A response to those wanting details on decks played

[Lawman]

Wouldn't it just be easier if PUI released all deck lists online? No need to worry about keeping your list secret, no accusations towards PTOs about showing their kids lists.

Hmm....lets see, either a PTO spends a great deal of time typing in multiple decklists (you said all) or scanning said lists (you have seen some of the players' handwriting...barely legible in person!) or mailing them all into PUI's home office. Then, on top of all the other duties our small band of OP workers has....someone has to draw the "short stick" and weed thru all these lists and upload them to their website. (BTW...I'm NOT volunteering Mike, Pete, Dave, Jimmer, et al to do any of this!)

Bottom line...this wont happen. Now, if it is just winners' lists....that may become workable. Again....I dont know who you "draft" at PUI to do this....they are all very busy already (contrary to what some of you may think!)

Keith

 

[KingGengar]

I don't like the idea of posting everyone's complete decklist. I'll give the analogy of a street rod to make my case.

Every street racer shows off. The outside of his car is for public display, and the car's performance is public knowledge. However, the special work that a mechanic puts into his engine, trans, etc, are not for public dissemination. These details remain in the possession of any smart greasemonkey.

In reference then to decklists, I believe it would be "just fine" to post the list of Pokemon for any and every deck played at a tournament (this is the exterior of the vehicle), but the Trainer and Energy line ought to be secret, since those are proprietary.

So, for example, a posted decklist can state:
4-2-4 Garchomp
2-2 Delcatty
2-2 Magneton
1 Tauros

... and that will be that.

No one in their right mind can believe that a known Pokemon line equals a solid deck. It takes skill to get the Trainer engine tuned just right. Here's an example:

4-3-1 Riolu
3-2-3 Machamp

Now, can you build a solid Mario from that? Not really. You need to know the rest of it.

 

[OLD_SCHOOL_PLAYER]

Who says 4-3-1 riolu ? lol

 

[SHPanda]

mario players, cuz riolu is their win condition.

 

[Prime]

Posting States/Regionals/Nationals/Worlds deck lists for the winner would be great. We need something to cut through some of the secretiveness that surrounds the game.

 

[desert eagle]

Posting States/Regionals/Nationals/Worlds deck lists for the winner would be great. We need something to cut through some of the secretiveness that surrounds the game.

Worlds is already done through the Championship decks.

Posting States and Nationals would be utterly stupid as Regionals has the same format as States for the most part (no set in between) and posting states lists would basically lower good player' chances of winning regionals dramatically. Ditto for Nationals with Worlds coming up.

Regionals is the only tournament where it wouldn't be completely disadvantageous to post decklists.

 

[Prime]

Desert Eagle, I disagree. The second a deck wins a state, the chances that player can take that deck to a regionals and do well has lowered drastically. Putting the list of it online would only lower it a little more.

Since states are happening on 2 weekends, that gives players 4 chances to go to States. People will go to the states around them most likely. When Regionals come up, players from around the region come and play. Who do you think you're going to see at Regionals? The same exact people you saw at the States you went to. So the people you beat at States will be at Regionals and will know what you played and most likely have already come up with a decent list to test against at home. You've already lost the surprise-edge you had, and now your opponent has a good idea what is in your deck.

Please tell me how posting your list online after states are over would hurt your chances at Regionals anymore than winning states did?

 

[desert eagle]

Most people can not come up with a decent decklist, even knowing the main Pokemon. It is highly unlikely that any "SD" can be developed for Regionals that people haven't seen for states, since again, the same sets of cards are available. The bulk of the regionals metagame will be winning states decks from accross North America, but most of them will be playing poorly executed lists and since Regionals is the one tournament where SDs are the hardest to pull off, simple metagaming should be the most effective way to win a Regionals.

Simple metagaming gets harder when your matchups shift down a good 10-20 percent because everyone is playing legit lists.

For example (not using real numbers, just pulled off the top of my head):
Say you expect a Flygon metagame and you go with Metalix. Assume Metalix has a generally accepted Flygon matchup of 75-25, but against a bad Flygon list, you can expect to win maybe 90-10.

