It opened my eyes...

Discussion in 'Conventions' started by Kiss_n_Fire, Jul 6, 2008.

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  1. Kiss_n_Fire

    Kiss_n_Fire New Member

    The metagame is changing my childrens perspective on Pokemon playing.
    It is a very sad day indeed when my children come up to me and say "Mom, I need to play Gardevoir/Gallade or Magmortar". It is disenchanting that my children cannot be creative because the other childrens parents/older siblings/etc. are building them decks simply to crush others. Why doesn't Pokemon make a rule that a deck used in a tournament by a player cannot be used in their next tournament? Yes, it would be a daunting task to go through each and every deck list and reference it with previous...but, this could be dealt with easily as well. A site made where you MUST pre-register your decklist (say a week in advance) before a tournament. First of all it would stop all the line hustle and bustle and secondly...this rule would be made possible. Not that I think it would EVER happen, but it should. I know everyone has a competitive nature and everyone of course wants to win but when a 9 year old comes to me and tells me that he is tired of loosing to "stupid gardy/gallade"....there is a problem. Shouldn't children (most certainly) in Juniors division be using their imagination and having fun and enjoying themselves? For heavens sake...if you are going to a Pokemon event with crushing another deck in mind merely for a win with have issues.

    I see several issues with the formats in tournament play.
    Age divisions:
    The junior division, senior division, and masters...I think we need another division or two here. I have a child in both junior and senior divisions. My senior cannot win due to the age bracket. There are "teens" in his group that are almost to the masters division with nothing but winning in mind and with better reading skills, better concentration, and longer play time. In my opinion, divisions should look and run as such...
    -Pre Juniors:6-11
    You are probably asking your self "what in the world is she talking about"? Well, my reasonings are as follows. I think Pre Juniors should have tournaments of their own where creativity plays a major role. No rares tourney (for ex.) is a great way to show off your creativity. A tourney where they cannot use any poke abilities is another great way for the children to still be creative and learn while not getting CRUSHED. Winning a tourney in this age bracket should yeild prizes such as a DS/cards/trophy. I will go into Juniors now. At the age bracket I have mentioned, children are starting to get more competetive and their skill levels are going to be about the same with the same amount of drive. I think winning a tourney at this age should qualify for a scholarship/cards/trophy. Moving onto Masters. This age bracket is generally for the Professors and those still into Pokemon and the skill level and age bracket aren't too far askew. Winning here should still give the person an opportunity to receive a scholarship/cards/trophy. Lastly, Seniors...ahh yes...myself and husband included. Most people 26 and over are playing because their children do. It's something to do while the children are playing their tournaments. To be honest...when I am playing in a tournament, winning is not really on my mind. I could care less. I am playing because my children love Pokemon and because it is a family event for us. Why should someone in this age bracket be given a scholarship? No...take it away from this age group and give more to the younger kids. Give cards/trophy to winners in this division. Pokemon needs to get back to the CHILDREN!!!!

    Nationals this year was horrific. Just because X amount of people show up...should not mean that children should play Pokemon for 10 hours. That is ridiculous. Both of my kids were tired, un-focused, and ended up dropping because they just couldn't do it anymore. I even heard a lady have the nerve to tell her 7/8yr old "NO, you are going to keep playing..I don't care how tired you are!! You have won 4 and lost 1 round. You WILL NOT drop out and if you don't stop whining I will whip your butt." WHAT??? This is sickening and dishearting to me. Why would you FORCE your child to play?? But it is a bit of Pokemon's fault as well. Running a tournament for 10 hours on children that age just is not appropriate. Sure, Masters can handle that...but kids cannot.

    Lack of Tournaments:
    In my opinon there should be more tournaments so that our children can play more events and get more experience. My kids battle at least a couple times a day and we attend league night once a week but a tournament is a much different setting. We have 7 (if I am correct) tournaments a year. Worlds, Nationals, Regionals, States, Cities, BR Autumn, BR Spring. That's it. I think having more tournaments would help out our kids.

