Magic_Umbreon
Researching Tower Scientist, Retired
But at least that woudl be reason enough for stickying and people would know how to train their pokémon.
Lets talk about the bans people put on the Pokemon games
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KakashiPikachu
New Member
so wrongMagic_Umbreon
Researching Tower Scientist, Retired
First: soul dew, deoxys etc. are gift pokémon and are not fair for those who did not get the opportunity.
In-game, leftovers work on anything because that's how things work but Nintendo shows intent through item clause and wobb/left restrictions.
I reckon Ninty will ban focus sash because the potential is too high.
In-game, leftovers work on anything because that's how things work but Nintendo shows intent through item clause and wobb/left restrictions.
I reckon Ninty will ban focus sash because the potential is too high.
vaporeon
Moderator
The game is fun the way they made it. Soul Dew is not a broken item because there are other items that are more powerful that should be banned like Focus Sash because it is way too broken, but I guess people rather have their 402 attack and 150 defense sweepers have it so they can make a come back, but they won't ban it because it always works but ban Focus Band because it might work( luck is a bad thing,lets get rid of it). People say they test this but they ban the Lati@s just because there Dragon/Psychic and don't have 4x weakness. I am glad that don't. I just don't see how you can test things that randomly go off and people get mad when they get hit with a critical hit. If there was a way to turn it of they would.
I bought this game so I could play with everyone and it was going to be fun in the process but I cant do that because they have people that make the game bad because they do want to deal with Double Team, who are they to say how we can play.
I will play by the rules that the game has. The game says you can't use Mewtwo, I wont use it. The game says I can use the Lati@s and I use them. The game does not ban attacks because you think it breaks the Metagame. What exactly is the Metagame in Pokemon anyway that I keep hearing so much about.
I bought this game so I could play with everyone and it was going to be fun in the process but I cant do that because they have people that make the game bad because they do want to deal with Double Team, who are they to say how we can play.
I will play by the rules that the game has. The game says you can't use Mewtwo, I wont use it. The game says I can use the Lati@s and I use them. The game does not ban attacks because you think it breaks the Metagame. What exactly is the Metagame in Pokemon anyway that I keep hearing so much about.
Ky00ber the III
New Member
Evasion:
Look, if you allow Double Team, then it will restrict the game more than the metagame already does. Yes, it's counterable, but after countering Garchomp, Tyranitar, Gyarados and Salamence, people would rather not fit in more counters(to something luck-based no less) with just 4 moves on a pokemon.
OHKO:
I feel that OHKO moves are just another of those low-accuracy moves out there, if the sole exception that its more difficult for a definite counter other than sturdy pokes.
In anycase, if you think that Smogon is too snobbish, which is true, then don't play by their rules. Why attack them? To prove your logic and superiority on the internet?
P.S. I would be generally towards the banning of such moves because I have such horrible luck. But I'm not "OMG BAN LUCK MOVES ZOMG NO LUCK IN MY POGEYMANZ CHESS"
Look, if you allow Double Team, then it will restrict the game more than the metagame already does. Yes, it's counterable, but after countering Garchomp, Tyranitar, Gyarados and Salamence, people would rather not fit in more counters(to something luck-based no less) with just 4 moves on a pokemon.
OHKO:
I feel that OHKO moves are just another of those low-accuracy moves out there, if the sole exception that its more difficult for a definite counter other than sturdy pokes.
In anycase, if you think that Smogon is too snobbish, which is true, then don't play by their rules. Why attack them? To prove your logic and superiority on the internet?
P.S. I would be generally towards the banning of such moves because I have such horrible luck. But I'm not "OMG BAN LUCK MOVES ZOMG NO LUCK IN MY POGEYMANZ CHESS"
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garsh0p
New Member
focus sash is not even close to broken... it usually only works on the first turn of the game since you have sandstorm/spikes/stealth rock to deal with.
Cheater Hater
New Member
Where to start, where to start...
First of all, the only argument I was supporting was the "luck isn't fun" argument. In my last post I was just providing the information that I could find on a search of Smogon as an objective observer.
