Calling all Judges and Professors: Pokemon Reversal??

Discussion in 'Cards: Strategy and Rulings Discussion' started by Prof. Douglas Zuver, Aug 10, 2003.

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  1. Prof. Douglas Zuver

    Prof. Douglas Zuver New Member

    Hi everybody,

    The question is simple, and maybe if I get lucky mtjimmer will happen
    along and see this, anyway I would be glad to hear comments
    from my Professor Friends about this point.

    How would you as a Judge handle this situation?

    The card text for Pokemon Reversal in Expedition reads:

    Choose 1 of your opponent's Benched Pokemon.
    Flip a coin. If heads, switch that Pokemon with
    the Defending Pokemon.

    The card text for Pokemon Reversal in R&S reads:

    Flip a coin. If heads, your opponent switches 1 of
    his or her Active Pokemon with 1 of his or her
    Benched Pokemon.

    Reading this carefully, you will see the Epedition version is
    Gust with a coin flip to it.

    BUT, the R&S version is half of Warp Point with flip.
    Making it useless in any Eon type Format, since a real
    Expedition Warp Point would be so much better.

    I did ask MT Jimmer about this at Origins, and I claimed
    it was a misprint. I was very impressed by the fact that
    not only had MT Jimmer already found the discrepancy,
    he had even talked to Japan about it. Remember, Origins
    was very early Pokemon USA Operations.

    He told me that Japan told him, it was not a misprint,
    that is the way they intended the card to be...

    So, what do we do now?
    And did Japan change their minds later?
    Has anyone else heard anything definate on the subject?

    Would proper procedure be to use the new printing if it is not
    a misprint (such as Exp. Darknes Energy) when playing
    the older cards?
  2. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    It depends on what rules system you are using. If you are using the WotC rules, then you play it per the older card.
    If you are playing by R&S rules, then you play it by the wording of the new card.

    Unless we are specifically told to "play as printed" (like Hitmonchan), the default is to go by the newest printing of the card.
  3. Baboon

    Baboon New Member

    Hehe, our first somewhat major discrepancy. Looks as if we'll have the next card as useful as Balloon Berry if this will be played as the EX version. And I also noticed this the other day and was going to ask about it too. :p Doesn't quite make sense to use this, as it would HELP your opponent by letting them change their Active with whatever they want... @[email protected]
  4. Pidgeotto Trainer

    Pidgeotto Trainer New Member

    They've taken away the last of the Gusts. Now everyone must play Swellow. :lol:
  5. GymLeaderPhil

    GymLeaderPhil New Member

    The Ruby and Sapphire Pokemon Reversal Card was indeed the correct card wording for both versions in Japanese. Did something get translated differently or did Japan/WotC want to eratta the Expedition version? I dunno. But I think that in order to NOT confuse players, cards should be played as printed. This was why ER2 and SER2 was printed with the number two for everyone outside of Japan. While players in Japan might not have older cards, have them but not use them, or are truly experts on using the correct wordings, most players here in North America and Europe just arent up the IQ of our friends to the East and enjoy reusing older cards. :D

    And they all seem to be paired up against myself :X
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2003
  6. Dro~

    Dro~ New Member

    You mean in Japan ER and SER have to be played as ER2 and SER2?
  7. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    Doug, iffn' it were me judging, I'd play each card as worded. Trainers don't have a level like pokemon do to distinguish them within set and set-to-set, but there are a bunch of viable same-name pokemon with multiple forms (for example, there's the two-of-each stage two in expedition - charizard, venusaur, typhlosion, blastoise, etc., or, if you prefer a disparate set example, aquapolis and skyridge steelix). Either is acceptable, and you play the card as written. This is the first example of a trainer card that I can recall which alters the wording, and therefore playability, from set to set, but I can't think of a reason that you'd errata one card over the other. To me, it'd be like saying, "Play aquapolis steelix as if it were skyridge steelix." Yeah, that makes the R/S pokemon reversal a little obsolete (how often do you hear of the older version making the newer obsolete?). To sum up, you still can't have more than four in the deck, and you play them as written. Much as you might hear someone at a tournament exclaim, "What?!? You play THAT feraligatr? Are you nuts?", one might also hear, "What?!? Why in the name of Sweet-Forgiving-Mary-That-Weaned-The-Baby-Jesus-In-A-Lowly-Manger would you play THAT pokemon reversal?"

    That's just my two cents.

    :clap: out

  8. yoshi1001

    yoshi1001 Active Member

    Well, that's not how it works. The newer Pokemon Reversal replaces the old Pokemon Reversal. Thus in R/S events you play both as the newer version. Pokemon do not replace each other (except in some cases of minor differences), so you play both as written.
  9. Sensei

    Sensei Team Compendium Emeritus Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Dendro,Yoshi is correct.If you are in a tournament and the official ruling is that you play those cards as the latest version says,then unless a new "official" ruling comes down to change that,you play it as ruled.We can`t make up the rules and change them where we want.

  10. davechri

    davechri New Member

    Ok, here's what I want.

    I want Dendrobatia to be right. I don't care about reality or logic or any of that other hooey.

