Always Greener...yada, yada, yada

Discussion in 'Deck Help and Strategy' started by Prime, Jul 28, 2008.

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  1. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    yada, yada, yada...on the other side :tongue:

    4 Vespiqueen IFDS
    4 Combee IFDS
    2 Sceptile GE
    1 Grovyle GE
    2 Treecko GE
    2 Volbeat GE
    2 Illumise GE
    TOTAL: 17

    4 Call Energy
    10 Grass Energy
    TOTAL: 14

    4 Roseanne's Research
    4 Bebe's Search
    4 Team Galactic's Wager
    4 Buck's Training
    2 Luxury Ball
    3 Rare Candy
    4 Plus Power
    2 Warp Point
    2 Night Maintenance
    TOTAL: 29

    The entire deck is based around the new Vespiqueen from IFDS. Spoiler reads:

    So, you want to abuse Sceptile making each of Vespiqueen's attacks only cost 1 grass energy, and do good damage with it's second attack, and when low on prizes, do massive damage with either of it's attacks. If you go down on prizes, Vespiqueen becomes almost god-like, since with Plus Powers and Buck's Training, it can potentally heal 90 damage off of itself every turn. Illumise/Volbeat work towards Vespiqueen's first attack and can help recycle supporters for an unlimited amount of Team Galactic Wagers or Buck Trainings.

    I thought about Dawn Stadium, but the extra healing really isn't needed that much, and it can help my opponent.

    Get'R'Done!
     
  2. Blaziken 1111

    Blaziken 1111 Active Member

    why sceptile. Why not not cherim.

    - sceptile line
    - candy
    +4-4 or 3-3 cherim line

    Cherrim LV.30 – Grass – HP80
    Stage 1 – Evolves from Cherubi

    Poke-Body: Sunny Day
    Each of your Grass-type and Fire-type Pokemon’s attacks does an additional 10 damage to your opponent’s Active Pokemon.

    [.] Sweet and Salty Pollen: 20 damage. Remove 2 damage counters from 1 of your Pokemon.
    [G][C][C] Solar Beam: 50 damage.

    Weakness: Fire (+20)
    Resistance: Water (-20)
    Retreat: 1
     
  3. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Cherrim's body is nifty, but it is a pretty horrible attacker. Also, with Sceptile, I can afford to run less energy, and I only need 1 energy to pay for all of Vespiqueen's attacks. Of course, the Cherrim would be more of a rush-type deck. With Volbeat/Illumise, and 1 Vespiqueen on the bench, I can only gain +20 with 2 Cherrim out. It's either +20 with Cherrim or grass energy x2 with 1 Sceptile.

    It's not a bad idea, and I will think about it.

    Thanks
     
  4. butlerforhire

    butlerforhire New Member

    Since you have no Claydol and also no way of locking down opposing Claydols, I don't know how useful Wager is going to be here. With Claydol free to do what it does best, your opponent will recover every time if they lose, but if you lose you won't be able to. Being able to reuse it with Volbeat the next turn isn't really a big deal either, for the same reasons. Putting a Buck's back on top to use next turn after you lose the Wager in an effort to "recover" will really only net you one card (you would've drawn the first one if it had remained the top card instead of Buck's). A three card hand for you also really hurts because it's harder to do things like Bebe's Search if you even get lucky enough to grab it from the lost Wager, and it is also going to be harder to get your ideal bench set up. You might just consider Cynthia's Plan since it helps you a lot when you're behind in prizes, which of course you temporarily want to be to abuse Vespiquen's Body.

    I think you might consider dropping one of the IFDS bees and teching one of the DP Vespiquen in since I have a feeling a lot of people are going to be playing grass next format, with the influx of so many interesting new grass Pokemon and of course Shaymin Level X, which helps them all, and it can be a nice surprise against any of them, especially Vileplume/Bellosom (assuming people actually play it), Cherrim and anything else trying to abuse Vespiquen. Its attack goes with your full-bench theme anyway. Also, switching out a Combee or two for the DP version also would allow you the option of getting a Gust + sleep in if you were in a bind, could be good for minor disruption early game if you open with it, or if you just wanted to bring up a Claydol or something to take out the next turn. In fact that would make your Wagers more dangerous and useful.