Second, I found some consistent arguments against allowing Double Team/OHKO's in the threads. First, the Double Team arguments:
1. Double Team was deservingly banned in RBY (only Haze/Swift to counter) and GSC (still too few counters and an already stallish metagame) and it was never changed.
2. Double Team is broken with Baton Pass, but is fine when the user has to use a moveslot to use it.
3. Everything learns Double Team, so it's impossible to predict it on any Pokemon.
And OHKO's:
1. While you can normally switch in a counter to a certain Pokemon safely, you can only be safe against an OHKO move with a Sturdy Pokemon.
2. All Sturdy Pokemon are weak against Water and/or Ice moves, making Pokemon like Lapras overpowered.
However, the main argument against change in general is that the community is waiting for Competitor (the new Netbattle/simulator) to start testing changes to the metagame.
Finally, I have some more links from Smogon (that are shorter and more recent) about the issue (here and here).
First of all, the only argument I was supporting was the "luck isn't fun" argument. In my last post I was just providing the information that I could find on a search of Smogon as an objective observer.
Second, I found some consistent arguments against allowing Double Team/OHKO's in the threads. First, the Double Team arguments:
1. Double Team was deservingly banned in RBY (only Haze/Swift to counter) and GSC (still too few counters and an already stallish metagame) and it was never changed.
2. Double Team is broken with Baton Pass, but is fine when the user has to use a moveslot to use it.
3. Everything learns Double Team, so it's impossible to predict it on any Pokemon.
And OHKO's:
1. While you can normally switch in a counter to a certain Pokemon safely, you can only be safe against an OHKO move with a Sturdy Pokemon.
2. All Sturdy Pokemon are weak against Water and/or Ice moves, making Pokemon like Lapras overpowered.
However, the main argument against change in general is that the community is waiting for Competitor (the new Netbattle/simulator) to start testing changes to the metagame.
Finally, I have some more links from Smogon (that are shorter and more recent) about the issue (here and here).
charmander rox
New Member
How could people argue about luck without mentioning the most luck-neccary move in the game: METRONOME!!!
vietgamer1021
New Member
well just wait until competitor comes out, but for now, without DT, then ppl will hafta find new strategies to defeat the metagame
since almost anyone can use DT (like feebas XD) it makes it essential for everyone to run haze/psych up right? a luck based move with very few counters that rare pokemon learn that most likely even worth teaching. i see the only decent move to counter DT would be haze (since it conters other things) and taunt (since it counters other things as well), and the occasional aura sphere which i believe onoly lucario and togekiss learn (srry if i did not adress any other pokemon).
but atttemptimng to counter OUs, theres so many OUs, which means it is not worth it to put 6 specific counters for every one of them (thats impossible with onyl 6 pokemon on ur team) or even to counter 6 OUs since there are many other OUs out there that can just get around your team. so to counter them, there must be a strategy that covers your weakness all around, which forces ppl to think more on strategy, rather than "o ill just stick a counter to *DT/minimize* and *inserts blank here* since that counters specific things
putting soemthing that counters metagross (like swampert for instance) and be taken down by grass knot, which is good to have since it is versatile and is alright/decent against other pokemon
banning moves that have few coujnters is reasonable, OU pokemon have many counters, which can be counters by strategy, not a single pokemon that only counters that
since almost anyone can use DT (like feebas XD) it makes it essential for everyone to run haze/psych up right? a luck based move with very few counters that rare pokemon learn that most likely even worth teaching. i see the only decent move to counter DT would be haze (since it conters other things) and taunt (since it counters other things as well), and the occasional aura sphere which i believe onoly lucario and togekiss learn (srry if i did not adress any other pokemon).
but atttemptimng to counter OUs, theres so many OUs, which means it is not worth it to put 6 specific counters for every one of them (thats impossible with onyl 6 pokemon on ur team) or even to counter 6 OUs since there are many other OUs out there that can just get around your team. so to counter them, there must be a strategy that covers your weakness all around, which forces ppl to think more on strategy, rather than "o ill just stick a counter to *DT/minimize* and *inserts blank here* since that counters specific things
putting soemthing that counters metagross (like swampert for instance) and be taken down by grass knot, which is good to have since it is versatile and is alright/decent against other pokemon
banning moves that have few coujnters is reasonable, OU pokemon have many counters, which can be counters by strategy, not a single pokemon that only counters that
Magic_Umbreon
Researching Tower Scientist, Retired
Imprison stops double team and minimize if it is in the user's moveset!
