NO experienced judge needed, even not for CC

Discussion in 'Archive' started by Rainbowgym, Feb 18, 2004.

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  1. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    There was a topic overhere were someone got the answer of POP that a not grandfathered judge was not allowed to judge at a CC.

    I asked POP if there has to be a Prof as judge or headjudge at a premier event.
    And also why a prof is not allowed overhere to start/run a league.
    Again the answer showed me that POP is baked air. International OP is based on who shuts up is allowed to organize a CC or prerelease, NO MATTER if you are skilled.

    NO equalty, and for me this means any winner of the coming worlds will be not the World Champion. (which World are we talking about?)
    If really good players not getting the change to participate in league, CC or anything else, because the distributor is not willing to let a professor organize a CC in their region, then you can't compare your skills.
    If you can't play against other real good players, the status of National Champion or World Champion is baked air.

    This is the answer. So Canada, just juse your ex-prof as judge.

    Professors are NOT required as judges or organizers at events. We merely recommend their use, per the organizer’s discretion, as an excellent resource of rules and tournament knowledge.

    Professors are NOT granted any special privileges simply through their status. Some professors in the US are allowed to run leagues at non-retail locations that have been pre-approved by POP. International distributors are not required to do the same. Professors show their value to organizers by working with them, by being helpful at tournaments and other events. If a particular organizer does not feel that a Professor is qualified, or has other reasons that they do not want the Professor representing their events, that is their prerogative.

  2. NoPoke

    NoPoke Active Member

    RainbowGym can you tell us who sent the reply you quoted or were you asked not to give out their name?

    and as for what can and does go wrong without experienced Organisers and Judges look no further than PUI's own back yard...
  3. )v(ajin_ipg21

    )v(ajin_ipg21 New Member

    I would protest the NAME and address being online, PLEASE PM that information...
  4. Michel

    Michel New Member

    It is very clear to me that, if tournaments are run by people who don't know the game, don't follow the rules, allow cheating, ..., in other words if tournaments are run like the one of the topic mentioned by NoPoke, POP will be very quickly nothing else than a souvenir in many places.
    Same for the leagues which have to be run in a proper way to be successful.

    Don't take professors or experienced people ? Fine. But don't cry if the players are angry and don't come anymore.
    In addition to that, I don't understand why PUI don't take more care of the reputation of the game and POP.

    If they are Professors, they've already done it with Wizards, Sir. Not enough ? :rolleyes:

    Door wide open to arbitrary, with the blessing of PUI.

    Tournaments are not important enough to make clear rules about organizing and judging and try to have the best people to run and judge ?
    I think that experienced people, Professors or not, must report to the community and to PUI what went wrong at a tournament. Will PUI read it and do something ? I don't know, but the other TO/judges will have info that could be useful to prevent mistakes, and the community will be aware of what happens in places where they maybe want to play.
  5. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    If it was an official response, I'm OK with the name, but not the e-mail (unless it is an address published for public use by PUI). If it was a personal response, then I agree with IPG.
  6. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    I was very upset about that email, it's a free guard for distributors to do what they like.
    The answer is not private because the email was send to [email protected] and [email protected]
    I was not requisting for having benefits, I only want the same oppertunities as others. Also a request for clear rules.

    The answer came from Dave Schwimmer, so it's pretty official don't you think.
    They don't read our emails very well, if they react you get most time a standard email.

    I even heared today that if a store wants to buy Dragon boosterboxes at that same distributor, they only get them if they also buy boxes from older series. So if you want only Dragon forget it you have to help them clear their warehouse if you like it or not.

