An Unfortunate Event at Indy CC

[TheDarkTwins]

Well, sad to say that if it had been a case of a hand shuffled into the deck in error, then it would have been a game loss situation.

Didnt, I say that? I am not sure but I think that was the point I was trying to get across all along. I said losing a card isnt a viable option as stated but POP. I dont understand why now you say this but before you were saying it wasnt? I am not upset, but confused on that point.

Drew

 

[totoro]

Look, the most important fact of all of this is that both players were apparently ok with the judge's decision at the time of the misplay. Is that true or not?? If the players were ok with this at the time, then everything posted/insinuated here is truly just sour grapes and really doesn't warrant any more comment (unless we'd like to discuss the proper course of action for similar situations in the future.) If the players/judges want a discussion about proper course of action, sure, I'll bite. I'd very very upset if one of my judges came close to a gl for this situation at one of my events. The misplay simply doesn't warrant it and I find nothing in the guidelines that support a gl for this. Sure, the infraction should be reported in case this player continues to misplay Rowan like this in the future, but it is highly likely that this was just a simple misplay.We will likely see an increased scrutiny by both players and judges with this widely-played card in the future. The affected player has been apologized to, and the "awareness factor" has been raised. Can we please move on?

 

[TheDarkTwins]

Look, the most important fact of all of this is that both players were apparently ok with the judge's decision at the time of the misplay. Is that true or not?? If the players were ok with this at the time, then everything posted/insinuated here is truly just sour grapes and really doesn't warrant any more comment (unless we'd like to discuss the proper course of action for similar situations in the future.) If the players/judges want a discussion about proper course of action, sure, I'll bite. I'd very very upset if one of my judges came close to a gl for this situation at one of my events. The misplay simply doesn't warrant it and I find nothing in the guidelines that support a gl for this. Sure, the infraction should be reported in case this player continues to misplay Rowan like this in the future, but it is highly likely that this was just a simple misplay.We will likely see an increased scrutiny by both players and judges with this widely-played card in the future. The affected player has been apologized to, and the "awareness factor" has been raised. Can we please move on?

I think the bigger problem is, if a HJ makes a ruling and you dont agree with the way it was ruled on and you know it is wrong, you cant really do anything about it. If you disagree with the ruling and try pleading to the judge you could get a game loss/DQ'd for rules lawyering. If you dont sign the slip at the end of the match you also can get DQ'd. I am not sure that there is much else you can do other than suck it up and deal with it and try talking to the Judge after the tournament and discuss your side and offer to bring proof to them if they disagree with you next time. I have had this happen a few times. The only thing I can do is ask them to look at the Compendium. If they see they are wrong they can fix it, but if it isnt in there, there isnt much they can do.

JMO,
Drew

 

[Prime]

Bad rulings are made all the time. Bad penalties are given all the time. We are human and we err. A player can't do anything about a bad ruling or a bad penalty, but show me a game where a player can do something about it.

The bottom line is that what the head judge says goes. Don't like it? Send PUI an email after the tournament.

And I know what you are going to say. Sending PUI an email after the tournament doesn't fix the problems the judge/head judge did at the tournament and the people affected by those rulings/penalties. But right now there isn't a way to make sure every ruling/penalty given is 100% correct. That would require the people given the rulings/penalties to be 100% ready and be able to prepare for 100% of the situations. But we can't expect them to be prepared for every situation and for them to know every penalty off the top of their head.

Bottom line is that they try their best. Sometimes they make the wrong call and people go home sad. But remember that the other 99% of the time, they provide us with the best experiences in our lives and we owe them more than can really be put into words.

 

[Absolution]

Requesting this locked, as boyfriend of one of the players involved. While I appreciate the original poster's reasons for the thread, it has degenerated into degrees of bashing on both sides. An email to POP about the incident will be sent to see how we can avoid mishaps like this in the future. Thanks for everyone's input.

-Absolution

 

[P_A]

Didnt, I say that? I am not sure but I think that was the point I was trying to get across all along. I said losing a card isnt a viable option as stated but POP. I dont understand why now you say this but before you were saying it wasnt? I am not upset, but confused on that point.

Drew

No Drew, what I got from what you were stating that it didn't matter if it was a card or a hand, it should have been considered a game loss. 'Pop was stating that there has been a ruling made for a whole hand shuffle - that is a definite game loss. From what I see in this and other threads, most judges agree that one card shuffled in error does not equal a whole hand - unless that is the whole hand! However, I do agree that regardless of the judges ruling, the result has to stand, since nothing can - or even should be changed after the fact, and the head judge should be given a bit of slack here. Personally I agree with Vince, and I'd be proud to have him on my team. And regardless of your feelings, Snowball21, the way you handled it, and what you mentioned was not in the best interests of everyone. Let's go through the proper channels here guys, and make the event experience as good as it can be, even in the face of trying circumstances. That way we can draw more people to the brand, not bickering about relatively minor experiences to the detriment of us all.

 

[DukeFireBird]

aade8, coming from another HJ who has made a mistake in the past, you did the right thing. You realized your "wrongdoing" and apologized for it. Does that in any way make you any less of a judge, NO.

If your ever in Vegas, you will have a spot in my tournaments open for ya.

To the players involved, If you both accepted the fix from the HJ, then "oh well". You didnt question the action of the fix, so in my book, at the time, the fix stands. I understand that 1 player got the short end of the stick. I challenge anyone to tell me a player who hasnt gotten the short end of a stick after a judge ruling.

So as far as i can see, aade8, you are alright and did a great job. (but you may want to go over your guidelines just to brush up on your knowledge!)