So I read the "why the rules aren't changing" link (to be honest, I don't consider the reasons why DT/OHKOs are banned in RSE to be germane to DP, so I'm not bothering with the third link), and, well... it came across as, "We don't want to do any testing, let's go with established precedent."
A strong feeling I'm getting reading these Smogon links is that a fair number of people on Smogon are nowhere near as plain ignorant as the 'Gym (and, apparently, Misty) is in this regard. Also the poll link was little more than a lot of "Double Team screws up the game" rhetoric without real substance. The discussion link, though, was more interesting. It's really disconcerting to be linked to these types of things, and to then read things that I agree with. Is this some kind of strategy to throw me off guard?
Heck, they even admit this much:
But still insist on a, "rules aren't changing" attitude? The only reason why that I could glean from their posts is that they simply don't want to test things, or use some moves. It's too much hassle to see if something's really broken, when you can just hide behind established precedent like it's necessarily still relevant. Arguments like this one that seriously get tossed around only perpetuate this kind of ignorance:
And god help people willing to counter some "cheap" and "annoying" strategies but not others. Let's all counter the top of the OU specifically, but let's not bother with a relatively easy-to-counter Double Team. That'd just be too much work. The metagame would be a bit too diverse for a single team to counter everything. We can't possibly have a metagame as diverse as that, now, can we?
It's also perpetuated in how they see tournaments being run:
When I've already established (and nobody's cared to even comment on) that strategy isn't necessarily a Xanatos Gambit. Skill isn't whoever can do the deepest numbercrunching. Skill is analyzing what you've got, and determining what the best options are. This leads me into the biggest myth Smogon perpetuates, summed up here:
This is sheer out-and-out bollocks. Strategy is what you get when you analyze the field, and use your skill to bend the odds in your favour. Prediction is a form of skill, but it is not such a major component of strategy. Smogon completely misses the point that anything you attempt is a strategy, even if it's not a very good one. There's no such thing as "no strategy." There is such a thing as being an elitist pig, which the anti-DT/OHKO people are being. If after considering your options, you decide that a simple strategy is best... then a simple strategy is best. It's not a bad thing when that happens.
Also, as I said in an earlier post, SDShamshel's got better points than any anti-DTer. Now, where's K when you need him...
A strong feeling I'm getting reading these Smogon links is that a fair number of people on Smogon are nowhere near as plain ignorant as the 'Gym (and, apparently, Misty) is in this regard. Also the poll link was little more than a lot of "Double Team screws up the game" rhetoric without real substance. The discussion link, though, was more interesting. It's really disconcerting to be linked to these types of things, and to then read things that I agree with. Is this some kind of strategy to throw me off guard?
Heck, they even admit this much:
But still insist on a, "rules aren't changing" attitude? The only reason why that I could glean from their posts is that they simply don't want to test things, or use some moves. It's too much hassle to see if something's really broken, when you can just hide behind established precedent like it's necessarily still relevant. Arguments like this one that seriously get tossed around only perpetuate this kind of ignorance:
And god help people willing to counter some "cheap" and "annoying" strategies but not others. Let's all counter the top of the OU specifically, but let's not bother with a relatively easy-to-counter Double Team. That'd just be too much work. The metagame would be a bit too diverse for a single team to counter everything. We can't possibly have a metagame as diverse as that, now, can we?