    Also something which made me laugh, the only few who are invited to organize a CC.
    They got an email starting with, WE (distributor) think you are qualified to organize a City Championship.
    To hear that out of the mouth of a distributor who even didn't know that sealed was palyed with 6 boosters, that have states there are only 7 different types of energy and so an.
    Again I send an email to POP, because they offer only 1 booster pricesupport for each player attending on the CC. So you never can give avay a full box to nr1 of each agegroup unless you have the worlds largest city event ever.
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2004
  7. P_A

    P_A Active Member

    Man, what a joke! So who do we believe? Dave Schwimmer or Steve McLaughlin? Can we get a concensus here? It's too late for my City Championship, it's already over, but how about the next set of CC's this weekend and into next month? Next question, I do understand there is some inequality with events in North America, and those internationally. And there are somewhat of the same situations in league play with availability of promos. My question is WHY? Is there some sort of underlying problem that makes this inequality necessary? I suppose we'll never know the real answer, but doesn't it sound rather unfair? As a community, is there anything we can do?
  8. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    I really don't know what to do anymore. As long as a distributor has the only and last word about
    - Who can organize an event
    - Who can run a league
    than there is no hope for this country, the 2 most experienced TO's are ignored (and with them 100 players)

    I don't believe the official sources anymore and go on my own way. There is no equalty and the change to make this right is time after time attacked on this board. I asked several times to make public all support for premier events. PTO's got upset about that, instead of thinking they could help with makes official suppot public information the worldwide community.
    First Jack Narrod send us the International OP handbook and international League program, and then POP says the distributor can do whatever they want, they are not obligates to the rules.

    POP international asked for feedback and if you give feedback (and it was negative feedback because of the lack of knowledge of our local distributor) then you are the bitten dog.
    If you ask for equal rules, they are not home. They always answer with, ask your local distributor.

    We are seen as *itches , but everything we suggested is appearing to be right.
    We asked them not to do this and try to do that, because we have contact with most of the remaining players and are dealing with this game for years.
    But they laughed at us, calling us names and banned us from OP/League, telling lies about us to PUI.
    But worst of all they don't have a clue what this game is really about. Only salesnumbers is what counts.
    If you only want salesnumbers, just be distributor but don't be Head OP of a country, leave that to people who care about the game.

    If anyone has a suggestion how to make things equal I'm all ears, but really I don't have much energy left for this.
    I just like to play, I want my players to have acces to leaguematerials. I like to organize premier events, so that our local players also have a change to experience that. But I can't because the local distributor doesn't like me.
    So if events are not official possible, we are unofficial, but still have the largest and fastest growing pokemonclubs in this country.
    We have tournaments with over 50 players all the time. (yes without any support of OP)

    I keep on trying to arrange transportation for my players to attend to a National Championship or even to a CC (when there is one) if this is in the range of 100 miles away.

    There is absolutely no reason for this inequality, it's only a matter of personal disaffection from the local distributor to us. So as they claim to be the professionals, they should put that disaffection aside and be proud that we saved this game and still are supporting it and meaby listen to us.

    I have one arrow left and that's going into court, because there is not only inequality between OP worldwide, but there are also differences between who gets leaguematerials and others things between people National.
    National I can do something, by making it a lawcase. International I can't.
    But incase I have to shoot the last arrow, it will be acompanied with public information in the newspapers. And PUI/POP and the National Distributor will get the kind of reviews they deserve.
  9. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    Last edited: Feb 19, 2004
  10. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Rainbowgym: You have our full support to bring issues like this out. It was when it bled into many other topics that it was an issue.

    As far as this issue goes, get it all out here. This does not bode well for international and people do need to see this.
  11. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member

    Okay I am trying to be very careful again on what I post...

    procrastination_alley poses some questions with the comments:

    I don't believe we can until such time as PUI starts really taking this seriously.. That means a Professors Programe that identifies and developes Judges and that is backed up by a policy of NO Professor NO Premier Event.

    well we had the answer from PUI,

    So the organiser rules ...

    Well the reason we seem to be seeing is MONEY! PUI are offsetting the cost of International OP and Leagues by making the Distributors pay. They do get a case discount but that depends on sales more cases shifted more discount to offset the cost of OP.

    The trouble comes when PUI and the distributors ignore those of us that know the local player base and market and start wasting money on big showy events and then crash and burn because the advertising is poor, the website doesn't list the international leagues and tourneys and the events are run by people who do not know the game.

    So Lena's distributor is desperate to recoup money ploughed into OP so they impose restrictions to get their money back.

    Here in the UK the league kits are being robbed of cards and the OP provider is cutting back on the support .. yet they are wasting money on a venue for UK Nationals that they will probably never fill!