During regionals you run into 4 Flygons. Your chances of going 4-0 through those 4 Flygon matches just dropped from 65.61% to 31.6% - more than half. That's not a smart thing to do for most players.

 

[Prime]

Most...would be the correct word, since most players aren't competitive at all, and most players don't even play in tournaments. But for the ones you would see in the top cut at States, I feel most of those players would be able to come up with a decent decklist. I don't feel you are giving many players the credit they deserve. It's not hard to come up with a decent decklist after a tournament. The pokemon is the easiest. If you play the person with the deck, you can see many if not most the trainers they play. All you have to do after that is get the numbers correct. For the energy, it's not that important. Most energy combinations will work, and it will require tweaking to get the best performance, but it doesn't affect the deck as much as trainers and pokemon does.

Play a decent player in a game that goes down to the line (1 prize each) and I bet you they will be able to come up with a competent list afterwards. I can't speak for every player, but I feel there are plenty of players that could do it.

I agree that the odds of a new SD at Regionals is slim. If anything, people will counter the big decks at States, and call the counters the new SD. I haven't seen a true SD in a while though.

 

[galonso]

no one said hiding deck names is bad. only when you go to a public forum like pokegym and flaunt deck reports that only your clique can decipher, thats when its going a lil too far.

QFT

 

[desert eagle]

Most...would be the correct word, since most players aren't competitive at all, and most players don't even play in tournaments. But for the ones you would see in the top cut at States, I feel most of those players would be able to come up with a decent decklist. I don't feel you are giving many players the credit they deserve. It's not hard to come up with a decent decklist after a tournament. The pokemon is the easiest. If you play the person with the deck, you can see many if not most the trainers they play. All you have to do after that is get the numbers correct. For the energy, it's not that important. Most energy combinations will work, and it will require tweaking to get the best performance, but it doesn't affect the deck as much as trainers and pokemon does.

Play a decent player in a game that goes down to the line (1 prize each) and I bet you they will be able to come up with a competent list afterwards. I can't speak for every player, but I feel there are plenty of players that could do it.

I agree that the odds of a new SD at Regionals is slim. If anything, people will counter the big decks at States, and call the counters the new SD. I haven't seen a true SD in a while though.

I'm not talking about the decks people see in person. I'm talking about decks that win a States accross the nation, which will most likely also show up at Regionals at your area. For example, Players in NE haven't seen the FL states winners decks and most wouldn't be able to come up with a good list since they never saw the deck in action.

 

[Dante63s]

I'm not talking about the decks people see in person. I'm talking about decks that win a States accross the nation, which will most likely also show up at Regionals at your area. For example, Players in NE haven't seen the FL states winners decks and most wouldn't be able to come up with a good list since they never saw the deck in action.

As a player, you should be prepared for any deck, and not cry if some one is using the same one :thumb:

 

[Prime]

I'm not talking about the decks people see in person. I'm talking about decks that win a States accross the nation, which will most likely also show up at Regionals at your area. For example, Players in NE haven't seen the FL states winners decks and most wouldn't be able to come up with a good list since they never saw the deck in action.

That's true that it is much harder to come up with a list for a deck without seeing it yourself, but I don't think that matters that much since everyone in an area away from the area a deck was made will have to pick and guess to make a list. Unless there are players with "connections" to the FL players (per example), which I am sure there are because many of the best players in the game stay in touch with other good players for that reason (and others).

Also, you would never see a NE player at a Regionals around Florida, so if they got a FL list online and made a deck for it, it wouldn't hurt you anyways.

That's the point. Posting lists don't hurt you that much more than playing the deck and winning consistently in your area does. Oh, you may be helping the whole world, but you don't have to worry about seeing the whole world at a tournament (other than Worlds or Nationals) so in most cases, it doesn't really lower your chances of doing well. The whole, "posting the list would lower my chances of doing well at a tournament after I won a tournament with the deck once before" idea is just a myth.

 

[KingGengar]

I think the issue is a little more complicated.