It's also perpetuated in how they see tournaments being run:
When I've already established (and nobody's cared to even comment on) that strategy isn't necessarily a Xanatos Gambit. Skill isn't whoever can do the deepest numbercrunching. Skill is analyzing what you've got, and determining what the best options are. This leads me into the biggest myth Smogon perpetuates, summed up here:
This is sheer out-and-out bollocks. Strategy is what you get when you analyze the field, and use your skill to bend the odds in your favour. Prediction is a form of skill, but it is not such a major component of strategy. Smogon completely misses the point that anything you attempt is a strategy, even if it's not a very good one. There's no such thing as "no strategy." There is such a thing as being an elitist pig, which the anti-DT/OHKO people are being. If after considering your options, you decide that a simple strategy is best... then a simple strategy is best. It's not a bad thing when that happens.
Also, as I said in an earlier post, SDShamshel's got better points than any anti-DTer. Now, where's K when you need him...
EeveeLover929
New Member
Alright, that's ENOUGH! You guys take this thing way too seriously. Are you all forgetting that this is a game? A game that, might I add, is designed in such a way that rules can be customized to your own personal desire to make it most fun for you? You don't have to use those clauses in your tournaments, nor do you have to join tournaments that use them. Make your own with your own rules if you aren't satisfied, and leave the other person alone. I agree with the pro-Smogon rules people here, OHKOs and DT simply suck. My Blissey went into a fight against Flint's Drifblim with 20 PPs of offensive attack (Ten for Thunder, Five for Fire Blast, and five for Blizzard), along with softboiled. I went out with two, just two sitting in Blizzard, all because I couldn't land anyhits, he was loading up so many DTs. And OHKOs, well, how would you like it if I pulled out my sweeper mastermind Infernape with a OHKO set on it and took out five of your pokemon in a single swing? I firmly believe Nintendo included those attacks to make the story easier so you could move on to the big stuff like competitive battling. I honestly believe that.
As for bans on any Legendary known to man or Wobbuffet, I'll let you in on a little secret. I hate Legendaries with great intensity, Wobbufet too. They simply make the game boring. I mean, come on, when was the last time you saw a good brawl between a Gastrodon and a Honchkrow? The point is that people abuse Legendaries to the point where they overshadow other pokemon who are just as tough if trained right, but go largely unnoticed in the long run. You all keep claiming that removing moves like DT remoe the luck factor, the fact is that it brings luck back, because if you get hit with a couple rounds of DT, then the opponent is sucking all the luck right out of it, making it far too easy for him and far too hard for you. Basically giving himself too good a chance. Let me tell you this, if I took my Gastrodon right now, somehow found a way to put it in my Sapphire version, and took it to battle Kyogre, I would sweep the floor with it, and my Gastrodon is currently in the mid 40's level-wise, completely un-EV trained. Raise it to 100 and got my EV Training done, I would stand just as much chance as an opponent with his lv. 100 EV trained Kyogre, simply because I put so much power and faith in it. The difference would be, of course, that then it wouldn't be a matter of power anymore. The fool I'm battling only cares that his pokemon is Legendary, and therefore, going to be stronger than any non-Legendary opponent it faces.
In short, the guys at Smogon aren't cowards who don't think they can take an uber. They're imaginatives who recognize that ubers are far too overused when compared to others. Simple as that.
As for bans on any Legendary known to man or Wobbuffet, I'll let you in on a little secret. I hate Legendaries with great intensity, Wobbufet too. They simply make the game boring. I mean, come on, when was the last time you saw a good brawl between a Gastrodon and a Honchkrow? The point is that people abuse Legendaries to the point where they overshadow other pokemon who are just as tough if trained right, but go largely unnoticed in the long run. You all keep claiming that removing moves like DT remoe the luck factor, the fact is that it brings luck back, because if you get hit with a couple rounds of DT, then the opponent is sucking all the luck right out of it, making it far too easy for him and far too hard for you. Basically giving himself too good a chance. Let me tell you this, if I took my Gastrodon right now, somehow found a way to put it in my Sapphire version, and took it to battle Kyogre, I would sweep the floor with it, and my Gastrodon is currently in the mid 40's level-wise, completely un-EV trained. Raise it to 100 and got my EV Training done, I would stand just as much chance as an opponent with his lv. 100 EV trained Kyogre, simply because I put so much power and faith in it. The difference would be, of course, that then it wouldn't be a matter of power anymore. The fool I'm battling only cares that his pokemon is Legendary, and therefore, going to be stronger than any non-Legendary opponent it faces.
