A ruling question on prizes.

Discussion in 'Professor Forum' started by old man, Apr 19, 2004.

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  1. old man

    old man New Member

    Background. Going to the TX State Championship I took with me player B & player M followed in his vehicle. Both of these players are over 30.

    Sometimes in the stress of battles sometimes we forget to do some things.

    I had finished my match after about 5 minutes and was watching player B play against player M. I knew this was going to be a tough match as it was Blaziken vs. Swampert/EX, plus these are 2 friends of mine.

    While checking the status of the game I couldn't find player B's prize count. I asked one of the judges to inquire about the layout of prizes. Player B the realized he hadn't layed them out and was assigned a penalty of prize swap. This was in a single game tournament.
    I found out about the prize swap after the game was over and was stunned. It ended up costing player B the game because player M plays very slow. In fact he had a 7 minute turn at one point. Anyway when time was called player M won on prize count.

    I told player B I felt the prize swap penalty wasn't justified & also that he should've called a jusge over to observe player M taking so long in his turn. On the way home when we stopped for a bite to eat, player M admitted then that he knows he plays slowly & is sometimes lost in thinking of something else instead of his cards & he feels that his opponents probably think that he's really deciding what to do & deep in thought while actually his mind isn't on the game & is befuddled at his options.

    What would you rule on
    1) Forgetting to lay the prizes. Is the prize swap penalty appropraite?

    2) Player M always taking so long in his turn, especialy when he has very few options? And how would you rule?
     
  2. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    1) Since it is the responsibility of both players to ensure prizes are put out, i'd give each a Warning. If the person who forgot to place them did so again, Caution. Only if it was done multiple times would i even think about a Prize Swap penalty.

    2) I'd really have to see this in action. I would probably tell Player M to please go faster as time is ticking. Slow play is ok as long as it does not consume too much time (i know many players who just play slow). If i see Player M taking too much time, and there is nothing i can see that he can do, i might ask him aside what he is thinking about as i cannot see any play he can make except for either attacking or passing.
     
  3. RainbowRichards

    RainbowRichards Active Member

    At all the events I've worked together with Sensei` on, I've seen a surprising number of people forget to place prizes at the start. It's one of the things I try to catch during my first walkabout, and when I spot one I give them a warning. I trust that's the right way to go.

    I've seldon caught the same person doing it twice over.
     
  4. spookees

    spookees Active Member

    We do the same here for not laying out Prizes...
    First time=Warning ...After that= prize swap
     
  5. farbsman

    farbsman New Member

    At prerelease tournaments and smaller tournaments we have always given a warning then a prize swap. Most of these players end up doing it over and over again because a lot of them are newer players.

    However, at State Championships we have been doing prize swaps. At these events, if you forget to put down your prizes it can cause headaches later. If you give them a prize swap, very rarely do they forget to do it again. These events I know people that purposely don't put down prizes so if they get a bad hand it gives them a way to get cards moved in there deck. Most people should know how to set up at these larger tournaments. I know it is done the same way in Michigan and Ohio and highly expect it to be done the same way at Nationals and Worlds. The larger events are suppose to be the cream of the crop. Prizes are a part of your setup. We remind them at the beginning of the tournament to do it and tell them the penalty. Most remember to double check then.

    It has been my experience that this is how it is usually done at most qualifiers and larger tournaments.

    Maybe oneday we will get penalty guidlines to clear it all up.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2004
  6. old man

    old man New Member

    I did forget to mention that it was player B's first offense as well.
    Looks like I'm in agreement with those on here. It should have been a caution/warning to both players.
    Player M should be watched and urged to play in a timely manner if actually playing slowly with little or no options.

    Now, if this was under DCI guidelines, then here's what it says;

    123. Card Drawing—Improper Drawing at Start of Game
    Examples
    (A) A player in a Pokémon tournament draws eight cards in her initial hand (instead of seven).
    (D) A player in a Pokémon tournament starts his game and does not play any Prizes.

    Philosophy
    This is generally a minor infraction and deserves a fairly minor penalty

    Penalty
    The player must shuffle his or her hand into his or her deck and redraw the opening hand, drawing one less card than the number he or she should have drawn—not the number he or she actually drew. (This is similar to a forcing a mulligan in a Magic game.)

    So of course you can't start the game over & the re-drawing part doesn't apply here, so according to this the prize swap should not have happened, just a caution/warning & moved on with the game.
    But again, can we really base our rulings/penalties from DCI standards?
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2004
  7. meganium45

    meganium45 Active Member

    I do prefer to give a warning in this situation, and mark it on the player card.

    If the offense is repeated, then I do the prize penalty.

    The ONLY exception to this is if there was a card played that allowed the deck to be completely searched for a card (that could have been in the prizes) such as an Oracle or Aqua Ball.

    In this instance, the not placing of prizes was a distinct advantage, and a prize penalty should be awarded.

    Needless to say, in the elimination rounds, prize penalties should be awarded for failing to place prizes.

    I try to alleviate it by reminding players at the beginning of every round, usually it helps.

    M45
     
  8. farbsman

    farbsman New Member

    I agree with M45. Most of the time when you catch it the deck has been changed to an extent. Heck once they draw a card the game has been altered. That card they draw should have been a prize.

    If you go by the rules for qualifiers and larger tournaments a prize swap is in order. In the World Championships in Seattle I think it was a game loss. Can't remember though.

    How long do you guys actually want to TEACH the players how to play. If they can't remember to put down prizes at a championships they should have a penalty given. A warning isn't much of a penalty.
     
