Pokémon TCG: Sword and Shield—Brilliant Stars

Official Ban Gardevoir for Worlds 2008 Discussion

Status
Not open for further replies.

Scizor

New Member
Gardevoir from Secret Wonders has been one of the most dominant cards in one of the most dominant decks of all time since its release this season.

History:

It started off by winning multiple City Championships shortly after its release along with another popular deck at the time, Magmortar/Typhlosion. When Great Encouters was released, many players (including myself) thought that the release of Claydol, Pachirisu and other cards would at least make it so other decks could compete with Gardevoir/Gallade. This became true to an extent. GG still won the majority of State Championships but Magmortar decks weren't too far behind, with some even taking out GG in top cuts. Banette decks popped up as well. With the release of Claydol they were able to pump out Banettes more consistently and constantly OHKO Gardevoir and Gallade. It looked like just maybe the format was fine, I mean we would surely see Magmortar and Banette win some Regionals, right? Uh.....

Regionals 2008 around the country saw a sickening number of GG variants at the top tables. Here in California, it wasn't even that popular beforehand and yet it completely dominated the top cut at the Sierra Nevada Regional. It won nearly every Regional in the Masters division in the United States. It seemed like a lot of the top players decided to go with GG for this event series, so maybe that had something to do with it, but still, after the success of Magmortar/Blaziken and other things at States, players were able to more readily prepare their GG and came out on top even more often. That's ok, we were getting a truly amazing set before Spring Battle Roads started: Majestic Dawn. It would definitely "fix" the format and Call Energy would allow many decks to setup quicker and be able to deal with Psychic Lock, right???

Spring Battle Roads saw a lot of Empoleon variants win. Empoleon was the next "big thing" and its matchup with GG was tolerable. During this time an event some of you may know of, called the "Lafonte Open" was held in Chicago where Pooka from this board won with Empoleon/Bronzong (DING DONG!) against a field of many top players. This seemed to spring a new archtype and after Pooka's success against GG during that particular tournament, many felt like we would see something else win U.S. Nationals. After all, people had to be holding their "secret decks", right???

While many top players used something other than Gardevoir/Gallade at U.S. Nationals in Masters, including but notlimited to: Eric Craig, Chris Fulop, Colin Moll, David C., Mike Pramawat, Ben S., Bobby Malec, Erik Nance, Ross Cawthon, Steve Silvestro, John Silvestro, Jimmy Ballard, Omar I., Alex Brosseau, Frank Diaz, John Kettler, Tyler Ninomura, Chris Bianchi, Andrew K.,, Luke Reed, Kyle Sucevich, myself and many others, the deck was still seemingly everywhere. With that many good players using something else, GG wasn't going to win U.S. Nats, was it really?

Guess what? It did! And it was 3/4ths of the Top 4 in Masters. It caused many, many headaches for the judging staff, players and friends alike. The deck was able to legitimately take a 3-5 minute turn often, resulting in several time extensions, stalling, etc. It was hard to beat the deck on time. You had to play different versus it. For example: I had to set up a Magmortar Lv. X with my deck vs. GG Round 3 just so I could Flame Bluster something for a prize to win the game on time, just because my opponent's turns were taking forever. I had to completely alter my deck's stategy. This changes the game for the worse. While I did go 2-2 versus GG at U.S. Nationals 2008, my two losses came at the worst times: the last round and top cut. I'm sure this was near the same for many. But hey, the deck doesn't warrant a ban? Does it? I think it does.

Counters:

Gardevoir/Gallade has had many counter attempts come against it. The most played and perhaps best counter all season have been Banette variants. Banette/Gyarados/Cresselia, also known as "Arithmetic" by Jimmy Ballard was able to take a Regional played by Erik Nance and placed in several others. Even then, Banette did not "autowin" versus GG, but was able to take it down at a higher clip than anything else previously. Still, as previously mentioned, GG dominated the majority of that event series.