    Bah! Stupid Pokemon Reversal 2.

    I feel like the new format (and some of the new cards are a bit limiting. Far less free retreaters. Draw power has been hampered. The number of trainers one can play in a turn are somewhat reduce (due to supporters).

    In a lot of ways this game is beginning to feel like the GBA game. Just come out with a lot of hard-hitting Pokemon and slug it out.

    The metagame is somewhat crippled.

    Guess I've got to find a new metagame. :confused:

    (considering how long we've been playing with the standards of this game (Elm, Focus, Gold Berry, etc.), it's quite a format change. When did Neo Genesis come out December 16, 2000. That's over 2 1/2 years! One can build up quite a Cleffa dependency in that period of time.)
  11. BJJ763

    BJJ763 Trading Mod Supervisor Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    Unfortunately the big hole in Dendrobatia's reasoning is that while there have been multiple Steelix cards released, they have different levels and are therefor different cards. Trainers with the same name, just like rereleased Pokémon cards (unless errattaed), are played with the new wording.
  12. SlimeyGrimey

    SlimeyGrimey New Member

    Aquapolis and Skyridge Steelix are NOT different levels, the e-cards don't even HAVE levels! I don't know or care whether or not the cards are play as written or not, as long as we have a LOGICAL ruling worked out.
  13. yoshi1001

    yoshi1001 Active Member

    "Aquapolis and Skyridge Steelix are NOT different levels, the e-cards don't even HAVE levels!"

    They do if you scan them in the e-reader.
  14. Baboon

    Baboon New Member

    Yeah, and not everyone has GBAs and e-Readers. Those stats should be ON the cards.

    And although I don't like it, yes, you do play as the most recent legal version. =\ This is one time that it gets worse as you move ahead in time. Usually, they errata things to make them better, like Darkness/Metal were in Expedition/Aquapolis.
  15. GodTrainer

    GodTrainer Member

    well accualy even though those e-card pokemon dont have the lv's like the older cards ( which i REALY!! liked and wish they kept) they still have diffrent i.d. #'s and there for are diffrent cards. But..... (theres always a but) on the new nintendo uncommons and commons have 2-3 (respectively) diffrent #-letter codes, so LOL LOL i know this is not how it realy is, but if you do transitive property, lv #'s = id #'s so if there are 3 diffent id #'s then they are suposed to be 3 diffrent levels and arnt the diffrent leveled pokemon suposed to have diffrent attacks? lol lol then in that case all those pokemon learned the attack at diffrent levels (lol stubern pokemon) anyway that realy doesnt matter, it is just the new way to identify the new pokemon (epedition-skyridge) im reffering to

    just my 2cents
  16. yoshi1001

    yoshi1001 Active Member

    "Yeah, and not everyone has GBAs and e-Readers. Those stats should be ON the cards."

    True, but I was pointing out that the information was availible. Not readily in all cases, but it is availible.
  17. Dendrobatida

    Dendrobatida New Member

    Yow! Snippy people everywhere! I was only suggesting how I'd treat it if I were in charge of the rules (which I'm not, nor ever claimed I was), and I think I presented a decent argument to back up my logic. I thought the point of the thread was to do exactly off the attack dogs, folks. I was just arguing for a ruling that seemed more constistent to me. Its a community, and this is a discussion, so I thought I'd be entitled to an opinion, which everyone is free to disagree with: attack it all you want. Just don't attack me for having it. Heck, I even put pithy little jokes into my post, and ended with the hopping clappy smiley face! That's gotta be worth something...I certainly don't condone "mak[ing] up the rules and chang[ing] them where we want", so if anyone got that impression of me based upon 'sensei's jab, allow me to diffuse it by saying they taught that rule in kindergarten, and as I recall, I passed with flying colors. Mrs. Hamilton probably still has my report card. Also, I reiterate: hopping clappy smiley face! How can you get angry and huffy about that?!?

    :clap: :clap: :clap:

  18. dkates

    dkates New Member

    I do think rewording Pokemon Reversal was a bad idea -- the Gust of Wind effect is an important part of many deck strategies -- but I can't think of much to do about it. Only thing I can think of is to contact Nintendo and encourage them to reprint Pokemon Reversal in their next set with the old wording.
  19. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    The thing that gets me about it is that it also has that flip.
    I mean, if you're going to give your opponent a free Switch, dpn't add a flip in there.
    If I'm going to have to flip to see if the thing even works, at least let me choose what Pokemon is brought up.
    The combination of flipping and not choosing makes it completely unplayable.
  20. Sensei

    Sensei Team Compendium Emeritus Staff Member Trader Feedback Mod

    ... so if anyone got that impression of me based upon 'sensei's jab

    Heh,you are doing what we all did:misread what you meant.The way you said it(you said if it was you judging) it sounded like you wanted to make up the rules as you went.What I intended was to just correct something I saw that was wrong.No "jab" on my part.

    No big deal.We all are expressing our opinions and I`m sure thats what the others are doing as well,not being snippy.Just sometimes hard to tell the difference in a typed post.Take it all in stride my friend. :cool:


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