In short, the guys at Smogon aren't cowards who don't think they can take an uber. They're imaginatives who recognize that ubers are far too overused when compared to others. Simple as that.
It provides me no end of amusement to see posts like that, which really make even the most ignorant Smogon posters look erudite. Double Team and OHKOs annoy you personally. Look past your personal annoyances and try to think about what's healthiest for the game as a whole.
Also we're taking this "way too seriously" because Pokémon is Serious Business.
Also we're taking this "way too seriously" because Pokémon is Serious Business.
Cheater Hater
New Member
First of all, those topics are old. The "rules" topic I quoted is from November, and even the newest topics are from April. I really wish I could find a topic similar to the "rules" but somewhat recent. I'm about ready to ask them on their home turf myself, but I know I'll get sliced to bits, referred to the half-year old topics I linked, and ultimately be banned there.
Again, the main thing I got from those topics were:
A: They can't do any wide-scale testing of new things until Competitor comes out (which also applies to other things, such as tiers)
B: Until that testing is done, Smogon would rather stay with what they've done before and poss, instead of opening up the metagame to everything and paring back (as was suggested in the big topic)
And now, finally, my summarized opinion:
Pokemon can not be at the level of strategy that they want (and achieved with R/S/E/FR/LG). When I look at a "threat list" they want all the "RMT's" to cover, they should realize there's no way to cover everything. That was a common complaint in R/S/E/FR/LG: "We have to cover this, and this, and especially this, so we don't have room to counter DT/OHKO's. (yet they never said the same thing about Rapid Spin)"
The main way you can "counter" anything (non-obvious) is if you know what stats they have, and that is a side-effect of the simulator! (where everything is perfect) Smogon wants to transfer this "simulator strategy" to Wi-Fi, but they want people to avoid even "legit" AR, and 99.9% of people won't continuously breed for perfect "simulator" IV's and Hidden Power (another essential "simulator" aspect). They need to separate their metagame into two parts: Wi-Fi "anything (non-Uber) goes," and Competitor "I want chess with my Pokemon." That would settle this fair and square.
I may have ranted a bit off-topic there, but that came seemingly out of nowhere, and it makes perfect sense. Now to bring it to Smogon and come back in one piece.
A side note for the lurkers: Take the previous post (not Marril), add lots of arrogance, make it anti-DT, and put a curse word in every other sentence, and you'd have an analog for about half the posts on Smogon.
Again, the main thing I got from those topics were:
A: They can't do any wide-scale testing of new things until Competitor comes out (which also applies to other things, such as tiers)
B: Until that testing is done, Smogon would rather stay with what they've done before and poss, instead of opening up the metagame to everything and paring back (as was suggested in the big topic)
And now, finally, my summarized opinion:
Pokemon can not be at the level of strategy that they want (and achieved with R/S/E/FR/LG). When I look at a "threat list" they want all the "RMT's" to cover, they should realize there's no way to cover everything. That was a common complaint in R/S/E/FR/LG: "We have to cover this, and this, and especially this, so we don't have room to counter DT/OHKO's. (yet they never said the same thing about Rapid Spin)"
The main way you can "counter" anything (non-obvious) is if you know what stats they have, and that is a side-effect of the simulator! (where everything is perfect) Smogon wants to transfer this "simulator strategy" to Wi-Fi, but they want people to avoid even "legit" AR, and 99.9% of people won't continuously breed for perfect "simulator" IV's and Hidden Power (another essential "simulator" aspect). They need to separate their metagame into two parts: Wi-Fi "anything (non-Uber) goes," and Competitor "I want chess with my Pokemon." That would settle this fair and square.
I may have ranted a bit off-topic there, but that came seemingly out of nowhere, and it makes perfect sense. Now to bring it to Smogon and come back in one piece.
