Are decks becoming too "ex-dependent"?

Discussion in 'TCG News & Gossip Discussion' started by Turbo Blastoise, Feb 18, 2004.

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  1. Turbo Blastoise

    Turbo Blastoise New Member

    Do you think that with all the good decks out there that just too many of them revolve around pokemon ex? It is sort of difficult these days to run a non-ex deck and reasonably expect to win a tournament. Or do you think that's a problem with the game and that perhaps the game would be better off without them and that most decks should return back to the way they were Pre- R/S?
     
  2. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    With decks doing 120 damage easily, yes.
     
  3. plaidlesspez

    plaidlesspez New Member

    No way, I think ex's are balanced enough. You do get two prizes for KOing one, and the ex might KO two of you pokemon before it's KO'd, so I say it's even. Look at Blaziken/Ninetales, it's probably the best deck right now and it doesn't use any ex's. My Slaking/Blaziken deck is pretty good and I don't use ex's. VBell/Shedinja doesn't use ex's. Flygon and Salamence decks don't either. I'm sure there are other decent rogue decks too. There are plenty of alternatives instead of decks with ex's, and most of them compete with decks that use ex's rather well. Wobbuffet is a guard against them too. There is no reason they should switch back to a non-ex modified.
     
  4. Gym Leader Blaine

    Gym Leader Blaine <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/member.php?u=15

    I think it is true that most decks have EX Pokemon in them, but as was pointed out they are balanced in the way you get two prize for taking one out and some have two weeknesses. There have always been Pokemon cards in the past the players use in there decks when new types and sets come out. It was this with with the neo sets with Dark and Steal, and for the current sets it is the EX Pokemon. This is how it is. Will have another group of Pokemon in future sets that players will always use, just how it is
     
  5. Dro~

    Dro~ New Member

    In future sets, there'll be cards that counter those pokemon-ex, like ninetales, and a stadium that damages pokemon-ex. There are cards that'll also encourage players to use non-ex, like double rainbow energy, mr briney's compassion, etc.
     
  6. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Show me a gym that damages EX and I will agree with you. But just because a card is good against EX's, doesn't mean EX's will be countered. I mean look at shedninja and wobbuffet. But anyways, lets look at the most domninating decks, BAR and Gardevior/EX. Don't think they are the most dominating? Look at the CC results. Most decks were either BAR, Gardevior, or a suprprise deck. BAR could not run as well as it does without rayquaza EX. Gardevior/EX could not run as well as it does without Gardevior EX. Any other decks out there will lose to BAR/Gardevior EX, because both of these decks can hand out 100-120 damage easily almost every turn. That knocks out anything else that isn't EX.
     
  7. nikePK

    nikePK New Member

    yeah, they're not even overly powerful right now either

    I mean, look at the decks. They eaither branch the line, or depend on some other pokemon that's non-ex to get them setup. No one can run a pure ex deck as long as Wobbu is here. Same for shedinja too. Its ok to run Rayquazza or a Gardy ex, but you can't run them by themselves. I think the format is balanced, and I don't think we need to cry about ex's being to strong when this format gives us the most decks that are viable on the tourney scene than ever before.

    eh, whatever. I think its fine now. Like someone said above, its just like dark/steel when that came out. We'll see how this pans out. I'm sure there will be ex's in use, but as long as there are good non-ex's like Flygon, Magneton, Blaziken, Salamence, Vbell, and others, the game won't simply go into an ex-showdown.
     
  8. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    yes, EX pokemon are very powerful right now. that's the meta-game currently. hopefully, things will change when more splashable cards are produced to counter them (wobuffet is pretty splashable while shedinja is not). can you image if wobuffet had the same power as shedinja? I truly expect such a splashable counter to EX pokemon to be released someday.
     
  9. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    I wish for that day SteveP. But it seems with every new japanese set, we see bigger EX's. Like the charizard EX that has 160HP that can do 200 damage. I really don't think though that TPC would kill off their big new thing anytime in the future though.

    I have to disagree with nikePK though. I don't think the strength of EX's even compare to when dark and steel came out. Back then, they were alright, sneasel owned all, but the big decks that were big in that day could still own sneasel. And after a few sets, more and more cards came out to own sneasel. Steel pokemon really never got the 15 minutes of fame, other than when scizor was big. But even then, it wasn't too big. Now-a-days, EX's are doing 200 damage and the only way to stay alive against one is to tech your deck only against that one card(leaving you totally open against every other type of deck), or combat EX's with EX's. Thus it's like when guns were introduced to man. People could still kill a stupid holder of a gun with a bow and arrow, but most of the time, the gun would prevail. People than had to resort to using guns that were bigger to beating the smaller guns in which they made bigger guns and so on and so on. That is how I view the EX's. THey have bigger damage and bigger health, and the only way to beat them is to have more health and to be able to do more damage than the EX's. And when that happens, those pokemon will become the dominant thing and people will have to use pokemon that can do more damage and have more health them those pokemon and so on and so on.
     