    And yet approaches to PUI to talk about these issues are knocked back and there is no communication channel for most of us.. A few are favoured and that is devisive. It may not be the insiders fault but never the less PUI has divided our communities and is doing a bang up job on killing the game internationally.

    There is no reason for the inequity between International and the US, but it does mean PUI can just walk away without ever having to talk to us.. just pass us back to the distributor.. even if it is them we have an issue with!

    And PUI have people who are supposedly working on International well that seems to mean talking to the distributors only..
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2004
  12. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    Even if I want to pay for the leaguekits I don't get them.
    Even if I want to buy boxes I don't get them.

    PUI international, don't make me laugh.
    I did send an email months ago to become distributor in our country.
    Just like was suggested on the PUI website, mail us.
    My name was under the email, but I made the request for the company I'm in the management .
    I never got a reply on it.
    why I will never know, but for me it proofs the lack of interest in Europe.
    I'm not taken serious, not as professor but also not as business partner and that made me think.

    There are a few directions this can lead to, but as it looks now OP will not grow in this country if things stay this way. They largest playergroup is ignored and product is bought Global.(and I'm not talking about a few boxes)
    So no money in the national distributors pocket to support OP and that's their own choise. So if they complain that there is no money for OP or descent prize support I can only think guess why?
    We had a complete plan made for starting 20-30 new leagues, but due to the attitude of PUI and the distributor I trashed it.
    This plan could only work if we became distributor or if we could make good arrangements (read product delivered on time and enough) with the national distributor, but this became a dead end.

    There are two things regarding Pokemoncards. There are stores just selling them and there are players of the game. At this point, stores are selling but are not interested in OP/league anymore after the lack of support/backup given by the distributor the past years.
    The stores my company wanted to start leagues for, are not doing business with the national distributor.
    They refuse to be involved in/have contact with that company. (so I'm not the only one having problems with this distributor)

    So what remained is a small group of players ( I think 180 at the most in the whole country).
    Around 100 of them play in our 2 clubs (+ 1 league) who are denied for league but still following the official rulings, the other 80 just do whatever they like. (read wizards rules mixed with PUI, only unlimited).
    We tried for over 2 year to convince these locations to follow modified or at least teach their players modified, so that we could have a larger playersfield. That didn't work, so trying to get all international noses in one direction is only a dream.

    At least POP had something right, there is indeed to much history between some of us and the National distributor. But I never expected that a distributor prefers to let a game die than say sorry and act professional, leaving personal matters out of this.

    Time will learn were this ends, but untill today each thing we told what would be the scenario if this distributor is in charge became truth. And that will give me not much hope for the future.
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2004
  13. Michel

    Michel New Member

    Rainbowgym, I know we're far from Amsterdam, but I'm sure you know you're always welcome with your players at our tournaments in Brussels !

    These are official (as long as I can work with our distributor but things are on a good way), run and judged by a Professor you've already worked with ;)

    I think PUI has a quite special relation with the european distributors. As they have no office outside the USA, they have to work with them not only for the distribution, but also for all the other things, like POP.
    If they 'attack' them, for example to defend a poor Prof, they take the risk to have a worse relationship with the distributor. And that relationship is more important for them than a judge or a TO (money, money !).
    Giving all the responsibilities and decisions to the local distributors prevent them of eventual conflicts with these distributors.

    Of course, POP can fail in Europe because of that, especially with games like YGO and Duel Masters. But the PUI has taken the decision of working like that, and unfortunately, I don't think they'll really listen to us, at least not now.

    On the other hand, we're focused on the OP. But are players so important in Pokemon sales ? I'm not sure, but I'm sure it costs money to the distributor.

    Like in has been said in other topics, once again we're in front of a lack of (or no) communication from PUI. And I may understand that some people in Europe and in other parts of the Worlds have the feeling that PUI don't care about them and our game in these countries.
  14. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    I just wanted to clarify something in case this is referring to TC. Our access is pretty much limited to our rulings meetings. We don't get anything else discussed with us and we don't get to bring up these kinds of issues except in passing in between rulings. But we try our best.
    The thing is, our contact is not in charge of these things.