A side note for the lurkers: Take the previous post (not Marril), add lots of arrogance, make it anti-DT, and put a curse word in every other sentence, and you'd have an analog for about half the posts on Smogon.
Must be a great site, to be banned for asking for the current opinion of a topic which hasn't been brought up in months. There's a difference between being arrogant with a point, and being elitist without one. Smogon (but for a small handful of posters I've read) falls into the latter very easily.
Then again, hearing that the "poll" thread was of a more common type than the others on Smogon just dropped my opinion of them a notch.
Then again, hearing that the "poll" thread was of a more common type than the others on Smogon just dropped my opinion of them a notch.
Absolution
New Member
This thread is quickly degenerating into a Smogon bashing thread.
And by the way, Spinda is banned.
And by the way, Spinda is banned.
I'm not bashing "Smogon". I'm bashing the people of it who contribute to the bans we're discussing. There are people from Smogon who have their heads on straight... but obviously I'm not bashing them.
And to be honest, the whole "Smogon says so" argument more or less breaks down when it comes to light that Smogon isn't even really doing much about it themselves for the current generation.
And to be honest, the whole "Smogon says so" argument more or less breaks down when it comes to light that Smogon isn't even really doing much about it themselves for the current generation.
Magic_Umbreon
Researching Tower Scientist, Retired
Simulators aren't Nintendo's intention. Nintendo intended every pokémon to have good and points based off IVs.
EeveeLover929
New Member
You don't seem to have caught the ultimate point of my rant, so I'll put it loud and clear, in large bold letters so even the simplest of morons could understand it (providing they can read).
YOU DO NOT HAVE TO PLAY BY THOSE RULES IF YOU DON'T WANT TO!
If you don't like them, don't join tournaments that employ them. And yes, I do have a personal vendetta against DT, but I am thinking of what I think is best for the game. Moves like DT put way too much advantage in the hands of the user. It's hard enough to actually connect a hit with a lot of the really good attacks, and I don't really find it fair that people make it even harder. If you disagree with me, well then, you're entitled to your opinion, but then don't go joining my tournaments because they will employ DT and OHKO bans. Ubers too. And don't try to sway me on it. Last I checked, the title of this thread is "let's talk about the bans people put on the Pokemon games" (way too long title btw), not "Let's bash the people who put bans on the Pokemon games and try to convince each other that our own personal preferences are the correct ones even though in the long run it's futile because there's no way to change the minds of your stubborn colleagues."
Edit: Oh, and while I agree that pokemon is a serious game, it's still just a game. No need to be striking the flints and starting flame wars over it, because that's exactly what this is a recipe for.
Oh noes, you don't like when "talking" turns into "talking negatively"? Doesn't it strike you as odd that I'm not saying, "Smogon is full of idiot losers," instead opting to attack them logically? If the bans are senseless and illogical, then mentioning this is clearly encompassed within "talk about the bans".
I mean, come on, if people are employing attacks which are hard to hit with normally, I'd think it's a very good strategy to counter that by increasing my evasion. It's not "unfair" for a strategy (especially one as risky as, "use low-accuracy attacks to kill them") to be countered. What is unfair is when a move is banned because of whiny people who can't even think of what's best for the game, instead being blinded by their own personal grievances.
EDIT: Also can you please stop posting in this thread? I'd really appreciate it if it wasn't locked because of childish trolling like that. There are valid points being discussed and new material being raised, and I don't want that ruined by you claiming that countering someone's strategy is "unfair."
I mean, come on, if people are employing attacks which are hard to hit with normally, I'd think it's a very good strategy to counter that by increasing my evasion. It's not "unfair" for a strategy (especially one as risky as, "use low-accuracy attacks to kill them") to be countered. What is unfair is when a move is banned because of whiny people who can't even think of what's best for the game, instead being blinded by their own personal grievances.
EDIT: Also can you please stop posting in this thread? I'd really appreciate it if it wasn't locked because of childish trolling like that. There are valid points being discussed and new material being raised, and I don't want that ruined by you claiming that countering someone's strategy is "unfair."
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