First, you have the netdeckers. But.. and let's be honest.. a netdecker isn't (most of the time) going to be able to play at the same level as the creative deck-maker. The exceptions to this are obvious: (a) when the creative deck-maker is as much of a novice as the netdecker, and (b) when the netdecker is a seasoned player who can spot a good thing when he sees it.

Second, what is the incentive for a seasoned player to netdeck? Obviously, winning. Let's look at Flariados. Unveiled by John Silvestro, it soon became a widely-played deck, and yet people did not have the same success as John. Was it the decklist itself? Maybe. But then John shared some of his information also with certain people. And yet they also did not experience the same success as Mr. Multi.

Another consideration is pride. Many seasoned players get a kick out of making their own decks, or versions of them. Integrity is on the line. No one wants to be called a copycat. Even when decklists are shared openly, changes are made, techs are added. Decks inevitably become personal expressions of the player. Rarely does a player exactly copy another player's deck, even if it wins big.

So, what are the real ramifications of exposing a decklist?
(a) someone may copy it. But as I've shown, novices are rarely successful, and seasoned players are rarely genuine imitators.
(b) someone may tech against it. Well... do we really need to say this? When you tech against one thing, you're susceptible to another. For example, if we knew that Blissey/Electivire were going to be the metagame, and had the opponent's true decklist, could we successfully carry out a plan of domination? Not really, because if someone decided to play Fighting just to counter the metagame, then that Fighting deck becomes susceptible to something else. Perhaps Psychic, like a good Crobat/Toxicroak. Or maybe Fire vs Meganium, like a good Magmortar deck. Even if we say that the metagame doesn't support those decks, it doesn't take a genius to see that a vaccum rarely stays unfilled. Blissey will spawn antidotes regardless whether the decklist is known, and the same goes for the Fighting remedy which may arise.

So, all in all, I don't see the danger in exposing one's decklist. But, as I said, I don't think PUI should publicly announce anyone's decklist beyond the Pokemon without the player's permission.

 

[desert eagle]

That's true that it is much harder to come up with a list for a deck without seeing it yourself, but I don't think that matters that much since everyone in an area away from the area a deck was made will have to pick and guess to make a list. Unless there are players with "connections" to the FL players (per example), which I am sure there are because many of the best players in the game stay in touch with other good players for that reason (and others).

Also, you would never see a NE player at a Regionals around Florida, so if they got a FL list online and made a deck for it, it wouldn't hurt you anyways.

That's the point. Posting lists don't hurt you that much more than playing the deck and winning consistently in your area does. Oh, you may be helping the whole world, but you don't have to worry about seeing the whole world at a tournament (other than Worlds or Nationals) so in most cases, it doesn't really lower your chances of doing well. The whole, "posting the list would lower my chances of doing well at a tournament after I won a tournament with the deck once before" idea is just a myth.

but if the NE player picks the Florida player's decklist off the internet, theres the problem. Good players lose the biggest advantage they have.

And King Gengar, the statement you made about bad players not being able to play a deck is only partially true. Although they may lose games because of misplays, what stops them from beating someone good when the deck sets up properly, when someone playing a bad list wouldn't set up properly in that situation? It's not about them being successful, its about them beating you in that ONE game where you have to face them. If you get drawn against this novice round 1, and lose because of the deck they got, it doesn't matter if they go 0-X the rest of the way, you just got screwed because they got a good list.

I helped out a player thought of by many to be a joke here, who usually does bad at tournaments. With a variation of my Ramen TRUK deck (not even close to the real list as I'm not allowed to give that out, but alot better than almost all decks here), the guy went 4-0 in swiss, beating players he wouldn't normally beat, simply because the deck is good. Although he did lose t4 to a misplay, he knocked people out of T4 who would normally be in there on the deck's strength alone, although he is getting a little better at the game learning from me.

 

[SteveP]

If you win a tournament I judge or play at, I'm going to post what you played so that many others will know. I'm not going to post your decklist, but I will reveal your main attackers. If you have a problem with that, go play in the midwest.