~Duke

 

[Articjedi]

Get the pitchforks, all bad judges must be punished!!!!!! Destroy them!!!!!

Look we all make mistakes. If we really were supposed to be perfect when judging, we wouldn't be human.

 

[NoPoke]

It is more than just a WHOLE HAND issue. You can have a whole hand of zero cards. In the guidelines shuffling zero cards into your deck without card effect is a Major error not a Severe error.

How messed up is the game state - Can the game be allowed to continue?
How much advantage might be gained - not from the individual situation but from any similar situation?
What did the player do right?

The game state is messed up but Pokemon is lousy with shuffle and draw so the game state will repair itself in a few turns.

The GL for shuffling you hand away without any cause is new under POP. Shuffling away without cause gets a Severe penalty because it could be abused with the cards that we have available to us. For most games having no hand is sufficient to cause that player to lose (Absol anyone??)

Rowan requires the player to shuffle their hand into the deck and draw 4 cards. Two actions that the player performed correctly. It also requires the player to retain one card, which did not happen.


The player misplayed Rowan. Which is not the same as shuffling the hand away without a card effect and without cause. The game state assuming the error had not occured would be almost the same. An error like that does not require a GL to keep players honest. But please don't do it again.

 

[Ardoptres]

I can't see how that mistake can earn a game loss.
A price loss max.
...Maybe just a warning, buuuuut, that would almost be too polite.

 

[TheDarkTwins]

It is more than just a WHOLE HAND issue. You can have a whole hand of zero cards. In the guidelines shuffling zero cards into your deck without card effect is a Major error not a Severe error.

How messed up is the game state - Can the game be allowed to continue?
How much advantage might be gained - not from the individual situation but from any similar situation?
What did the player do right?

The game state is messed up but Pokemon is lousy with shuffle and draw so the game state will repair itself in a few turns.

The GL for shuffling you hand away without any cause is new under POP. Shuffling away without cause gets a Severe penalty because it could be abused with the cards that we have available to us. For most games having no hand is sufficient to cause that player to lose (Absol anyone??)

Rowan requires the player to shuffle their hand into the deck and draw 4 cards. Two actions that the player performed correctly. It also requires the player to retain one card, which did not happen.


The player misplayed Rowan. Which is not the same as shuffling the hand away without a card effect and without cause. The game state assuming the error had not occured would be almost the same. An error like that does not require a GL to keep players honest. But please don't do it again.

See, I completely disagree, from what I have read and seen, you can say that player lost that card, it is a ruling that is supported by POP, it is an irreversible error. If you really want to be "sticky" and call it shuffling without a card effect which would be supposely severe, then what is shuffling a card back in? It is severe to then? I dont agree with it being severe, it should get a game loss for 2 facts. (you can choose). Getting 2 severe penalties on the same play = GL imo, and you can rule that they lose the card, it isnt the correct ruling. By telling them you lost the card changes the whole game. It isnt the correct ruling. It really is frustrating. I know that if my opponent did that and all they got was a warning/prize penatly, I would be fuming. I am just saying you cant lose a card for any reason like so and it not be a game loss.

JMO,
Drew

 

[Lawman]

As NoPoke stated, you can shuffle a deck with a hand of zero, if the card says "shuffle your hand into the deck, then draw X". So, even the shuffle was not incorrect here. Just the one extra card going in was the error (even if that 1 card was his whole hand Drew...the effect of the card said shuffle hand -1) IMO, the fix should have been warning, let the player draw the 4 cards that Rowan calls for and move on. The only way this might be a difference maker is if the player was about to deck out and needed that 1 card in deck to avoid a loss in a turn or 2. That changes the games state dramatically. Again a rare instance wherein the judge has to look at the entire picture.

Keith

PS...I agree w/ Absolution...it may be time to lock the thread.

 

[Prime]

Each side has said it's story. Props to the OP for standing up and admitting his error. The world could use more people like him.

Happy Holidays!

 

[PokePop]

Pop, I appreciate your input, but could you give me a suggestion as to how to proceed? Is there an apologetic avenue that I haven't explored? Being a Moderator, I respect your opinion and would like any suggestions you have on how to go forward (even if your answer is simply 'just go forward').

What Vince said.
Also, it wasn't a case of a hand being shuffled in with no reason.
It was one extra card shuffled in when a card effect called for a shuffle of cards going in.
That was not a game loss situation

 

[PokePop]

Didnt, I say that? I am not sure but I think that was the point I was trying to get across all along. I said losing a card isnt a viable option as stated but POP. I dont understand why now you say this but before you were saying it wasnt? I am not upset, but confused on that point.

Drew

No. You said this was a case of a hand being shuffled in to the deck in error.
I'm saying it's not. If it were, you'd be right.
This is one extra card being shuffled in when a shuffle was called for.
Not the same thing.

I always say what I mean. But one has to read all the words of what I say.

 

[PokePop]

I think the bigger problem is, if a HJ makes a ruling and you dont agree with the way it was ruled on and you know it is wrong, you cant really do anything about it.

Not true. You appeal it at the time.

If you disagree with the ruling and try pleading to the judge you could get a game loss/DQ'd for rules lawyering.

Not if they are a HJ worthy of the title. An appeal is allowed. Once it has been heard and the judge states "this is my final decision", arguing past that point could lead to penalties.

Drew, you are neglecting that both players OK'd the ruling at that time. There was no question about it until afterwards. And that was too late. Every single PTO and Head Judge on here will tell you that after the match is too late for this kind of thing.

[edit] Sorry, I was away today, so I get to catch up.