    Speaking of Shaymin Level X, I think that would actually do better here than Sceptile, and adding it would allow you to free up some resources (4 to be exact). Vespiquen has cheap attacks already and really doesn't merit the minor boost in my opinion. Its retreat is also only one so Sceptile doesn't even benefit it there like it would something with 2. On the other hand, the whole +40 HP thing that Shaymin Level X grants would help you abuse the healing power of Vespiquen even more, and I think that is way more valuable than what little Sceptile will give you. Something with 140 HP and fighting resistance that is is able to heal itself as well as Vespiquen can will likely stay around a while. On the other hand, something with only 100 HP and fire weakness is asking to be OHKOed. Also, Shaymin Level X plus that tech DP Vespiquen, if you added it, would allow you the possibility of refreshing a severely damaged IFDS Vespiquen that wouldn't be able to preserve itself via Bee Drain.

    The Volbeat/Illumise is a nice touch by the way.
     
  5. mrdraz07

    mrdraz07 New Member

    DP Combee, plz. I heard dragging up Claydols and putting them to sleep is pretty good, especially if you have a Wager loop.
     
  6. Dark Umbreon

    Dark Umbreon New Member

    Hi Prime,

    Nice deck but not sure on Sceptile at all. Since Vespiquen needs little resources and wantrs to abuse Call Energy there is not much synergy. The Voltbeat combo is nice but more suited for Beedrill decks since Vespiquen needs to be fast. Consider that it takes three hits to knock someone out unless the opponent is ahead in prizes. Cherim thus sounds like an ideal bench filler for Vespiquen. Same holds for a tech Shaymin line. 60 damage and 6 damage counters removed for a single Grass energy is not bad at all. Even 50 damage and five removed is awesome when Vespiquen's hitpoints are elevated to HP 140 with a benched Shaymin L.X and three benched Cherim in addition to another Vespiquen. Vespiquen's own Poké-Body would just be an additional bonus on this scenario. You can devote some slots to more Balls such as Pokémon Radar or Great Ball to have the swarm out fast and going 2-2 on Combee helps the deck to recover lost Basics real fast. Sceptile has much more synergy with the Tangela line.
     
  7. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Good posts guys!

    Dark Umbreon: I can see the non-need for Sceptile. Again, Cherrim isn't a bad idea, but it will take up more space than Sceptile. If I run a 3-3 line, that's 1 more space than the Sceptile line (which nets me 2 cards leftover from removing the rare candies too).

    mrdraz07: Yeah, I can definitely see the DP Combee as being very decent. I like the idea of 2-2 of them, since the IFDS Combee's tool is very nifty for getting back any kind of basic.

    butlerforhire: In my testing, Illumise/Volbeat don't come anywhere near the acceleration that Claydol gives. Nothing in the format (DP-IFDS) does. But I was able to recycle the supporters every turn, which allowed for a constant bebe then wager every turn. My hand was refreshed every other turn with wager. Later on in the game, I played my 2nd wager from hand, and could have an infinite loop of wagers every turn. That refreshes my hand, and is pretty much like Claydol, only it uses up my supporter for the turn. I don't feel this is so bad, but I might need to run some extra non-supporter acceleration so that I can do stuff without supporters.

    I looked at the DP Vespiqueen, and wasn't impressed. With Shaymin lv.X, it would work better, but I am stil not impressed by the 3 energy attach. It would take 3 turns to power it up, and it would be doing 60 base for 3. if my opponent doesn't have any grass Pokemon, then that is lousy. If they are running grass Pokemon, it could mean 80-90 for 3, which isn't bad. I will definitely consider it, and try it out.

    I can see Shaymin lv.X helping here, with the healing and everything.

    4 Vespiqueen IFDS
    4 Combee IFDS
    2 Shaymin lv.X
    2 Shaymin
    3 Cherrim
    3 basic to Cherrim
    2 Volbeat GE
    2 Illumise GE
    TOTAL: 22

    4 Call Energy
    10 Grass Energy
    TOTAL: 14

    4 Roseanne's Research
    4 Bebe's Search
    3 Team Galactic's Wager
    3 Buck's Training
    2 Luxury Ball
    4 Plus Power
    2 Warp Point
    2 Night Maintenance
    TOTAL: 24

    Here is a test list. With the extra lines, it does take up more space. I had to drop 2 supporters (which I can recycle supporters anyways) to fit in the 3-3 Cherrim. I don't like Cherrim's attacks though. Also, with no Sceptile, 14 energy isn't as exciting as it once was, even with cheap attacks.
     