  10. Pablo

    Pablo New Member

    Plaidlesspez is right, Niniken is prolly the best non-ex deck and MAY be the best deck overall, and seeing as how it doesnt depend on ex's it has an advantage over EVERY deck that runs ex's, Niniken pwns BAR because of the 2 prize trade off, it pwns Gardy cause it can OHKO any pokemon there easily, and it is hard for Gardy to make a comeback after 1 grady ex is down, Aggron ex is weak to tales and wailord isnt enough to counter it, and finally Amphy ex is easily OHKO'd. The only decks that consistantly beat Tales are Muk ex and Slaking, but they prolly lose to everything else, so IMO Niniken is the top deck (tied with BAR) and it doesn't rely on ex's to win.

    -MuD
     
  11. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Mudkip, I must disagree with your statement. The one reason I disagree is because rayquaza 0wn5 ninetails 99.9%. Lets compare the two pokemon:

    Ninetails 80HP
    3 - Discard all fire energy attached to ninetails and this attack does 20 for each one. 30

    Rayquaza EX 100HP
    RE - Discard either all R or all E energy attached to rayquaza, this attack does 40 for each one.

    Okay now lets compare.
    It takes 2 more energy from ninetails to OHKO a gardevior EX, and it takes one more energy from ninetails to OHKO a blaziken. Those are the two most used decks at the CC's. So from the start, you can see that it is easier to knock out each pokemon with rayquaza than with ninetails. Then you also see that rayquaza is a basic, which means it can be gotten out first turn with the help of dunsparce or fan club instead of having to wait till second turn to get out ninetails. Then you also see that rayquaza has more HP than ninetails. Oh look what water does to ninetails. A water pokemon that can do 40 damage(lol so easy) can OHKO a ninetails. Wow, rayquaza is resistant to water and fighting! Now what could OHKO a rayquaza EX? A colorless pokemon that has to do 50 damage! So you see, it takes more to knock out a rayquaza. The only downside I see in this mess is that you need a lightning energy to attack and your opponent gets two prizes for ko'in rayquaza. Really, is it worth using rayquaza over ninetails? IMO heck yea!

    In conclusion, Ninetails takes longer to get out, has very low HP, must discard more to OHKO pokemon, and has a very bad weakness. It's only advantage over rayquaza is that it only costs one prize when killed which is very small when people are winning with rayquaza as the only attacker.

    Another point I would like to make is that if niniken doesn't use ampharos than it takes an extra turn to power ninetails back up because it must be on the bench when blaziken does it's power. And thus you must have a good defense because if they warp point your ninetails out and OHKO it, which is easy, you must either give up another prize to power up blaziken or sacrifce blaziken. with BAR, you can send up any pokemon and if you have blaziken and ampharos out, you can always power the pokemon up with a good amount of energy.
     
  12. Gym Leader Blaine

    Gym Leader Blaine <a href="http://pokegym.net/forums/member.php?u=15

    No they wont kill of their big new thing right now, but there will be a bigger new thing to replace it down the road. There always is.
     
  13. Pidgeotto Trainer

    Pidgeotto Trainer New Member

    Well almost every big deck right now has its main attacker an ex. Also every big deck right now is an ex backed up by some non-ex's as a supporting cast. Ray ex w/Blaziken/Delcatty, Gard ex w/Gard, Amphy ex w/Amphy, Aggron ex w/Wailord/Furret, Kingdra ex/Kingdra. Blaziken/Quaza is better than Niniken for the reasons Prime said. Rayquaza has a better matchup against all of the top decks needing less nrg to ko. Btw, Wailords w/Furret in Aggron ex decks crush Niniken IMO. Crushes Blaz/Quaza too if I'm holding 2 Shards.
     
  14. mozartrules

    mozartrules New Member

    Rayquaza EX isn't really too much of a problem right now, but it will be when we lose Crystal Shard and Ditto. But we will at that time have Ninetails that resists EX Pokemon as well as a Stadium that (Nick15's spolier isn't quite clear) seems to add a damage counter between rounds to Pokemon with 100HP or are Pokemon EX.

    Gardevior in itself is OK, the problem is Boost energy (which we will lose eventually) and the fact that the Gardevoir player gets Wynaut and Wobbuffet with no sideffects (having to play psychic energy). The ability to start with Wynaut, get 3 Pokemon in the first 2 rounds and then get rid of the damage with Wobbuffet is a reason the deck is so fast. Imagine the difference if Wynaut's attack was for a colorless so everybody could play it (I think it is much better than Dunsparce).

    So my conclusion is that the 3 big EX Pokemon used now are used mostly because they combine so well with other cards (Rayquaza EX/Blaziken, Gardevoir EX/Gardevoir/Wynaut) or because the gave Ampharos EX a resistance instead of a second weakness.

    I am not even too worried about cards like Charizard EX. That 200 attack will be his last because all the energy gets discarded and the 50 attack is OK for a Stage-2 EX. They even seem to have added a side effect to Blastoise EX which makes it a lot less attractive.

    I am worried about Blaziken EX though if the translation seen is correct!