    I am sorry if you do not agree with me on this, but I am seeing things in a different light from my childrens eyes. They should not come to me crying due to the reasons above. Thank you for reading my rant and any comments are welcome. Have a wonderful day!!:tongue:
  2. Rayquaza14

    Rayquaza14 New Member

    Very good "article"...
    I absolutely agree with you, except for the decks. It's not that hard when people play the same deck (fined version) at every tournament. It's a problem that older players give their decks / deck ideas to the younger ones and drill them to learn how to play this deck. However I don't see how we could stop THAT.
    10 hours IS too much for a junior!
    But how could you solve this? 2-day tournaments everytime? Then you'd have to look for a Motel/Hotel/anything for the night and that would cost $$ ( means that many parents/players would be against such a 2-day tournament only because of the juniors)

    Best regards and I hope something will change^^
  3. TheDarkTwins

    TheDarkTwins Active Member

    I personally don't like it. First off, you need to add a 4th age group, which would end up meaning POP having to spend more money for prizes. Second, I have been in Masters since the game started. I have never played in an event when I wasn't 15+. I was for a brief time in the 11-14, however since there really wasn't any organized play I never played in that age group. I think that you will have noticed age groups have been changing a bit. If it is to make it so that we are more like Japan gradually I do not know. (Japan is I beleive - 12 & Under, 13-17, 18+).

    Now, as for GG and Magmortar. Magmortar is pretty near dead, Empoleon saw to that. However I do agree there needs to be more room for creativity. My favor year was 2006. There were over 25 decks that you could bring to a tournament and actually have a shot with winning. Last year was decent, but there wasn't nearly as many last year as in 2006.

    I think your ideas have good reasoning however due to the fact that money issues makes this impossible to do.

    As for the Junior, I think that is more of a Parenting problem, then a POP problem. If your a parent and you do some research you would realize that your child might play for that long. If they want to drop that is thier choice not the Parents.

  4. Jaeger

    Jaeger New Member

    I agree with TheDarkTwins on Nationals, it is a National Championship there is info everywhere on that it would take that long, if your kids are getting discouraged I would suggest traveling more for Battle Roads and Cities and stay home for States, Regionals and Nationals, any time money is put on the line people are more likely to play what they know wins not to mention the tournaments are going to be bigger which means longer playing time
  5. smacktack15

    smacktack15 New Member

    I found your article nice but, Pokemon isn't just about :crushing another deck" if you are competitive. I play a deck because it has a great chance of winning the tournament (Creativity doesn't mean good). I have fun when my deck wins and I enjoy when I set an objective for myself and I achieve it. Beating G&G/PLOX cans be a goal so you play a deck to beat it, not a big deal. For your age categories, I find them wrong...

    Pre Juniors:6-11 I find that this is not a good idea because you can't play if you are under 6. Prizes should be the same across the board. Juniors is an age category that a lot of decks that aren't great will win but, archtypes will reign supreme. I would say if your children have to beat G&G, help them create a counter deck because that solves the problem (even Masters are in the same boat)

    Juniors:12-16 This is practically the same as seniors. My brother (11) just entered SRs this year and win almost every tourny he goes to (or he will come 2nd). Age doesn't matter but, the older crowd usually seems to dominate.

    Masters:17-25 I think this is a weird idea. I don't find any problem in the Masters age category. The young people usually come out on top or have no problem blending in. I am a new Master (16 years old) and I have won multiple Cities, Battle Roads and I have top cutted and placed high in tournaments like Regionals etc. I have no problem with age.

    Seniors:26+ Drew said it, PUI/POP won't pay extra for another age category. This just lets adults have an easier chance of winning and letting extra-competitive adults win (leaving poke-parents behind).

    I am seeing where you get at but, G&G is basically over for next year so just worry about Kingdra now.
  6. NoPoke

    NoPoke New Member

    In order to compete at the very top your children need to be able to play GG or magmortar or Empoleon or LBS or Speedtrode or R-GON any of the other top decks. They don't have to actually PLAY that particular deck but they have to be able to play it. It is only by actually playing a deck that they can learn how to alter it to best fit their own play style or to find out if it just doesn't suit them at all.

    There is plenty of room for creativity once you have understood how the top decks work.

    GG is not a ticket to victory. Nor is Magmortar nor Empoleon. It is probably worth adding that there are very few truely creative deck builders in this game, but that does not mean there is no room for us mortals to tune and tweak and add our own take and twists to the standards.