Also, when I said "Tell me somthing meaningful....," I was talking about those who post meaningless tournament reports.

Think of it this way. When you submit a book report in school, your teacher expects certain things in the report. If your report is vague and doesn't conform to the required format, chances are, your grade will be low. Likewise, tournament reports that are vague and don't conform get low grades. But then again, some students don't care what grades they get.

"TRUK" Book Report

Kid's parents die.
Stupid uncle adopts him.
"Dude, you're special!"
Kid goes to school, learns some cool tricks.
Kid saves the day.

(Harry Potter book report)

 

[Dante63s]

but if the NE player picks the Florida player's decklist off the internet, theres the problem. Good players lose the biggest advantage they have.

And King Gengar, the statement you made about bad players not being able to play a deck is only partially true. Although they may lose games because of misplays, what stops them from beating someone good when the deck sets up properly, when someone playing a bad list wouldn't set up properly in that situation? It's not about them being successful, its about them beating you in that ONE game where you have to face them. If you get drawn against this novice round 1, and lose because of the deck they got, it doesn't matter if they go 0-X the rest of the way, you just got screwed because they got a good list.

I helped out a player thought of by many to be a joke here, who usually does bad at tournaments. With a variation of my Ramen TRUK deck (not even close to the real list as I'm not allowed to give that out, but alot better than almost all decks here), the guy went 4-0 in swiss, beating players he wouldn't normally beat, simply because the deck is good. Although he did lose t4 to a misplay, he knocked people out of T4 who would normally be in there on the deck's strength alone, although he is getting a little better at the game learning from me.

I don't agree completely with Darkgengar, their is a lot of luck involved, I notice that novice players, have a lot of that. Even if you play a secret deck, most likely you wont reveal the list, of course, most importantly you will reveal the secret TECH, this is nearly impossible to avoid and for more experienced player, rater easy to find, ether by contact, testing or simply because they are obvious. In most cases a player even having the same list, will modify it. I agree with the part of " They copy your deck and you have to play them" this happened to me when, Gart MT came out, I used it at BR, won, next week BR, their where tons of Gart MT, their list's where rather bad, but they had better luck that me, I guess. So my main point is that if you have a really secret deck, you can use or save it, both options have bad parts, Option 1, you will win some tournaments, but everybody will copycat you. Option 2, you might save it for a bigger tournament, by the time you use it, its under cover might of been reveled, or new sets are better.
It's just a matter of time until your super secret deck, is not secret, so it's your option, I personally think it's better to reveled the main Pokémon, because it's better if you SAY IT, than later some one else getting the credit :thumb:

 

[Prime]

but if the NE player picks the Florida player's decklist off the internet, theres the problem. Good players lose the biggest advantage they have.

But the good players in the NE didn't come up with the deck so they didn't have the decklist either. Or are you saying that they did have it because they have "connections" and they are losing their advantage because everyone has the list now? Oh boo, hoo. Get over it. Those people are good players because of their skill, not their list. If they can't beat people because others have the "good" list, then they don't deserve to be called a good player. I put the word "good" in parenthesis because how good a list is based on opinion.

For example, people adore the TRUK engine right now, but I have my doubts it's as good as people crack it up to be. I feel it's just a consistent engine (among many others) being used by great players, and it's doing well not just because it's the TRUK engine but primarily because it's being played by good players.

Although they may lose games because of misplays, what stops them from beating someone good when the deck sets up properly, when someone playing a bad list wouldn't set up properly in that situation? It's not about them being successful, its about them beating you in that ONE game where you have to face them.

D00d, anyone can beat anyone in a game if they get GOD luck and the other one gets...whatever the opposite of GOD luck is. It's going to happen...a lot. Good players are going to lose to lower skilled players when their deck doesn't setup and their opponent gets lucky enough to get their deck setup. You cry over the fact that someone could have the "good" list and get the deck set up and beat the better player, but the better player is better for a reason, and if they haven't prepared their deck for the chance of their opponent getting setup, then they haven't played enough against that deck.