Then, came Banette/Blissey at U.S. Nationals 2008. While Banette/Blissey had been around since Secret Wonder's release, the deck had been revived (it was a card!) for Nats, with a huge focus on Crystal Beach and Cessation Crystal. This would prove to be effective as many GG ran little to no Windstorms or counter Stadiums. Beach and/or Cessation would end up locking the GG player, allowing the Banette player to overwhelm them. Unfortuantely, GG still won Nationals.

The many GG counters throughout the season have not dominated nor won more than GG because they can't beat everything else. They can't even beat the majority of everything else. They also have not won a lot because there is no deck that can just autowin versus Gardevoir/Gallade. With Psychic Lock and Team Galactic's Wager, there is always a chance you can win a game with GG.

Top 5 reasons why GG is broken:

1. Psychic Lock: This should be fairly obvious, but shutting off Poke-Powers is a broken part of Gardevoir's lone attack that also does damage. The effect is also uncounterable, meaning that you can't stop it or turn it off with any card. Your best hope is to draw into every trainer/evolution you need without using powers.

2. Psychic Cut: Gallade's sickening ability to do lethal damage to every pokemon in the format but Wailord on turn two is simply bad for the game. It is also often able to get 2-3 or more of this attack off per game. Sometimes even more due to the use of Sonic Blade prior to knockout.

3. Dusknoir: Dusknoir is a disgusting aspect of Gardevoir/Gallade because it is abused in this particular deck more than any other deck could possibly abuse it. Dusknoir's Dark Palm Poke-Power keeps your opponent at a three-bench all game long, or you get off an insane turn and return an attacker or support pokemon (Claydol) and ruin their field. This is particularly annoying when combined with Psychic Lock. Not being able to "explode" while you are not able to use Poke-Powers is quite unfair and unbalanced. Add Dusknoir's attack, Hard Feelings to the mix and you have a card that doesn't even allow anyone to make a comeback. Hard Feelings is able to just place 10 damage counters (100 damage) when your opponent is down to one prize. This often results in the deck's last prize and is impossible to stop.

4. Team Galactic's Wager: When combined with Psychic Lock and Dusknoir, Wager is broken. Shutting off Poke-Powers and limiting your opponent to a three-bench with a possible three-card hand is ridiculous. This is also often game-breaking if played on turn two or three with a Psychic Lock. The opponent can sometimes just "draw dead" and basically lose the game right there. On top of this, it is impossible to build or try to surprise a GG player because of Wager.

5. Time: Gardevoir/Gallade is perhaps the most abusive of the clock of any deck in the game's history. With its ability to take long turns with the use of a Supporter, Telepass, Cosmic Power, Dark Palm, and before Great Encounter's release, Keen Eye, the deck is able to take full advantage of swiss rounds in particular. Often, opponents get a mere 8-10 turns vs GG in swiss rounds at the most. The deck is also frequently able to get a prize when time is called very easily, resulting in several wins on time. It is also able to win nearly every sudden death game with ease. When matches go to a game three in the top cut, GG is at a monster advantage because it can simply just get an early Gallade and take a couple of prizes with Psychic Cut to win. This is basically impossible to stop early on in a game considering Gallade has 130 HP.

6. Bring Down: Ah, the wonderful Gardevoir Lv. X and her cute little Bring Down attack. This move adds even more problems for opponents in games. You've got their Gallade(s) to flip all their prizes in the game, their Psychic Locks are only doing 50-60 damage and that's not enough at this point, Dusknoir is only going to swing for one prize late, and you're up in the game! How do you lose? Your pokemon all have less HP and can be Brought Down! Oh no! For a mere double-psychic cost, Gardevoir Lv. X is able to draw late prizes or early ones. I even remember I lost a game because my opponent got a T2 Gardevoir Lv.X and brought down both my Baltoys while I tried to set up Claydol at a State. Try stopping that!

Yeah, I said I was doing a Top 5, it turned out to be 6, that just shows how broken the deck is!

Possible bans/restrictions besides Gardevoir:

1. Dusknoir and Crawdaunt ex: Dusknoir makes the deck truly disgusting when combined with the other broken combos in GG. By banning it, you would eliminate one of the most frustrating and unpreventable aspects of GG and the format. Of course, you would also have to ban Crawdaunt ex as it is still broken when combined with Team Galactic's Wager and Psychic Lock. Although it's attack isn't as effective as Hard Feelings, Crawdaunt ex would still be annoying and lame.