  8. Dark Umbreon

    Dark Umbreon New Member

    Hi Prime,

    Cherim also has a cheap attack which can deal 50 damage and heal itself for no energy at all in case all three of them are out. So the energy count should be fine. I only run one more Grass myself and it never was an issue thanks to Cherim boosts. Consider to cut one of the basic bugs since you do not want to start with them. Run them as techs maybe.

    With regard to trainers I would consider to loose one Luxury Ball and both Warp Points for four Pokemon Radar. With the Pokémon counts in this deck this card is more than awesome since it nets all the Pokémon within the top five cards of your deck and does not count as your supporter for this turn. Also see how long your Pokemon last to determine whether Cynthia's Plan or Wager is the play in this deck. Run a similar built with Scizor instead of Vespiquen and Cynthia's Plan worked better for me thus far. Hope this provides some initial assistance.
     
  9. butlerforhire

    butlerforhire New Member

    Actually the DP Vespiquen tech was mainly a suggestion I had in mind considering the Sceptile build, because then it's potentially 120 for 2 against something grass (although likely in the 80-90 range like you said). With Shaymin level X instead it is too slow.

    I was just thinking about all the stuff that OHKOs Vespiquen with ease such as Empoleon, MD Torterra (again, expected rise in grass) as well as the level X, Magmortar w/ only 4 energy instead of the 6 Shaymin level X would require, Blaziken, Bellosom, etc., not factoring stuff like opposing Buck's into the equation, and it made me consider Shaymin level X even more important here. Healing just isn't going to do anything obviously if you're getting OHKOed. 140 HP swarm + heal sounds good to me though.
     
  10. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    I wish I could have found a grass pokemon that could have spread damage, and then got KO'd and gone ~3 prizes down just spreading damage, and then just clean up with Vespiqueen, but I looked through most of the grass Pokemon from DP-IFDS and only found ~2 pokemon that could spread damage at all, and both were not decent.

    I don't know if I like a Vespiqueen deck that doesn't purposely go low on prizes. You have to run Plus Powers and Cherrim to do decent damage (with the healing attack). Think about all the resources I have to spend just setting up Cherrim, and they aren't even the main attackers of the deck. That's outragous in itself. 3 Cherrim and 1 Vespiqueen to do 50 damage with Vespiqueen's first attack? Not worth it imho. And if your never low on prizes, then Vespiqueen's body never kicks in.

    Oh well, it's an idea at least.
     
  11. butlerforhire

    butlerforhire New Member

    Was one of the Pokemon you were referring to Yanmega? If so, I think it could actually be decent considering three-four hits from Shockwave (pretty doable with dual Yanmega) would set up most things for a OHKO from Bee Powder. With all the PlusPowers and Buck's you wouldn't even have to have a completely full bench either. I also like Shockwave's switching effect and energyless requirement.
     
  12. Jayson

    Jayson Active Member

    Butterfree's healing attack starts at 30 damage, and can heal any of your pokemon in play, not just itself. And it has 120 HP, and its pre-evolutions have flip-for-ascension powers that ease the disadvantage of it being a stage 2. And it has free retreat. I think with the new Cherrim, Shaymin Lv.X and Buck's Training, Butterfree will become extremely swarmable. Check him out some time.
     
  13. Dark Umbreon

    Dark Umbreon New Member

    Hi Prime,

    That is true. Mine runs Scizor instead of Vespiquen for this reason. Another route wuld be to run Yanmega over Cherim. The first attack costs no energies and it can disable the opponent for some turns due to the built in switch and bench hit. Yanmega retreats for free and can serve as the pawn for Vespiquen once some damage has been spread to the bench with two of the. A tech Shaymin line would still be useful.
     
  14. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Dark Umbreon, is your deck like 4-4 Scizor, 4-4 Cherrim and nothing else? Scizor's first attack is broken with plus powers and cherrim on the field. It's second attack can do 70 with no powers on the field, and with 2 Cherrim, can do 90, with plus power, 100. For 2, that is great. Immunity every other turn is pretty awesome.
     
  15. Dark Umbreon

    Dark Umbreon New Member

    Hi Prime,

    Include a tech Shaymin line in the list and the Pokémon line would be finished. Deck seems to score a standard 70 damage turn two with some added value in the next view turns. Shaymin is a late game cleaner and health tech.
     
  16. Black Mamba

    Black Mamba New Member

    I posted almost this exact deck (vespi/shaymin/cherrim) a while ago. >.>

    It's good.
     
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