It's not black and white. It's not you either have the "good" list or you have the "bad" list. There are endless shades of gray in this game. That's why people can still do well with Kricketune without running any Time-Space Distortion. That's why people did well with LBS without running Lati@s*. Because in this game, you can still do well with a deck even if you don't have the worshiped "good" list. IF there is a "good" list is another subject.

If you get drawn against this novice round 1, and lose because of the deck they got, it doesn't matter if they go 0-X the rest of the way, you just got screwed because they got a good list.

And that is when you say, "Oh well," and life continues on. Too many players are too concerned with now. They must win THIS tournament NOW. They can't accept a loss, and a few are very poor losers when they lose a game to someone they feel isn't as "good" as them. If you lose, try harder next time. Everyone wants to win a tournament, and only 1 person will win (in each age group), so those other people just have to be content with their "loss" and try again next time. But it's ideas like the above that warrant secretiveness.

I helped out a player thought of by many to be a joke here, who usually does bad at tournaments. With a variation of my Ramen TRUK deck (not even close to the real list as I'm not allowed to give that out, but alot better than almost all decks here), the guy went 4-0 in swiss, beating players he wouldn't normally beat, simply because the deck is good. Although he did lose t4 to a misplay, he knocked people out of T4 who would normally be in there on the deck's strength alone, although he is getting a little better at the game learning from me.

And? Pat yourself on the back since you helped spread the idea of a deck onto someone who wanted to learn about it? Why whine that he knocked out people that "deserved" to be in the top cut? The whole idea of someone "deserving" a trip to worlds or someone "deserving" to be in the top cut is ridiculous. They play the same game as everyone else. If they can't get the trip to worlds or make it into the top cut, then maybe it wasn't everyone else's fault.

How do you know the skill of the player you helped out? How do you know that the kid didn't play games at home a lot and get to know the deck very well? How do you know the kid wasn't a good player but held back by his lack of cards or poor ideas? I bet you didn't win your first tournament. I bet you didn't start doing well consistently until a group of people started helping you. Guess what? Everyone needs help, and don't complain when you help someone and they beat you in a game because that makes you look lame. You don't help someone because you know they won't amount to anything. You help someone to push them in the direction of becoming a great player. I'm sorry you didn't like that player doing well at the tournament, but it's only your fault.

Go ahead, help less people. You'll win more tournaments! :/

 

[PSYCO829]

i find myself agreeing with desert eagle
and why would we want these players to get the decklists anyway? isnt the point of the game, besides fun, to go out and experiment with new ideas and see what works and what doesnt?
if good players lists are always posted online, new players wont even need to try, they can just metagame those decks off the internet
why should we make things so easy for them, let them go to a few tournoments and totally bomb, the ones who have potential to become great players will learn from their mistakes, the ones who have no capability for greatness will not
and thats the way i believe it should remain

 

[SteveP]

i find myself agreeing with desert eagle
and why would we want these players to get the decklists anyway? isnt the point of the game, besides fun, to go out and experiment with new ideas and see what works and what doesnt?
if good players lists are always posted online, new players wont even need to try, they can just metagame those decks off the internet
why should we make things so easy for them, let them go to a few tournoments and totally bomb, the ones who have potential to become great players will learn from their mistakes, the ones who have no capability for greatness will not
and thats the way i believe it should remain

I'm curious. Are you using a blackberry, or using text messages to post (no punctuation, mis-spelling, sentence fragments, etc.)?

That's fine. I have no problem with players who like to keep things to themselves or their small groups.

However, don't force those same ideas to the point of requiring PTOs, judges, and other players to maintain that secrecy.

Too often, players falsely accedit their success to themselves, not realizing that they were once newbies.

I used to play Lord of the Rings TCG. LOTR players would always tell me they'd never play Pokemon because they didn't want to beat up on little kids - they craved serious competition. Obviously, they didn't understand Pokemon Age Categories. Nevertheless, in a sense, those comments are true. There are a few Pokemon players out there who actually get a thrill from beating up "little kids" or "newbies." They have not desire to help those "less fortunate" because it would diminish their "thrills."