    Now, if you were referring to how PTOs get more detailed announcements and access to info regular TOs don't get, nevermind.
  15. ukpokemonpro

    ukpokemonpro New Member


    I am not attacking any insiders by they TC, PTO's, uncle cobbley and all.. what PUI seems to do is talk to some not all and only on their terms.

    Indeed I just got reply to an email to [email protected] yet Lena has not! The communications between PUI and Int' TOs is terrible I have offered a soloution I wonder if they will accept it?
  16. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    Pop and Pro

    PTO's are choosen by the National Distributor, and unfortunatly they crowned theirselves as PTO.
    March 6 will be the date of truth for them. We will attend with 15 people to their huge prerelease event, on which they expect 150 players (don't know were they will find them). I was not intending to go there ( I wanted to go to London). But as I can make it I will go there with my boys and 2 or 3 other players of my club. So each agegroup will be players in and I hope that players of the clubs will go home with all prices.

    Overhere it looks like, there is no difference between TO and PTO .
    I don't mind others being PTO as long as they know the inns and outs and try to stay updated on rulings.
    But letting an organiser who only plays unlimited (wizard rules) and who is going to arrange a CC at his homeadress incase not enough players show up is not a the kind of organiser for a CC I would think of.

    Players are not the large cashflow in sales? If the game is promoted well they could be easily good for 40% of the total sales. 99% of the citizen in this country doesn't know the word TradingCardGame, so they also don't know it is a game. Overhere there is a bad taste on Pokemon. Cards were stolen in the past, kids cheating, retailers were knocked out by angry parents. So most of them don't want league anymore.

    If OP is set up structured it will grow, but it will take time. Time which is now lost in nowhereland.
  17. farbsman

    farbsman New Member

    I am a little confused, what does this or the last 4 or 5 posts have to do with Judges at City Championships?
  18. SD PokeMom

    SD PokeMom Mod Supervisor Staff Member

    I think it has to do with the fact that experienced judges are being excluded from participating in official OP/CCs at the whim of the distributor?

    A CC at a private residence?! o_O

  19. PokePop

    PokePop Administrator

    Didn't take it as an attack at all. Remove any anger from the voice you hear in your head while reading my post. None was intended. It was, as said, a clarification. I completely agree that PUI has limited their lines of communication.
  20. Rainbowgym

    Rainbowgym Active Member

    Fabsman - It's all connected. Judges, TO's PTO's, players and sales.
    But most important for all of us, is that there is no worldwide simularity for each "status"or"event".

    Why was a not grandfathered prof in Canada not allowed to judge at a CC and why can someone picked of the street
    judge a CC overhere.
    Why can a professer in the US start a league without having a connecting store, and we profs can't.
    Why does North America has form to fill in to apply as PTO or for organising an event such as a CC.
    Why don't we have PTO's at all.
    Why is there pricesupport difference between North America and Europe.

    For me as prof quality counts more than quantity. I prefer to have 40 players playing a good game and a qualified judge. Than 150 players not knowing what to do and a judge who never played a card in his/her life.

    Everytime I post something about what is happening here, some mouths fall open wide. They don't believe what I'm telling is really happening. They can't imagine how hard we have to work for our players.(and without any help, support of the official source).
    But in my eyes TO's, Leagueleader and PTO's and players overseas get all the benefits on a present tray (free translation).
    As in person I'm not jalous about that, but can anyone imagine I like to present the same benefits to my players too?
    To be honest how many leagues should survive overseas without having promocards, CC, Prereleases, advertising and support?
    Can anyone understand how it feels that 100 players are not having a CC nearby, just because a distributor doesn't like the skilled people organising anything in that area.

    Yes there is a CC announced at a private residence and yes tournaments are played from private residences. And yes there are sanctioned tournaments as unlimited while they follow Wizards playingrules.And yes I'm still asking myself what I'm doing here, it takes a lot of energy to post in a strange language.

    You know were I'm most afraid of.
    I have a few very very very good players, but if the distributor is in charge at the National Championship. I think they are not going to be judged/treated fair, because they are my players.
    I hope this never happens, but everything I did foretell about how OP was going to be rolled out in this country became truth.

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