    I'm confused about the age groups you propose. You say there is a problem with a 12 year old competing in the current age groups yet you propose to widen them :confused: I must be missing something obvous.
  7. afstandopleren

    afstandopleren New Member

    We'll just see what will rule the Metagame with the release of LA.

    Kingdra just looses badly from :lightning Pokemon.

    Anyway, a better way to solve the unbalanced/unfair metagame in my opinion is to ban the certain deckslists.
    I think that would only incourage playing with more creative and personalized decks.
  8. Zyklon

    Zyklon New Member

    It's a good idea in theory, but remember that there is difference between children - I think many kids would get frustrated if they only were allowed to use un/commons.
    My little brother, who is ten years old, is one my country's (Norway) best juniors. He would be mad if he had to play in other tournaments than me, and especially if he was not allowed to use rares. To make a Dewgong-deck instead of a Garchomp-deck would take the fun out of the game for him.
  9. PokePockets

    PokePockets New Member

    Thankfully, one thing will stop all of the metagaming, and it is called the format change, also luckily, it's only like 2 months away. Creativity will blossom again, and Pokemon IMO will most likely go back to normal.

    Great Article by the way, however i don't know if i totally agree on 4 age divisions, how ever maybe the age brackets can be changed.


    Well GnG will be out of the format next year so you do not have to hear them complain for that much longer. Your idea even though it is creative would never work.
  11. Team Cook Mom

    Team Cook Mom New Member

    Age Divisions:

    First of all, your proposed age divisions are very close to what they actually are now (except that you've added a fourth division -- for parents mainly, and you've switched Masters and Seniors). Currently, the divisions are as follows: Juniors=10/11 and under; Seniors=14/15 and under, and Masters=everyone else. Children come with different skills and abilities. Some kids are more advanced than others, some are more competitive than others. This will always be the case no matter how they are divided. I have seen some 5 year olds read better than some 10 year olds. So, should we divide children by their reading or math skills, too? I think not. I believe the age groups are as they should be.

    Secondly, I don't think we need a fourth/parents age group. If parents are just playing for fun because their children are playing, and don't really care about the prizes, why should they care what the prizes are? A lot of Masters actually want the scholarships -- even the parents. Just like the children, Masters players will have different levels of competitiveness. You can still play for fun, and if you happen to win a scholarship, use it for your children.

    Adding another group, or making any kind of change like you propose (changing the age groups, rules and prizes) would just complicate things from an organizers point. It is not necessary. The age goups and the prizes are great just the way they are.


    Nationals is a BIG event. Managing the time/schedule for the day is something organizers of big events always struggle with. You want to do what's right, but there is no perfect solution. To run the appropriate number of rounds, you have to have X amount of rounds (or there will be complaints). Unfortunately, to do that, makes for a very long and exhausting day (there will be complaints, too). You add another day to the tournament schedule? Make it two days of Swiss and there will be complaints, too. My point is that there is no perfect solution to this. Parents just have to realize what this event is all about. You have to decide whether to let your children play in it or not. My guess is, if your child is a casual player, it may not be worth it to participate in Nationals. There are lots of other smaller events for him. I think it's great that PUI allows even the newest players into Nationals, so that a casual player can still play and participate in the biggest Pokemon tournament ever. As exhausting as it is, it really is a lot of fun! But, if it's not fun for you or your child (because it's too long or horrific), then, it's not for you. Remember that you don't have to play in Nationals, and if you do, you don't have to play all your rounds. You can drop at any time. Your day doesn't have to be too long.

    I was playing in Masters, so I didn't notice some of what the parents were saying about the time and flow of rounds in Juniors and Seniors. I imagine it was prolonged by the Masters, but if there's a way to improve that, you can bet that PUI is on it.

    I'm not sure where you're from, or if you've ever been to Regionals, but in our area, most of our parents feel that Regionals is a very long and exhausting day. We get a lot of drops before the last Swiss round in Juniors. This is perfectly fine. At least those kids got to play and participate in a great tournament, and in the end, only the more competitive players remain. We sort of get the best of both worlds.

    Lack of tournaments

    I have to disagree here, too. There isn't a lack of tournaments. You mention the seven tournament series, but there's really more than seven tournaments. How many City Championships are ran in your area? How many Battle Road events? Add all that to Prereleases, and there's always something going on during the Pokemon season. The only dry spell is the time between Nationals and Worlds. It's a nice little break for the organizers (most of who run events locally, anyway, so it's not really a break) and also a nice break for the families who want it.