2. Gallade: Psychic Lock would still be a powerful deck, but without the use of its big hitter, the deck wouldn't be dominant. Gallade makes for donking the opponent an option, it wins sudden death and it is basically uncounterable as well. This would be a good ban.

3. Restricting Gardevoir and Gallade: What I mean by this is that you wouldn't be able to use both Gardevoir and Gallade in the same deck. They would have to be in separate decks. This would make it so you don't have the broken combo together. It is truly unbalanced that both can fit in a deck and come from Ralts/Rare Candy or Kirlia.

Conclusion:

My Name is Chad Harris and I've been a part of many other decks besides Gardevoir/Gallade this season. I've helped and was one of the first to win with Blaziken/Magmortar, was responsible for many's success with Leafeon/Magmortar at U.S. Nationals, and many rogues throughout the year. I played GG once this season, at Regionals and I didn't win the whole thing with it, but let me tell you, I was disgusted when I played it.

When a player like Mikey F., who got 4th at U.S. Nationals this year says he wants the card/deck in Gardevoir banned when he even used and won a trip/invite to Worlds 2008 and $1,500 in scholarship, you know something is truly wrong. When a player like Drew Holton, who got 2nd at U.S. Nationals this year says he wants the card/deck in Gardevoir banned when he even used and won a trip/invite to Worlds 2008 and $3,000 in scholarship, you know something is truly wrong. When every player, good or not so good has tried to counter the deck all season long with little success, you know something is truly wrong. When a card/deck is garnering comparisons to such broken decks as Feraligatr (Neo Genesis) and Slowking/anything, you know something is truly wrong.

There is still slightly over one month until Worlds 2008 occurs. There is still enough time to do something. Thanks for reading.
 
i agree completely

the biggest part of this is gardy/gallade takes 5 minute turns that eat up the clock. With Gallade's psychic cut able to take a prize at will, it is WAY TO EASY for a plox player to manipulate the clock and stall out an opponent to win on time. We have developed decks that can beat plox but those decks can't finish the job in under 30 minutes and would lsoe to gardy on time in a tournament situation

never has there been a card that has been able to abuse the clock to the extent of gardy
 
Dude, Come on!!! A BAN on a cards like this is Foolish! I mean, you know Banette beats it , right??? RUN BANETTE!!!
I am, along wit ha Few techs! Yes, this card is Very Powerful, I PREFER Gallade to be Banned, but that is dumb too. I am not trying ot be mean, but their are cards out there that beat G/G, Banette is a OBVIOUS one. CRYSTAL BEACH is another. Run Garchomp, it is a GREAT match up against G/G and it slows them down with Crystal Beach!

But this is just adding insult ot injury, this is NOT going to happen!!! PLEASE reconsider! I am a ROGUE player, but Crying about a Stupid card inst going to do any good. Just wipe off the tears, and COUNTER the deck. Believe me, if you make a Great Rogue Counter to G/G, it will DEFANITLY stand out over Any G/G deck Winning!!!

-Michael
 
in testing it has been proven that banette does not have an auto win against gardy.

In a side event i was down 5 prizes. In 1 turn i ruined the whole game for the banny player with dusknoir.
 
Goodness...and I thought I ruffled feathers. After much thought and consideration I have come to the conclusion that it shouldn't be banned...just dealt with and teched against. It's rough, but a new season with new cards is about to emerge. So no..banning is not the answer...teching and roguing against it is.
 
Nothing has a AUTOWIN over anything if it is a Good Built deck! Infernape has beat Empo. Empo has beat Electivire. Electivire ha beat G/G. It all depends on the Build of Each deck and the Player, of course!!!
 
I can only speak for my area of Ohio but one reason GG was not quite as dominate in the Spring BRs was simply because it was not played. Most players took the low points value BR as an opportunity to test some of the new cards from Majestic Dawn.
 