    Last edited: Apr 19, 2004
  9. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    So you reward the opponent for something they both should have caught? "Hey s/he forgot to put out prizes. I'll just wait a few minutes and then call a judge over."
     
  10. farbsman

    farbsman New Member

    Why should your opponent have to teach you how to play a game? I mean if you are at a championship you should know how to set up your game. Your opponent shouldn't have to worry about if you know how to set up the game. I mean most players are nervous enough as it is, why make them check to make sure there opponent knows what they are doing.

    Like I said before. In smaller events I would expect your opponent to rmind you, but why should your opponent suffer because of your mistake.

    For example, you forget to put out your prizes. You go and Draw a card. You get Blaziken EX. Oh wait you forgot to draw prizes. So you draw six for your prizes. Now this will completely change the match because that Blaze EX should have been a prize. Yet now it is in your hand. The next turn you can put blaze ex on your bench using rare candy and have at least 2 energy on it if you put one on Torchic your first turn.

    When you play in a championship you assume your opponent knows what they are doing. Why should your opponent lose because you don't know how to setup? Once the deck has changed (drawn a card, shuffled, ect) a prize card should be swapped. If nobody has drawn, then just put down the prizes and get a warning.
     
  11. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    So only experienced players attend championships? And nerves could be the reason why you forgot your prizes. Or maybe your opponent distracted you (but that's ok award the opponent). And why would you check to make sure your opponent know what thay are doing? :rolleyes: To ensure proper procedures are followed.

    Again proper set up is the responsibility of both players.

    Closest thing i can find:

     
  12. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    DMTM has commented on this situation as well.
    Your example of drawing a Blaziken ex as the first card is a false example of "irreversible". Drawing a card is never considered regarding whether something is irreversible or not.
    The cards are supposed to be random. You pull what you pull. It could have just as easily been a Full Heal or a Boost Energy which is useless to you on your first turn.
    A prize swap is too harsh for the first offense.
     
  13. DaytonGymLeader

    DaytonGymLeader New Member

    Now, I try not to do a prize swap unless I have to in this situation. Some players who use high levels of gamesmanship will tend to try to shark the free prize by not pointing out the fact that their opponent didn't lay out prizes until the first turn has started and deck manipulation has occoured.

    I tend to give a Warning to the player who forgot, and a Caution to the player who let them forget as both players are responsible for ensuring game state.
     
  14. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    I disagree with what some have stated that the penalty was too harsh. It all depends.

    1. How far had the game progressed?
    2. How many search cards were played?

    The answers to these questions dictate the severity of the penalty.

    In my experience judging, I've gone as far as giving a game-loss (or prize-swap) penalty because too many search cards were played. Some could argue that even ONE search card is too many.

    Sure, drawing cards is a random event. But if I've drawn a dozen or more cards, and shuffling the deck (like using Copycat or Prof Oak's Research) before noticing the prize-layout error, then Randomness goes down significantly. Once again, this could be a game-loss penalty.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2004
  15. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Using Copycat and Prof Oak are both irreversible acts and invoke the prize swap.
    I'd probably say the same thing about doing a search and using the searched-for card.
    Those are not random acts, like drawing a card.
     
  16. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Wow, I've not done that one. I'm not sure that's right. Giving someone else a penalty for something their opponent did? You'd DEFINATELY need to be certain that the player KNEW, and kept silent.
     
  17. DaytonGymLeader

    DaytonGymLeader New Member

    The Caution isn't as bad as the warning. It gets reported so that paterns of behavior can be tracked. That's what the reporting/tracking system was there for, to track and find "bad actors." It also gets someone's attention and they're less apt to make the same mistake/let the same thing happen again.

    Here's a similar situation - I let my opponent play two Supporters on the same turn but catch them midway thru resolving the second Supporter, in this case a Copycat. They've already shuffled their hand into their deck. Who should be penalized?

    I've had big discussions with MTM and DMTM about situations similar to these. Their take was the same as mine. Game state is the most important thing to be maintained. It is the responsbility of both players to ensure the correct game state.
     
  18. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    It's the accumulated effect of drawing numerous cards (even if shuffling didn't occur) that could warrant a game-loss penalty.

    Look at it this way.

    Initially (assuming no mulligan), you place your prizes from a random stack of 53 cards. Let's say you forget to lay out prizes. 5 turns later (assuming no search/draw/shuffle occured) you notice the error. You've now only got 48 cards left to place your prizes from. There's about a 10% chance that cards you've draw should've been in the prizes.

    So, is 10% still acceptable? It's a subjective call I guess.
     
  19. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    I think we agree. I'm just saying that you have to be carefully not to accuse someone of doing something they may not be guilty of. If I don't catch my opponent in time to prevent him from disrupting the game state, I shouldn't be penalized. A Caution is a Penalty, any way you look at it. So, be certain you're giving it justly. That's all I'm saying here.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2004
  20. mozartrules

    mozartrules New Member

    You are looking at this the wrong way when a deck is truly randomised.

    Imagine for a moment that the game rule was that prizes were drawn from the bottom of the deck. The chances of a given card being in the prizes is unchanged by this decision (you can view it as 6/60 or - if you have looked at your hand - 6/53 or 0).

    Taking cards from the top of the deck will thus change nothing, only searching or putting known cards back in your deck can change things. So simple drawing or playing TV Reporter changes nothing. Strike and Run attack, Oracle and POR changes things.

    The important factor is whether you have taken any action that has taken a known card from your deck (=searching) or put a known card back in your deck since these actions have decreased or increased odds of specific cards getting in your prizes and therefore given you an influence you were not entitled to.
     
    Last edited: Apr 23, 2004

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