    If you want more tournaments, look locally. Ask your local organizers. Even league leaders can run "fun tournaments" with different formats to encourage creativity. You want a "no rares" format (fun-- we had this in the Prof Cup this year), talk to your league leader or local organizer. Your suggestion will be met with more enthusiasm if it comes with an offer to help with it. Sometimes, players want so much, but don't realize that there's a lot of work involved in running these events. Your help will be much appreciated, and will be a big step towards getting what you want out of your local Pokemon Organized Play program.


    I didn't respond to the first paragraph because it just seemed so off the wall. To not allow players to play the same deck in another tournament is utterly unrealistic. It would be a nightmare to enforce. Players wouldn't like it -- they get attached to their decks, lol. Parents wouldn't like it -- spending more money for cards to build even more decks.... Organizers wouldn't like it -- a tremendous amount of additional work, for what? creativity??? Then, you'd have to determine what constitutes the same deck. So, if one trainer is changed, is that now a new deck, or do you have to have a certain percentage of the deck different, to qualify as a new deck. And, then, what if...... never mind!
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2008
  12. The Captain

    The Captain New Member

    Really i guess i can understand where you're coming from. But those ideas would really annoy alot of masters players which make up most of the player base( just look at nationals attendance and even locals in most areas). And there is always room to be creative just don't expect to win unless you really know what your doing. Even if you make a no rare tourney with enough of them, a broken deck will surely emerge just, just like GG. Really if you want to play "for fun and creativeness " just stick to league.

    As the saying goes "if you can't stand the heat get out of the kitchen"
  13. mrdraz07

    mrdraz07 New Member

    There's no way POP would ever enforce a You-Can't-Play-This-Deck-More-Than-Once rule. The set rotations hurt pocketbooks already.

    I sense your biggest problem is that there's a lack of creativity in running a deck that does well. This couldn't be further from the truth. Most of the people that play the big metagame decks adapt their playstyle to the deck they're playing. More often than not, it's the player that wins, not the cards. The only reason Gardy/Gallade decks are doing so well this season is because people think vice-versa. This is especially true in the younger age groups because the younger ones are much more impressionable. They want to emulate success of a given deck because the deck's success has already been proven.

    People approach the game from very different angles. Going to highly competitive events like Nats expecting kids even in Juniors to express creativity and imagination is next to impossible.

    Those age group breakdowns you proposed are also slightly ludicrous. The card game is recommended for ages 10 and up, so having an allowance for 5 or 6 year olds to play seems out of whack. The age jumps are way too far apart to keep competitive players interested, especially in your 12-16 age range. Having prize support divided among 3 age groups and having no entry fee for any of their events already hurts POP and PUI enough, let alone a fourth. And as for making a tournament stretch over 2 or 3 days, it just costs too much money for all parties involved.

    It's understandable being upset about your children suffer, but it's just the way it is. You're lucky your son plays a game where there's much more friendly competitive spirit as opposed to Magic or Yu-Gi-Oh. I'm sure you wouldn't be happy hearing your son say, "I need $1,000 for my deck so I might be able to win." Or getting into riots over who stole what.
  14. Kiss_n_Fire

    Kiss_n_Fire New Member

    I have read all the above responses and I pretty much figured it would go this way. I was merely stating my opinion. These responses all coming from the Masters division. But, isn't Pokemon supposed to be about the children? Someone said something to the effect of "who cares about creativity"....well, my children do. My husband and I (moreso my husband) are great deck builders and build our childrens decks which do fairly well. My husband played Magic for years and he understands deck building and all that stuff. Our kids run good decks, but THEY should be allowed to make their decks and be creative without having to worry about GnG in their divisions. As far as more was said there are plenty...where the heck do you live because in Rolla MO, we don't have many. Although I give props to my league because next week we are holding a NO RARE Tourney so our kids can be creative. My family and I have spent thousands of dollars on Pokemon cards for our KIDS!!! Did we just have 600 bucks laying around to go to Nationals? NO...but we did what we had to do so OUR KIDS could attend and play in something that they love. My all in all reason for this article is that Pokemon needs to get back to the CHILDREN...not the adults. Thank you for your responses...and yes, I know those things will NEVER happen...they were just my thoughts and ideas that I chose to express.

    Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

    "In order to compete at the very top your children need to be able to play GG or magmortar or Empoleon or LBS or Speedtrode or R-GON any of the other top decks. They don't have to actually PLAY that particular deck but they have to be able to play it. It is only by actually playing a deck that they can learn how to alter it to best fit their own play style or to find out if it just doesn't suit them at all."

    My son played Magmortar and did wonderfully, but gave it up because he was tired of the same old thing. No creativity with the deck. Just a straight shot build energy and crush deck. My son is now playing a Glaceon/Vaporeon/Empoleon deck and he rather enjoys it but he is 9 yrs old and wants to try out new things all the time. I do understand where you are coming from about playing the decks so that you know how they work...I think that's a great idea. If you know how it runs you can better understand how to counter that deck. Thanks for your response.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2008
  15. MrMeches

    MrMeches New Member

    As a parent that has been doing this awhile, I understand your irritation towards the process and how sometimes it seems stagnant do to decks. I give you a possible solution which is what my son (14 and playing for a good 5+years) and my daughter (10 and just getting into it compettively) do, build fun inventive decks for League Play and League tournaments and Competitive decks for Main Events.

    Demetre has always had his own playstyle even though dear-old-dad tried to make him play my way. When he started creating his own things, his playatyle rapidly took on its own direction and he started finding combos in those fun decks that worked for him. Eventually, these combos started winning tournys and he topped cut for a while. Sometimes he plays something fun at smaller events (Battle Roads and Cities) just to break the monotony. INterestingly enough, he does well with those.

    POP and PUI are ALL about hte kids so I never discourage any Parent to bringtheir child to events, Nats or otherwise. If duringthe event you notice the child beginning to get discourage or upset, allow them to drop and do the side events. Side events are where many kids build realtionships that endure... I know in Texas (Team Cook Mom can Amen this) one of the most spread out states there are, many of our kids have friends all over. Houston, San Antonio, DFW, El Paso... Now I am not saying that it counters the expense of the trip, but it does promote the FUN that some are looking for. Those long days can be fruitful if managed correctly and you will also find contacts this way! Im et a friend at World's from Japan and we write regularly and trade cards and just generally talk.

    Our game is ever growing and changing and Majors get larger and larger so longer and longer! If you feel this is to much, by all means the FUN never needs to leave the game.. Juniors - Masters - Staff- Parents! Next time consider the side events! I know my son and I are going to worlds this year where he has to Grind in, if he does't make it, he wants to do side events and Volunteer if allowed! Keeping them involved in all aspects helps thegame and the bonds.

    It is possible some took this as sour grapes, and I can see that vantage point. I see it as a rant a bit to voice frustrations over issues that are relevant, but unfortunately part of the game we all LOVE! POP & PUI are constantly improving and always take considerations of issues that are managable but fair to all.

    Stick wiht it and hang in there... eventually yours will start making top cuts and those long days will be for you but to them will seem like a couple of hours... get a comfortable chair and Volunteer yourself and get involved. Somtimes Kids feed off their parents and if they see your helping and having fun, it changes their mentality!

    Take Care and Hope to see you at World's and Nats next Year!!

  16. mrdraz07

    mrdraz07 New Member

    If Rolla is anywhere near St. Louis, Vince puts on some of the best events in the country, and quite a few of them IIRC. And there's nothing stopping you from finding more card/hobby shops in your area and asking them if they want to hold leagues or tournaments--it's something that's easy to do and doesn't require a lot of time. Active and caring parents like you are the kind of people that go on to become great tournament organizers and judges.

    And to be quite frank, competition really doesn't blend well with creativity. In some very rare cases (like the top 1-4% of competitive players), it works, but to get to that point is really hard and takes a long time to get to it. It stinks that it took going to Nationals to learn that, but you should always remind your kids to have fun no matter what. There's no point in playing any game if you don't have fun doing it.
  17. Lawman

    Lawman Active Member

    There are 2 PTOs in MO, you should have a decent amount of tourneys to go to. I know Vince in St Louis and that area have numerous BRs, CCs and PRs.

    If you do your homework (or ask questions of the PTOs) about Nats, you would know before you get there that Saturday is a looooooong day for all, staff included.