A ban on cards would be stupid. It would be a step in the wrong direction IMO. The thing that keeps Pokemon different from games like Yugioh is that they ban and restrict cards, and we don't. We can play 4 Gardevoirs if we want! The last thing we want is to be like Yugioh, huh? :p (No offence to any Yugioh players out there). Gardevoir is just as fair as that FRLG pidgeot, and the holon engine. You just need to work around it. ;)
 
I don't think POP will ban G&G/Plox. They are just too stubborn. As well as that it wouldn't be fair to the players who can't go to worlds because they had to deal with it all year, so banning it for 1 tourney wouldn't do much.

Look at what happened at the professor cup when they banned Wormadam. Breloom, Donphan and Masquerin took over. When they ban G&G/Plox Empoleon will take over.

I am not going to worlds and really don't care if it gets banned for that reason but I'm just saying, POP probably won't banned the deck, maybe just errata Psychic Lock.
 
Nothing has a AUTOWIN over anything if it is a Good Built deck! Infernape has beat Empo. Empo has beat Electivire. Electivire ha beat G/G. It all depends on the Build of Each deck and the Player, of course!!!

Can you please STOP acting like you're the best rogue player ALIVE? And STOP with the exclamation points after EVERY post? If a rogue beats it, WHY DIDN'T IT WIN ANYTHING ALL YEAR?! You think the top players haven't TRIED! Read my post again!

We have DEALT with the deck all SEASON people. I'm playing in Worlds and I'd like to play against SOMETHING ELSE! Is that a freaking crime?

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

A ban on cards would be stupid. It would be a step in the wrong direction IMO. The thing that keeps Pokemon different from games like Yugioh is that they ban and restrict cards, and we don't. We can play 4 Gardevoirs if we want! The last thing we want is to be like Yugioh, huh? :p (No offence to any Yugioh players out there). Gardevoir is just as fair as that FRLG pidgeot, and the holon engine. You just need to work around it. ;)

Working around it hasn't worked all year. Slowking has been banned before. Wizards of the Coast also had a restriction on trainers back in the day. Gardevoir is up for ban discussion. It's more wrong that Gardevoir was even printed.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I don't think POP will ban G&G/Plox. They are just too stubborn. As well as that it wouldn't be fair to the players who can't go to worlds because they had to deal with it all year, so banning it for 1 tourney wouldn't do much.

Look at what happened at the professor cup when they banned Wormadam. Breloom, Donphan and Masquerin took over. When they ban G&G/Plox Empoleon will take over.

I am not going to worlds and really don't care if it gets banned for that reason but I'm just saying, POP probably won't banned the deck, maybe just errata Psychic Lock.

You just proved my point. Thank you. You said it wouldn't be fair to players who can't go to Worlds. Well, the players who have got an invite, DESERVE better than this format for working around it all year. It WILL DO A LOT! We'll have something ELSE win!

You also proved another point of mine in saying that when Wormadam was banned, those others took over. That's better than ONE deck taking over! You listed THREE! Empoleon would NOT take over. Mark my words. Empoleon is not on the same level as GG.
 
Last edited:
Slowking was different. Almost nothing could beat a good slowking deck. Gardevoir can be taken down. Try Mismagius. No one ever sees it coming. ;)
 
It really is hard to beat Gardevoir in swiss. The only way you really get a chance to do it, is pray you get a time extension and call a judge as soon as you see ralts hit the field. The abuse of the clock ridiculous. Personal example, Round 2 of Nationals, time was called on my opponents turn with a prize count of 4-4. Guess what happened? Bring down for the one random prize. Gardy decks take so long to play and when you combine it with people trying to play slower than they normally do, i wouldn't be surprised if many games ended up like this one. Gardy makes the game come to this "pray that time gets called on your turn, else you lost"
 
I am in NO shape or form saying I am the Best Rogue player, I dont even think I am any good, to be honest. But, Seriously dude, jsut like the others have stated, BANNING will jsut cause a Huge fuss. I mean that is Ruining the game, Next format is going to be pretty good, that I have seen so far. I jsut think, we as a Group that feels like this, should all try to put our heads together and build something to Counter this Monster!

