[LionheartEX]

Whats the problem with Tropical Beach? Both players get to use it!! It really doesnt provide that much of an advantage for the 1st turn player because guess what? Ill just N your hand you got off of Beach!! So far absolutely no one that favors banning Tropical Beach has provided any good examples of why it is OP in the current meta. The only thing that you have justified is its outlandish price but by no means is it way overpowered in terms of gameplay!! If you want to argue N is the most powerful card in the current meta but thats another debate for a different topic.

In fact thank you for the poster who pointed out that the main decks that have won Championships did not use Tropical Beach. Those facts alone should be enough reason not to ban Tropical Beach!!

The whole "Your opponent gets to use it" argument is invalid. By not having the card in decks that require it is leaving you at a severe disadvantage - you lose a lot of control. And what if you come up against a deck that doesn't run beach?

Relying on your opponent to play a card is just bad advice and the mentality should not be encouraged in this specific situation.

Virbank was different as it was easy to access and the meta was different - it was established - so good players could build their decks around this. Moving into a new meta, you can't guarantee that all your opponents will have beach (especially given it's availability), so it's bad thinking to rely on that.

That said, I do not agree the card should be banned. People just need to play other decks instead if they can't get beach. This is where skill comes into deckbuilding. The only point I really agree on the card should be more widely available - as a Secret or Ultra rare in LTR or even as a promo somewhere - but not to the point where the current beaches completely lose value.

 

[JohnnyBlaze]

The whole "Your opponent gets to use it" argument is invalid. By not having the card in decks that require it is leaving you at a severe disadvantage - you lose a lot of control. And what if you come up against a deck that doesn't run beach?

Lionheart you said it yourself:

People just need to play other decks instead if they can't get beach.

The current Pokemon meta is such that there are a wide variety of decks that can be played without the use of Tropical Beach as its main Stadium. This is another argument why Tropical Beach does not need a ban. If Tropical Beach needed to be run in every single deck because of the current meta then I would agree with other people to reprint it in some manner. As this is not the current case there is no need for a ban or a reprint of Tropical Beach.

Pokemon needs to tread carefully on banning and reprinting World exclusive cards because then the game will turn into Yugioh with all its bans and reprints of expensive cards.