  18. ilikegengar

    ilikegengar Member

    Let your children build their own decks. My son has always built his own and has done well over the past many years.

    I agree with all that Team Cook Mom has said. POP runs many tournaments a season with probably several Battle Roads and City's within your reach. Encourage your league to have practice tournaments. Is there a BR or CC in your town? Our league just had a fun booster draft today.

    I too have always thought a teen age division would work well; say ages 15-18, then the adult category 19+.

    As for forcing children to play a long day of cards, perhaps we should not allow children to play sports all day at tournaments. That would eliminate a lot of Olympians and competive dancers.
    I truly see what you're saying. Bottom line, please enjoy and have fun. All children are different. Yours may need to have more breaks than others. When I'm way Pokemoned-out, my son is still up for a battle.

    best wishes.
  19. mca3

    mca3 New Member

    Kiss'n'Fire, I agree with you Completely!!! It is SO hard for anyone to step into a game that is Dominated by ONE deck! I started playing back on December 2, 2007. G/G was just in the uprising and has Dominated since. I have seen the little kids who were just having fun running Random decks with the Pokemon they liked. Then when G/G and Magmortar started Dominating te Masters, the Juniors and Seniors started jumping on the BANDWAGON to be a part of the winning team. I am from North Carolina, and Magmortar was More dominant than G/G during late Cities-States. I saw 1 junior actually win a States with DWD, which was Awesome in My opinion. But this is just Pathetic where we keep seeing the Same deck being played and winning every Week or Tourney!

    I have seen a few young kids do well with something other than G/G, like I stated above. But it seems the Next week, they were stressed into playing it to compete and have a chance to win. This seems to have the same factor on Masters aswell. I mean a there is a Few players, like myself, who REFUSE to run the Archetypes, nothing bad towards anyone else!!! I just like playing and seeing alittle, like you said, CREATIVITY!!! It is great to see any kid or adult come to a tournament and do well with a Rogue or Unsuspecting deck. It really makes me feel good to do the same.

    With that being said, I think that G/G will more than likely , and I hate to say it, Dominate Worlds! I am for one, along with a few others, who will NOT stand for that! There will be a few kids and adults at the Grinder with decks they have been preparing for this LAST chance at competeing with the best to try and get in without being part of the Majority! As in the Words of Green Day, I want to be part of the MINORITY, along with a few others who want to have fun and do well, without having to play deck that is ONLY being played to win. I mean, yeah everyone wants to win, but who TRULY has FUN running G/G??? I mean seriously, who gets a Kick out of running the same old deck EVERYday, at EVERY tournament???

    I will leave it at that, guys! Who is with me and Kiss n' fire???

    Kids, HAVE FUN! Dont let this game be ALL about winning for you!!!

  20. DarthPika

    DarthPika New Member

    Not to take anything away from that kids win, but DWD is an obvious combo, just as much as Mag or G&G, but its just not as good and to much luck.

    When they make the cards they make combo's, no they aren't an accident. Now there are only a certain amount of good combos that can be made, so saying that there isn't enough creativity because people like to use the good decks is just dumb. If EVERYONE does the same amount of testing with a deck they will probably come up with simmilar lists as they all find out what the best varient of the deck is. There is a HUGE amount of creativity when trying to build a Plox list that is ahead of the rest of them, or a counter deck to beat it. Fun decks while fun, usually aren't the most competive, and usually shouldn't be used at tourneys if you want a shot at winning. League is the place for them. As for the get back to the kids part, who ever said pokemon was for kids? If the horribly bad TV show has lead you to think that, then your very wrong. Pokemon is a great strategy game, and a lot of teens and adults like playing it for that reason. The master dev. is the biggest, and usually has a lot of older siblings of players in the juniors and seniors. Cause that dev. to feel left our or inforce stupid rules so people can win with fun decks and you would lose a lot of players.

    I'm not trying to be mean or rude, but as a player in the Masters and a Pokemon Prof. it really bugs me to see people say ban a deck because my kid can't beat it. May I suggest if you are going to worlds/LCQ to try giving them a banbliss or Leafeon/Magmortar, or perhaps Beedrill? All are fun decks to play and stand a good shot at winning.

    BTW if you haven't already, go to and take a look at the DP5 cards. I think you will find a TON of creative combos that you will be able to enjoy testing and perfecting.
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