    All decks are easily beatable, but it is of course difficult to make a deck that consistently beat all the good decks. Any Blaziken variant will lose miserable to any Water deck that has Ditto in it (but that can't beat Gardevoir), Gardevoir EX is tougher to handle without Gengar but Darkness/Psy or Darkness/Grass combos will do the trick (Ditto can be cute too, particularly with Expedition Ampharos). Ampharos will probably die to any decent fighting deck, but those struggle with the other two top decks.

    I also wouldn't put too much emphasis on the dominance of Blaziken and Gardevoir at the City Championships. Yes, they are probably the best decks at the moment (like Feraligatr was) and that means that most of the good players will play them.
     
  15. nikePK

    nikePK New Member

    mudkip's point was that Blaziken/Niney beats BAR. And since Bar is apparently the best deck out there, Niniken can beat it and is therefore better. Maybe you should get some experience playing w/ or against it, Prime, because I can tell you that it doesn't just forfeit to water. It ohko's water. How many PLAIN water decks are running around that are good nowadays? NONE. Aggron loses to it, because its too hard to swarm with wailords. Its much easier with Ninetails, which powers up, dishes out 120 without any problems. You discard more, yes, but its easy to beef it up, all it takes is 2 turns rather than 1 with rayquazza. Also, HPS gives niney a free retreat, so its easy to make room for the stuff niney needs to work.

    Also, I guess you just disregarded my entire post. Stuff runs ex's, sure. Without other pokemon though, they don't work at all. Maybe this thread should be called "are ex's becoming to dependant as ATTACKERS," if it was, you guys would have a solid argument, as most decks DO run ex's as their attackers.

    However, there will be stuff in the next few sets that keep the regulars coming. We'll see what happens. I'm running Salamence right now, it does nice. It runs sneasel ex and Latias ex, but they are strictly backup as no other basics are that good. It works with the deck nicely. Speed in my evo, power in my basics. They don't win me the game though. Just like Rayquazza doesn't win games, Blaziken does. Delcatty does. etc.

    Anyway, I think the format is fine for now. ex's attack, sure. There are decks that can run off little to no ex pokemon though, and they still do good.
     
  16. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    Venusaur, free two prizes, but that is beside the point. I think nikePK said it best, it takes two turns to power it up instead of one. So against a deck that gets powered up every turn, it has a small chance to beat it. I really don't see how niniken is better than BAR. I mean how many niniken decks did you see in the CC's? I saw one. There were alot more BAR decks there, or atleast blaziken mixed with rayquaza.

    One thing I found interesting was that someone said that while your powering up ninetails, you sacrifce a blaziken. I find it funny that after you have done this 2 times, your deck is about dead already. I mean, sacrifice a blaziken!? The card that makes your deck work? That is a pretty stupid idea. But I think what they meant to say is sacrifice something stupid, but even at that, your giving them an extra prize while powering up the ninetails.
     
  17. SteveP

    SteveP Active Member

    Actually, I think GardyEX setup decks and BAR combo decks are great but are vulnerable to disruption and speed. Last Saturday I used BAR and had a pretty tough time against a MarcargoEX speed deck and Kid/Buzz speed deck. I barely won, but if those decks had included disruption like Desert Shaman or Absol, I'm sure I probably would've lost. Same goes for GardyEX. AmphyEX/Kid/Buzz speed with disruption should own GardyEX as well as BAR.

    EX Pokemon are here to stay, but in what I consider the top 3 decks (BAR, GardyEX, AmphyEX), those decks CAN'T work without non-EX support (Blaze/Amphy/Kitty, Wynaut/Wobuffet, Kid/Buzz respectively).
     
  18. nikePK

    nikePK New Member

    Prime, there are more ninetails in a deck than there are rayquazzas.

    Ninetails wins against Bar or B/R.

    what jermy meant is that you do attack with blaze. This forces a rayquazza up. you already HAVE ninetails pumped =| U start beating on something, lets say you kill a dunsparce. They bring up ray. KO. You ko ray. You are UP TWO PRIZES.

    Just play against mudkip or something, he'll show you. Niniken wins cuz Niney is not an ex pokemon basically.
     
  19. Prime

    Prime Content Developer<br>Blog Admin<br>Contest Host

    No thanks really. In most BAR decks, there are 3 rayquaza. So unless you play 4 ninetails, theres not much chance of having the upperhand pokemon wise. And I have realized that there is no reason to go into the "I attack with this and you OHKO that and then I do this and you do that," because that in no way shows what will really happen in a match.
     
  20. mozartrules

    mozartrules New Member

    I played that combination at the City Championship and did really miserably, but that was just because the rest of the deck didn't work well. Desert Shaman is a wonderful card, particularly in the early game where people use Oracle or Wynaut. It was interesting to see how a guy playing Blaziken had to not use Delcatty's power to prevent his hand from being too inviting a target for Absol.

    The winner in Cedar Grove (NJ) last week went 6-0 with a Gardevoir EX deck that included 4 Shamans and he had great success disrupting the opponents' setup. The Blaziken decks in particular are sensitive to disruption because they need a number of different things to get going.
     
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