Dont get mad at me, dude! I am trying to help, buy giving you some advice on NOT giveing up on doing somehting Grand. Wanting to Ban a card, is jsut taking the EASY way out, its a Low way of thinking!
 
Dude, Come on!!! A BAN on a cards like this is Foolish! I mean, you know Banette beats it , right??? RUN BANETTE!!!
I am, along wit ha Few techs! Yes, this card is Very Powerful, I PREFER Gallade to be Banned, but that is dumb too. I am not trying ot be mean, but their are cards out there that beat G/G, Banette is a OBVIOUS one. CRYSTAL BEACH is another. Run Garchomp, it is a GREAT match up against G/G and it slows them down with Crystal Beach!

But this is just adding insult ot injury, this is NOT going to happen!!! PLEASE reconsider! I am a ROGUE player, but Crying about a Stupid card inst going to do any good. Just wipe off the tears, and COUNTER the deck. Believe me, if you make a Great Rogue Counter to G/G, it will DEFANITLY stand out over Any G/G deck Winning!!!

-Michael

RE Banette: It doesn't autowin. Gallade can flip over one prize with a scramble or two with a DRE and kill a Banette. Combine that with a Wager and the Banette player is often stuck with an unplayable hand and no way to come back. You need a Lake Boundary or two PlusPowers/Strength Charms to one hit a Gallade, and even then, Dusknoir can start one shotting Banettes after you've taken three prizes. Banette also has a horrid time against other decks, which is why it was played with Blissey at Nats, and even that doesn't assure good matchups.

RE Crystal Beach: GG decks are going to start running more counters now just because of that. Almost no one played Beach/Cess, so there was no reason before, but now Windstorm and counterstadiums are going to be included because Beach and Cess are actually a threat now. Aside from that, against many decks that play Beach, you can simply wait an extra turn to attach another energy and not lose out on much since Gallade basically has unlimited damage potential.

RE Garchomp: This deck has a huge problem with Dusknoir, and in addition to it being notoriously inconsistent, that equals a bad GG matchup.

RE Rogue: There have been GG counters, but as addressed in the original post, they just can't win in 30 minutes. For example, I played RG (Leafeon/Magmortar) at Nationals and lost two games to GG on time that I could have won in a few turns.
 
To keep telling me, one of the most experienced and long-lasting deck builders to keep trying stuff I've already tried (like Mismagius) is a joke and not helping this situation.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

It really is hard to beat Gardevoir in swiss. The only way you really get a chance to do it, is pray you get a time extension and call a judge as soon as you see ralts hit the field. The abuse of the clock ridiculous. Personal example, Round 2 of Nationals, time was called on my opponents turn with a prize count of 4-4. Guess what happened? Bring down for the one random prize. Gardy decks take so long to play and when you combine it with people trying to play slower than they normally do, i wouldn't be surprised if many games ended up like this one. Gardy makes the game come to this "pray that time gets called on your turn, else you lost"

Amen! I see nobody has tried arguing that it isn't unfair in swiss.

Back to back posts merged. The following information has been added:

I can only speak for my area of Ohio but one reason GG was not quite as dominate in the Spring BRs was simply because it was not played. Most players took the low points value BR as an opportunity to test some of the new cards from Majestic Dawn.

Exactly. I also know several good players in Ohio and it is one of the best areas for deck innovations in the entire country.
 
Last edited:
I understand, Bobby! You know that I hate the deck MORE than anyone. But Banning is a Bad way to think about countering any deck. Just like a few others said, their is Mismagius, Banette, Garchomp, I mean it all depends on what to play , ithink a FAST Eevees deck would do well against G/G with!
 
I understand, Bobby! You know that I hate the deck MORE than anyone. But Banning is a Bad way to think about countering any deck. Just like a few others said, their is Mismagius, Banette, Garchomp, I mean it all depends on what to play , ithink a FAST Eevees deck would do well against G/G with!
you'd be right if you had a hour to play 1 game.
 
i guess its easier for us worlds players to sign a paper stating that we wont play GG instead of POP banning gardy/whatever.
but in the end of the day, we know that both wouldnt happen (even though i'd easily sign such "document")
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top